Super Strength for Scrappers please

[Rudra]

46 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Or do you all skip build up, Soul Drain and Followup too?

Yes, sometimes, and no.

[TheMoneyMaker]

2 hours ago, Haijinx said:

It's the set's damage buff.  A buff that the 1st 3 powers in the set absolutely need to do anything like competitive damage. 

 

Or do you all skip build up, Soul Drain and Followup too?

You could replace the long term damage buff with a Build Up effect and then rebalance the base damage of the attacks around that.  All the other melee sets seem to work fine without rage, so could SS.

[Luminara]

2 hours ago, Haijinx said:

It could be called "Bunny foofoo go go time" instead and it would make no difference.

 

Want.

 

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNT.

 

[Player2]

3 hours ago, Haijinx said:

"Rage" is just a power.  Getting hung up on the name is meaningless. 

 

It could be called "Bunny foofoo go go time" instead and it would make no difference. 

 

It's the set's damage buff.  A buff that the 1st 3 powers in the set absolutely need to do anything like competitive damage. 

 

Or do you all skip build up, Soul Drain and Followup too?

The name is unimportant.

 

But lets go back and look at some of those examples I cited.  The point is they're always at their maximum strength, not "Meh, my damage is adequate but let me power up my Bunny foofoo go go time..."  So call it Rage or whatever nonsense you want, thematically Super Strength is not all that super and revolves around requiring its booster seat to sit at the grown ups table.  And even if they take away the glowing aura of the power being active, there's also the issue that you have to also then devote effort to Recharge to make it perma or you suffer the power's crash effect and briefly become weak as a kitten... again, not very super and doesn't really fit with most published characters have Super Strength.

 

Thematically it's crap.  Mechanically it's different but people have always and continue to complain about it.  Name is... not so important, but it needs to go.

 

And if Rage as a long duration buff is what keeps the powerset from scrappers (and potentially stalkers), then I think replacing & rebalancing might be the way to go.

[BrandX]

15 hours ago, Player2 said:

I think this would be ideal for a Scrapper and Stalker version of Super Strength.

 

There's too emphasis on Rage as a power tied to Super Strength, when in the comics world that kind of strength really is attributed to the Hulk and his side characters.  There may be others, but they're very obscure.  Meanwhile, super strength without rage is a staple in superhero lore... but if you don't make your character a "Hulk" then you're limiting yourself.  There needs to be a non-ragey alternative.

 

 

The problem there, is Rage with it's name and flavor text, is just that, a name and flavor text.  One doesn't have to be all "My concept is RAAAAAGE!" with Super Strength 😛  Rage is just that sets version of Build Up.

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

You could replace the long term damage buff with a Build Up effect and then rebalance the base damage of the attacks around that.  All the other melee sets seem to work fine without rage, so could SS.

True if you simply doubled the recharge on jab, punch and haymaker and adjusted the scale to match, it would look a lot like Stone Melee

[JayboH]

Hyper's post sounded interesting.

[Haijinx]

17 minutes ago, Player2 said:

The name is unimportant.

 

But lets go back and look at some of those examples I cited.  The point is they're always at their maximum strength, not "Meh, my damage is adequate but let me power up my Bunny foofoo go go time..."  So call it Rage or whatever nonsense you want, thematically Super Strength is not all that super and revolves around requiring its booster seat to sit at the grown ups table.  And even if they take away the glowing aura of the power being active, there's also the issue that you have to also then devote effort to Recharge to make it perma or you suffer the power's crash effect and briefly become weak as a kitten... again, not very super and doesn't really fit with most published characters have Super Strength.

 

Thematically it's crap.  Mechanically it's different but people have always and continue to complain about it.  Name is... not so important, but it needs to go.

 

And if Rage as a long duration buff is what keeps the powerset from scrappers (and potentially stalkers), then I think replacing & rebalancing might be the way to go.

Since it's up all the time thematically it doesn't have to mean anything other than you hit hard and hit what you punch.

[Player2]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

Since it's up all the time thematically it doesn't have to mean anything other than you hit hard and hit what you punch.

But it isn't up all the time.  Not unless you build for recharge to ensure that it's up.

And then if something debuffs your recharge, boom not only are you slow but suddenly weak.  LAAAAAAME.

 

Also, thematically, it still does not have a no FX customization option, so I have to see the glow of it.

 

So no to you on all counts.

[Haijinx]

54 minutes ago, Player2 said:

But it isn't up all the time.  Not unless you build for recharge to ensure that it's up.

And then if something debuffs your recharge, boom not only are you slow but suddenly weak.  LAAAAAAME.

 

Also, thematically, it still does not have a no FX customization option, so I have to see the glow of it.

 

So no to you on all counts.

I'm pretty sure you can reach the recharge with 3 SOS 

[PeregrineFalcon]

The best thing that the Homecoming developers could do for Super Strength would be to remove the Rage up/down minigame altogether. Remove the Rage power, replace it with an attack power, and then rebalance the damage of all of the Super Strength powers. Then they could port it to Scrappers. Heck, they could even add it to a Blaster secondary at that point.

 

You want 'Rage' play a Brute. You want someone who's super strong but not a raging psycho? Play a Scrapper or Tanker.

[Luminara]

26 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

You want someone who's super strong but not a raging psycho?

 

I knew you didn't love me.

[PeregrineFalcon]

4 minutes ago, Luminara said:

I knew you didn't love me.

I did. Before you started sending nudes.

[Luminara]

5 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I did. Before you started sending nudes.

 

I see you droolin'.

[Player2]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

The best thing that the Homecoming developers could do for Super Strength would be to remove the Rage up/down minigame altogether. Remove the Rage power, replace it with an attack power, and then rebalance the damage of all of the Super Strength powers. Then they could port it to Scrappers. Heck, they could even add it to a Blaster secondary at that point.

 

You want 'Rage' play a Brute. You want someone who's super strong but not a raging psycho? Play a Scrapper or Tanker.

Also stalkers...

[Lazarus]

I'm gonna have to disagree on this topic.

 

SUPER STRENGTH should be reserved for the archetypal  "POWER HOUSE" the likes of (hulk, thing, even wonder woman)

 

but when its comes to scrappers they are the "SKILLED FIGHTER"   no one fights better than (batman, captain America) ect.

 

its also the same reason i dont want ninjitsu ported to tanks or brutes,..there shouldnt parity for all melee at.

 

some uniqueness is a good thing.

[TheMoneyMaker]

7 hours ago, Haijinx said:

True if you simply doubled the recharge on jab, punch and haymaker and adjusted the scale to match, it would look a lot like Stone Melee

It would act like stone but would look like SS.

[TheMoneyMaker]

3 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

I'm gonna have to disagree on this topic.

 

SUPER STRENGTH should be reserved for the archetypal  "POWER HOUSE" the likes of (hulk, thing, even wonder woman)

 

but when its comes to scrappers they are the "SKILLED FIGHTER"   no one fights better than (batman, captain America) ect.

 

its also the same reason i dont want ninjitsu ported to tanks or brutes,..there shouldnt parity for all melee at.

 

some uniqueness is a good thing.

Marvel had an Ares limited series during the Norman Osborn Dark Avengers arc, and in it we see one of Osborn's soldiers training under Ares observing how the god of war goes from powerhouse brute that rides a bomb Slim Pickens style down to the target then starts stalking the halls as stealthily as a ninja.  Power sets are skills and abilities and AT is how an individual chooses to use those abilities.  I'd love to see every set proliferated where ever possible and let people choose how to interpret their choices.  TW/Invul stalker would be no worse than Stone/Fire stalker, and a Ninjitsu/Katana tanker would be just a different flavor of SR/Broad sword.  SS on scrapper makes as much sense as anything else.  Definitelt makes more sense than saying tanks are power houses and can use ever fighting style but scraps can't be super strong because they're skilled fighters.

[Rudra]

12 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

I'm gonna have to disagree on this topic.

 

SUPER STRENGTH should be reserved for the archetypal  "POWER HOUSE" the likes of (hulk, thing, even wonder woman)

 

but when its comes to scrappers they are the "SKILLED FIGHTER"   no one fights better than (batman, captain America) ect.

 

its also the same reason i dont want ninjitsu ported to tanks or brutes,..there shouldnt parity for all melee at.

 

some uniqueness is a good thing.

What sets Scrappers apart from Tankers is that the Tanker is best known for his/her/their/its ability to soak damage and the Scrapper is best known for his/her/their/its ability to inflict it. A Tanker can be a skilled fighter, but tends to shrug off damage that other supers can't. A Scrapper can be a super strength power house, but tends to be more vulnerable to harm. So while it may be easier think of Scrappers as the skilled fighters and Tankers as the power houses, the differences between them tends to be a lot more grey than that. I tend to view them more in being defined by the roles they take while on a team in their comics. Superman tries to hold the enemies' attention because he can (usually) take the hits, while Batman tends to be more elusive and tactical. However, Superman has been elusive and tactical in his approach to combat as well, but when others are present and in danger, he steps in and makes himself a target. Batman has chosen to be out in the open holding enemies' attention because others' lives depended on them not being seen/attacked, but if someone else can step in and be target, Batman falls back on stealth and tactical engagement. It is how the character defaults to their approach to combat that determines if they are a Tanker or a Scrapper, and you can be a skilled fighter that chooses to be hit to demoralize your foes as easily as you can be an elusive power house avoiding being the center of attention on a team and still smashing targets.

[TheMoneyMaker]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

you can be an elusive power house avoiding being the center of attention on a team and still smashing targets.

Conan the Barbarian stealthing around as a thief, amirite?

[megaericzero]

Gonna side with TheMoneyMaker and Rudra on this.

 

All sets should be available to all archetypes that sport their category (eg: Melee, Armor, Blast, etc.) Alter or swap-out some powers as needed for flavor or balance but, ultimately, don't gate them from an archetype because you perceive that archetype as the "skilled," "powerhouse", "savage," or "sneaky" one.

 

This most often comes up with regards to Stalkers and Money addressed it well overall.

Edited March 26 by megaericzero
correcting grammar errors

[Haijinx]

The should scrappers get big cumbersome sets ship sailed even before Sunset.

[PeregrineFalcon]

2 hours ago, Lazarus said:

SUPER STRENGTH should be reserved for the archetypal  "POWER HOUSE" the likes of (hulk, thing, even wonder woman)

 

but when its comes to scrappers they are the "SKILLED FIGHTER"   no one fights better than (batman, captain America) ect.

There are plenty of comic book heroes who have super strength (more than that of a human if not as much as Superman) and are also highly skilled combatants.

 

I would argue that the DCEU version of Wonder Woman is a Scrapper with Super Strength. Yeah, she uses a sword, but she's shown to pick up and thrown an 8 ton armored car. I'd say that qualifies as super strength, wouldn't you? Her and her fellow amazons are also shown to be highly skilled combatants.

 

2 hours ago, Lazarus said:

some uniqueness is a good thing.

I agree, but the power proliferation ship has already sailed.

 

However, if they alter Super Strength as I've suggested then it would increase the available 'flavors' if you will of Super Strength. Each AT will offer a different version of Super Strength by virtue of its inherent.

[Haijinx]

The holdup is Rage and flamefests associated with Rage.

[biostem]

22 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

There are plenty of comic book heroes who have super strength (more than that of a human if not as much as Superman) and are also highly skilled combatants.

The tanker/scrapper/brute/stalker divide is, when you get right down to it, more of a gameplay distinction than anything else.  As @Rudra mentioned, it's about who gets larger HP numbers, "punchvoke", an AoE taunt, crits from a hidden state, and so on, not really about actual mechanics found in comic books.  The biggest problem, again as others have pointed out, is how to handle the proverbial elephant in the room;  Rage.  It's kind of along the same lines as why tankers haven't gotten energy aura - simply scaling the numeric values of the powers won't work out well.  For my part, I think the simplest solution is to buff up the base values of the actual attacks in SS then replace rage with buildup, for scrappers...

Edited March 26 by biostem