Redside... Best side? Right??

[UltraAlt]

5 minutes ago, Rudra said:

How would that help? And wouldn't that kill red side's identity?

 

No comment. I don't want to get myself in trouble.

[SupaFreak]

21 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

No comment. I don't want to get myself in trouble.

 

I have a feeling what that's related to.  It's hilarious to me the way it was pulled off.

[Ace Jones]

I first started playing when CoV released and always leaned more red side in terms of preference, but generally found more game time blue side.

 

I think part of it was to do population/availability of teams. The other was there was just less content overall so there is the same natural amount of user engagement (but overall I'd say red side content is better quality).

 

I think there's lots of potential options, but being pragmatic I think going after shorter term goals is better initially than trying to go after something as a big as a new zone (which would be cool but not small undertaking).

 

Some ideas from me:

 

1. I think I'd try and make Mercy a bit more of a natural hub similar to Alta's Plaza. Atlas Park is always full of folk from multiple levels whereas red side it's generally silo'd into level appropriate zones. Red side needs it's 'hub' and for me Mercy fits better as, like Altas, it's accessible level 1. Adding a second black helicopter that's actually a contact launching 'raid' style mission arcs across multiple level ranges could be one idea. E.g. starting with pushing Longbow back and eventually striking at Paragon City locations, tiers of the arc unlocked as you level creating a natural flow of traffic in the zone.

 

2. Add another TF in the mid level range, again I'd likely make this a contact in Mercy, maybe by the Widows tower or something.

 

3. Red needs more GMs, GM hunts are popular blue side but there's only a handful of red. Lore wise I think there's scope to build on existing models, e.g. add a Wailer GM to St Martial as some kind of event where it's trying to attack the Giza.

 

4. Reds would benefit from some more zone events like the Hellion Arson in Steel Canyon. Maybe something like a Snakes outbreak in Mercy/Oakes and Mongoose sends you off to blow up the nests they're popping up from or something.

 

5. In terms of a 'new' zone, I'd consider opening Croatoa up to reds as a co op zone. It's Lore kind of fits into it's own box, could be reached via sub, opens up the Katie H TF and adds 2 more GMs into the list reds can reach.

 

 

 

 

[Phosphorus015]

Speaking only for myself I play almost exclusively red side, out of my 60ish characters I think about 50 of them are villains or rogues. I like red side's content and atmosphere a lot but the lack of other villains is pretty noticeable. I think the major thing that red side lacks more than anything is content variety. While red side has some of the best story lines in all of CoX, from basically every contact in Sharkhead to the entire Destined Ones plot and of course the radio, I think it lacks variety within each of it's zones and it's got a very small number of zones compared to blue side. More content in general for red side would help improve player numbers there but that's not exactly an easy order to fulfill. I think in terms of the content I'd like to see would be more direct competition with heroes. Red side spends a lot of time setting up villainous plots for the the destined one only for them to fall through at the last act. If there was more fulfilling endings to some of those plots that involved opposing heroes, directly or indirectly, it'd be better. The Cult of the Shaper story arc is a really good example of this since it ends with the destined one(s) becoming super powered and taking on a full team of heroes, it's very good at fulfilling the fantasy of being the villain.

[twozerofoxtrot]

1 hour ago, Ace Jones said:

3. Red needs more GMs, GM hunts are popular blue side but there's only a handful of red. Lore wise I think there's scope to build on existing models, e.g. add a Wailer GM to St Martial as some kind of event where it's trying to attack the Giza.

 

This is a fair point and I agree that a Wailer GM would be fun.

 

Off the top of my head, I can think of only 3 GMs on Redside: Deathsurge, Caleb, and the Grandville Flyer.

 

Two of those require pretty annoying hunts to spawn and two fly around for a bit before despawning, making them difficult to engage with.

Edited January 27 by twozerofoxtrot

[Lunar Ronin]

10 minutes ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

 

This is a fair point and I agree that a Wailer GM would be fun.

 

Off the top of my head, I can think of only 3 GMs on Redside: Deathsurge, Caleb, and the Grandville Flyer.

 

Two of those require pretty annoying hunts to spawn and the other two fly around for a bit before despawning, making them difficult to engage with.

 

There's also Ghost of Scrapyard, who is incredibly easy to spawn by defeating 100 Scrapyarders.  A new GM for St. Martial has been suggested here before, and I agree.  It could really use one.

[Darmian]

12 minutes ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

Off the top of my head, I can think of only 3 GMs on Redside: Deathsurge, Caleb, and the Grandville Flyer.

Scrapyard?  Then again you did say off the top of your head.

[Darmian]

Watching Scrapyard attempt to leap from a roof on to a Rikti Drop Ship that blasted him during the invasion was kinda funny.  I think he even did it some damage before it flew off.

[twozerofoxtrot]

2 minutes ago, Darmian said:

Scrapyard?  Then again you did say off the top of your head.

 

Hah, yeah that did escape my recollection despite being the most common one.

[Ace Jones]

GM wise I think Blues have access is nine:

 

Adamastor

Babbage

Eochai

Jack in Irons

Jurassic

Kraken

Kronos Titan

Lusca

Paladin

 

Also Sally gives a GM badge

 

Reds have the four mentioned above, and there's a few more both sides can get to via events etc.

 

Do think a new Red GM would be the next logical step, zone wise hadn't considered the new patch bringing Striga into red scope which helps on that front.

[Grouchybeast]

Purely my own person experience, not trying to generalise.

 

I mostly solo and duo.  When I'm duoing, my duo partner doesn't like being a villain and doesn't like redside's gloomy aesthetic, so we start characters goldside or blueside.

 

When I'm soloing, the main reason I don't roll a lot of villain is the broker system.  There are now enough good easily accessible arcs blueside that I can run a character through them without doing many radios, unless I particularly want to get one of the older contacts.  Redside I always seem to be doing broker missions and sometimes almost outlevelling the contact before I even get to them.  And on top of the brokers, there are a bunch of contacts with unlock requirements.  It's just fiddly and awkward, and feels like a bunch of make-work filler to hide the relatively lower number of arcs redside.  It's not as good a gameplay experience for me as blueside or goldside.

[Coyotedancer]

18 hours ago, Ace Jones said:

5. In terms of a 'new' zone, I'd consider opening Croatoa up to reds as a co op zone. It's Lore kind of fits into it's own box, could be reached via sub, opens up the Katie H TF and adds 2 more GMs into the list reds can reach.

 

 

That's a lake in Salamanca... 🤣

 

That said, I'd look towards the Shard zones as potential co-op areas, myself. They're huge, gorgeous and ridiculously under-developed. There's a lot of potential there. 

[Vic Raiden]

Kinda bumping this, but yeah, I do agree more co-op content would be neat... just as long as it doesn't pigeonhole villains into clearly heroic jobs.

[Clave Dark 5]

Not to attack anyone who's proposed it, but how would more co-op content boost villain numbers on red side itself, really?  The Aeon strike force is already "new red side content" and people just farm it and swap right back.  We need ways to get people to start and stay on redside... not that I have any ideas how.

[golstat2003]

x5 the xp on red side one day a week. Other than that I have no idea how you get folks to play reside more.

Edited January 30 by golstat2003

[SupaFreak]

30 minutes ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

Not to attack anyone who's proposed it, but how would more co-op content boost villain numbers on red side itself, really?  The Aeon strike force is already "new red side content" and people just farm it and swap right back.  We need ways to get people to start and stay on redside... not that I have any ideas how.

 

That suggestion was a jest for someone thinking it would be cool if all of Praetoria were level 50 Co-Op, I believe.  Not a bad idea, but Paragon Studios should have done that before releasing Going Rogue with a new threat keeping it high stakes instead of low-stakes shambles.   I know it's far-fetched in real life for a power (or country to the east) to be overthrown by a local power only to have a resurgence of the old power come back and reclaim their power and oppress their people.  😎

Sorry with disrupting - but did not want that joke reply taken serious earlier.  STAY ON TOPIC! 

[Clave Dark 5]

Even that aside, my question still stands, how would any new content get people over to a side they already don't play on, without that risk it just turns into a swap farming expedition?  New GMs?  Who runs on red side just for GMs? 

 

The only idea I can think of, which is already too late and wouldn't fly, would be to re-segregate the ATs: you want a Mastermind?  Play redside up to say level 30.  And yes I know that's a joke!

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

Even that aside, my question still stands, how would any new content get people over to a side they already don't play on, without that risk it just turns into a swap farming expedition?  New GMs?  Who runs on red side just for GMs? 

 

The only idea I can think of, which is already too late and wouldn't fly, would be to re-segregate the ATs: you want a Mastermind?  Play redside up to say level 30.  And yes I know that's a joke!

At least on Everlasting, there are periodic giant monster hunts. And those hunts hit up both red side and blue side. So more GMs aren't going to do it either because pretty much everyone I've ever seen on those monster hunts goes vigilante long enough to complete the hunt, then they go back to blue side as either a vigilante or hero. (For that matter, I've watched players pop over red side when it is announced a red side GM is up, take down the GM, then immediately go back blue side.)

 

Edit: Most likely, at least as far as I can tell, the only way to get players to go red side and actually play instead of just visit for a few GMs, is to make content they want to play there. However, the biggest problem with that is not content quality, but content... uhm... content.... As has been stated by a few individuals already, they have no interest in playing a villain. They have no interest in playing a rogue. So the quality of the content doesn't matter, what matters is that the content is outside of anything they are willing to play/experience. (Edit again: And it doesn't matter how big an XP or inf' multiplier is provided. Regardless of 1 day or 1 millennia. They refuse to play the content and no reward/incentive will get them to do so. So acceptable content would need to be made, but why would there be heroic content in the City of Villains? And if there were, how would you prevent the Rogue Isles from just becoming Paragon City II in order to cater to them?)

 

(Edit again: And increasing XP and/or inf' gains won't really help either even for those that are at least willing to play red side. All that would do is make it possible for them to schedule when they will play red side. Bonus gains for 1 day? Okay, they'll play red side for that day. One week? They'll play that week. Let them know when the next increased XP and/or inf' incentive is active again so they know when to pop over and get the increased rewards. That isn't conducive to increasing the red side player base except for the duration of the increased rewards. And that doesn't seem to be the goal to me.)

 

(Edit yet again: I should probably point out these comments are not aimed at you. Your post just gave me a launching point. Sorry.)

Edited January 30 by Rudra

[Vic Raiden]

Once again, true that. People have their comfort zones, and most aren't comfortable being the villains of their own stories. But on the other hand, given it's really not uncommon for viewers to actually enjoy seeing the bad guys in action (if not outright cheering for them)...

...

... Maybe that's one solution? Note how redside contacts, with a handful exceptions, tend to treat players like deniable associates at best and downright garbage at worst. But if there were more people like Dean MacArthur, who actually do get along with the player and don't act like their bosses, perhaps that'd be at least a little less discouraging.

 

There's also these well-discussed older ideas of creating 1-50 arcs which could let one actually realize themselves as an independent player in the Rogue Isles instead of being a minion for hire, but I'm not going to reiterate them.

[SupaFreak]

So, on my original response I made no suggestions on what I think *may* or *may not* help grow the villain population... but it's got me thinking the last few days.

 

I like what you're doing with Striga... and I think it would be wise to continue to moving in that direction for Redside by "expanding their reach" to Hazard Zones.

 

I mean, they are 'hazard' zones for a reason.

 

Maybe next step, let them step into "The Hollows"?  (Note the following should probably go to it's own Topic, but I'll leave it here for now)

 

How would that be feasible you didn't ask?  Well, I'm quite the ignorant on Lore in CoH but I know what love is.... I mean, I know how to read the text of a Badge and observe things.

 

"Backwoodsman" from The Hollows mentions the area being saturated with mystical residue from the Circle's spells.

 

What if some aspiring Mage of theirs found a way to connect from a location in Mercy Island such as the remote island located in Screenshot snippet attached below at the /loc shown in top right corner?  

What if all the sudden a contact sends you to a Circle mage in the Hollows and there's a mystic portal there surrounded by CoT mystics that will take you to a 2-way portal in the wooded area of The Hollows?

 

You step through the portal into 'The Hollows" and quickly find your Circle contact awaiting you?  He leads you on an arc of 4-5 missions, followed by 4 other mystics or something that give you level 5-15 content away from the Rogue Isles in a familiar setting.

 

It could be related to Igneous.  It could be related to Legacy Chain.  (I noticed they're present in that back area of Hollows now.)  It could be tied somehow to Karsis and the Cavern of Transcendence.

 

But all the sudden you have 5 new arcs and a new Trial ONLY for Villains/Rogues to start (Vig can join?) to counter the Karsis one ONLY for Heroes/Vigilantes (Rogues can join?).  How that could tie into the whole story arc there, I have no idea because I'm seriously an idiot who doesn't pay attention to Lore - no, seriously - I don't!  PLUS this a more visually pleasant setting for those that have a distaste for the Rogue Isles and would ease that bitterness some.

 

And then in upcoming Issues, you start slowly expanding Red-side's reach into Perez, Boomtown, Terra Volta, Crey's Folley and basically any Hazard Zone not mentioned... creating 1 or more new story arcs for both sides in zones currently without contacts?  Or maybe Villains get new SFs in those Hazard Zones and the Heroes stay as is?  Yea, that sounds better.

 

Villains can't do Hero Missions in any of the Hazard Zones & vice versa for Heroes inability to do Villain missions but Rogues & Vigilantes could join any.

 

Then people playing Red Side start feeling more like the Best Side because the "zone-count" superiority Heroes used to have over Villains has begun leveling out.

 

But this doesn't populate Rogue Isle zones, Supa... which is the goal.  Not directly... but indirectly it might.  They gotta have somewhere to go after completing the new bad-ass content & SFs they can't do as Heroes.  Y'all gonna keep crawling on all fours to Null the Gull and beg that bird to make you a pansy again or you gonna suck it up and stay put in the Isles for a whiles?

*shrug*  It's a thought.  Good or bad?  Who am I to say?

 

Edited January 30 by SupaFreak
I need to proof-read at 1:15 AM

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, SupaFreak said:

I mean, they are 'hazard' zones for a reason.

Well, yeah, but they are hazard zones because of how entrenched the various factions present there are resulting in very large spawns. The problem with red siders accessing the hazard zones is they aren't connected to anything conducive to the red side players sneaking in. (Except maybe Terra Volta since it is in a port zone.) While the Hollows is near water, it is on the other side of the war wall with no ports. Makes accessing it by submarine relatively problematic. Not impossible by any means, but those war walls are intentionally... erm... difficult to bypass. Setting lore and the map layout aside? Adding villains to hero zones (or heroes to villain zones) is very likely going to result in a push for putting PvP in those zones. (And I am very against adding non-arena PvP to any PvE zones.) (Edit: You need to understand that the co-op zones have a central threat with a unifying faction calling for heroes and villains to set aside their differences and work together to survive. The hazard zones have neither. [Edit yet again: For instance, the Igneous in the Hollows aren't out to conquer the world or destroy it. {Edit yet again: Well, not entirely true. Igneous is planning to attack Paragon City....) They were simply disturbed by the Trolls' blasting and the Circle's investigations. So despite being the primary foes in the Cavern of Transcendence, they are basically minor players in the events of CoX.) (Edit again: And even if villains could access the hazard zones? The players that are not willing to go red side? Won't care about the new villain missions beyond "why are there suddenly Destined One villains in the hazard zones?!". They don't like or want anything to do with villainous content.)

 

2 hours ago, SupaFreak said:

Karsis one ONLY for Heroes/Vigilantes (Rogues can join?)

Yes, rogues can join. While I don't think they can form a Cavern team and lead it, they can definitely join.

Edited January 30 by Rudra

[SupaFreak]

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

While the Hollows is near water, it is on the other side of the war wall with no ports. Makes accessing it by submarine relatively problematic.

 

That's why in my suggestion I went with a mystic portal to a remote island on Mercy Island near where Villains start off.  I knew a gate or submarine or anything along those lines wouldn't work.

 

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

For instance, the Igneous in the Hollows aren't out to conquer the world or destroy it. {Edit yet again: Well, not entirely true. Igneous is planning to attack Paragon City....) They were simply disturbed by the Trolls' blasting and the Circle's investigations. So despite being the primary foes in the Cavern of Transcendence, they are basically minor players in the events of CoX.)

 

Again, as someone who has barely a teaspoon of CoH Lore in their spice rack of knowledge - that part of the reasoning for possible interest in the Igneous in an arc isn't up to me - it's the challenge for someone on how to get them involved.  Something related to them the Circle wishes to use in a ritual?  Is there a relic the Circle want that's surrounded by Igneous?  Etc, etc.

 

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

Setting lore and the map layout aside? Adding villains to hero zones (or heroes to villain zones) is very likely going to result in a push for putting PvP in those zones. (And I am very against adding non-arena PvP to any PvE zones.) (Edit: You need to understand that the co-op zones have a central threat with a unifying faction calling for heroes and villains to set aside their differences and work together to survive. The hazard zones have neither.

 

Are people asking for this with the Villain access expansion into Striga that I'm not aware of?  I personally don't see it as a full-fledged Co-Op zone in the sense of RWZ and DA of what's being added in Page 7.  I don't even like that pure Villains or Rogues can start Moonfire TF as they're capable of on Brainstorm - but as one not real privy to Lore, who am I to complain?

 

And to give justification as to why PvP in proposed selection of Hazard Zones will ALWAYS BE A NO-GO there ---> No real organization has your back there, at least not in the PvP zone aspect of the word.  To both Heroes and Villain ----> No one there fully trusts either of you, so best just keep your heads cool and leave each other TF alone.  TF being a metaphor for challenging moral Task Force, right?

 

And hey - it's all just a Suggestion and Feedback on what it would take within reason to get someone like me to delve more into playing RedSide.   If that's not the point of this Topic - I'll shut up now - otherwise - there's my 3 cents (I found an extra one on the way to this reply so now you've been granted a bonus penny on any mission to discredit the credibility of this thought- your lucky day!)

 

 

Edited January 30 by SupaFreak

[Paradox Fate]

10 hours ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

Even that aside, my question still stands, how would any new content get people over to a side they already don't play on, without that risk it just turns into a swap farming expedition?  New GMs?  Who runs on red side just for GMs? 

 

The only idea I can think of, which is already too late and wouldn't fly, would be to re-segregate the ATs: you want a Mastermind?  Play redside up to say level 30.  And yes I know that's a joke!

 

There's a few things that could be done:

 

- Add a Positron TF equivalent to Port Oakes that players can start at Level 8, possibly finishing it with about level 15 (with Double XP on). Make it a non-signature Strike Force, so the enemy level matches either the leader level, or it's SF cap. This would smoothen the lull between Mercy and Cap, as you have to rely on Paper Missions to get contacts there or unlock them via 'Find Contact' tab (and the only one you would get in PO would be Veluta Lunata, which otherwise requires the Pirate badge to unlock.)

 

- Speaking of PO and it's lull of contacts : Make Mr. Bocor one that requires no introduction, since he also introduces The Radio, which I think is the highlight of the zone and both keep you busy for a bit. Also expand Bocor's level range from 5-9 to 5-14, since finishing the remade tutorial with DBXP gets you close to level 9, so you might fail getting the Radio as a contact when you outlevel him.

 

- Highlight Contacts that don't need any introduction, and possibly open up a few for that in Nerva and St. Martial. It was working back on live by popping up a window and being an active contact on your tab and the map, but for some reason it stopped working for most content other than getting access to First/Last Ward, Cimeroa, reaching 35 for the Patron Arc, reaching 50 for the Incarnate Introduction, and unlocking the Alpha slot.

 

- Rework Merit Rewards on Story Arcs: Some are really, *really* low on what you should get from them.

For instance, the Vincent Ross arc - Several missions where you have to defend a location for a few minutes while constantly be pitted against reinforcements, activating runes and bombs along the way, go through a portal puzzle, and even face Barracuda herself if you decide to team up with other Contacts in Sharkhead prior to this arc. Along with a satisfying smackdown at the end against a LOT of enemies.

 

And your reward for it all : 6 (SIX!) Merits. 😕 Even the Radio in PO gives 5 for not even half the effort.

Edited January 30 by Paradox Fate

[Rudra]

4 hours ago, Paradox Fate said:

Make Mr. Bocor one that requires no introduction, since he also introduces The Radio, which I think is the highlight of the zone and both keep you busy for a bit.

Mr. Bocor already requires no introduction. Just walk up to him during his active level range and he gives you missions. I do this frequently on red side. I even re-verified just now with a brand new level 5 character.

 

(Edit: Also, other contacts that don't require introduction do get their own little pop ups red side when you reach a high enough level to do their content. The Slot Machine in St. Martial is one that does that. Just not all of them.)

Edited January 30 by Rudra

[Paradox Fate]

8 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Mr. Bocor already requires no introduction. Just walk up to him during his active level range and he gives you missions. I do this frequently on red side. I even re-verified just now with a brand new level 5 character.

 

(Edit: Also, other contacts that don't require introduction do get their own little pop ups red side when you reach a high enough level to do their content. The Slot Machine in St. Martial is one that does that. Just not all of them.)

 

What I am shown when I talked to him on level 30 on the Slot Machine:

 

Seems he still requires the 'Gangbuster' badge.