Super Strength for Scrappers please

[Player2]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

 

It literally has a power called Hurl Boulder

🤪 I wouldn't know.  I don't play stone melee because I don't like the visuals.

[Major_Decoy]

Honestly, Rage feels more like a barbarian power than a Super Hero power anyway. The super heroes have have anger activated powers tend to be better represented with the Fury mechanism that brutes have and before brutes were a thing, people were suggesting it as an inherent power for tanks.

[A.I.D.A.]

My main point here is that, instead of even thinking about porting Super Strength to scrappers or stalkers, first it's essential to do all the sensible changes (delete Rage, replace with Build Up, de-nerf individual attacks to bring them back into line now that it has the same amount of +%damage as other melee sets) to the existing set on the archetypes that have it.

 

If anyone is unhappy and quits over that, well. Bye.

 

This whole entire thread is a cart put before the horse.

 

Edited March 29 by A.I.D.A.

[Haijinx]

49 minutes ago, A.I.D.A. said:

My main point here is that, instead of even thinking about porting Super Strength to scrappers or stalkers, first it's essential to do all the sensible changes (delete Rage, replace with Build Up, de-nerf individual attacks to bring them back into line now that it has the same amount of +%damage as other melee sets) to the existing set on the archetypes that have it.

 

If anyone is unhappy and quits over that, well. Bye.

 

This whole entire thread is a cart put before the horse.

 

Haha

 

Hahaha

 

Hahaha hahaha 

[twozerofoxtrot]

1 hour ago, A.I.D.A. said:

essential to do all the sensible changes

Super Strength is currently one of the top performing attack sets on both ATs. It's usually in the top 2 or 3 of Ston's many, extensively documented damage tests that he put actual time and thought into.

Oh wait, did you mean essential to nerf it?

[A.I.D.A.]

10 hours ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

Super Strength is currently one of the top performing attack sets on both ATs. It's usually in the top 2 or 3 of Ston's many, extensively documented damage tests that he put actual time and thought into.

Oh wait, did you mean essential to nerf it?

 

More that it's essential to make more than one or two of the individual attacks worth using. Super Strength is built on the backs of Rage and Cross Punch, because its own attacks (save for around two whose names I can't remember right now) are mostly terrible. And they're terrible explicitly because their innate damage is low, normalized to be used alongside the buff values of permanent (and possibly double-stacked) Rage, and come out roughly on par with other sets. The fact that it's in the top 2 or 3 is absolutely Rage's fault, it's propping up a list of mostly really bad attacks -- and the outlier Super Strength builds are made with the two attacks that didn't receive the normalized-to-Rage treatment, and Cross Punch -- because a pool attack is stronger than the rest of the attacks in the set.

 

By replacing Rage with a more normalized Build Up, the rest of the attacks in the set can be made more interesting to take. But that's a Resisted Change(tm) in this community, for reasons I cannot fathom or understand.

 

Edited March 30 by A.I.D.A.

[JoeSchmoe]

I just want to hop in here and also say I want Super Strength on Scrappers and Stalkers. I think all sets should just be proliferated and anything can be tweaked/balanced.

[wjrasmussen]

On 3/25/2024 at 7:17 AM, SeraphimKensai said:

I think I proposed super strength for scrappers back in 2004.

Before COV came out?  cool story.

[twozerofoxtrot]

17 hours ago, A.I.D.A. said:

But that's a Resisted Change(tm) in this community, for reasons I cannot fathom or understand.

 

On 3/30/2024 at 7:38 AM, twozerofoxtrot said:

Super Strength is currently one of the top performing attack sets on both ATs.

There ya go!

[Videra]

8 hours ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

There ya go!

TBH a power set's design dictating that a third of it is actively worth taking is pretty cringe. None of us want super strength nerfed, we want the powers in it to be individually worth taking over pool powers.

Edited March 31 by Videra

[Haijinx]

54 minutes ago, Videra said:

TBH a power set's design dictating that a third of it is actively worth taking is pretty cringe. None of us want super strength nerfed, we want the powers in it to be individually worth taking over pool powers.

Thing is any change would reduce double Rage.  And that what the diehard supporters want to avoid at all costs.

 

Double Rage is nice, unfortunately I never had a build good enough for SS to utilize much uptime except when teaming with a kin.  And it ends up being less useful there for obvious reasons. 

 

The animations feel so old and clunky that I get board before really finishing the character. 

[A.I.D.A.]

9 hours ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

 

There ya go!

 

But it's still a three-power set. The high-end Super Strength builds skip the other six. I find it really amusing that people in this thread are all like, "Titan Weapon doesn't let me throw rocks at people," but the boulder throw in Super Strength is so, so skippable it actually hurts to look at.

[skoryy]

On 3/29/2024 at 6:38 PM, twozerofoxtrot said:

Super Strength is currently one of the top performing attack sets on both ATs.

 

Which is why it'll never get ported to Scrappers without changes to bring it in line with other melee sets.

[Vanden]

5 hours ago, A.I.D.A. said:

But it's still a three-power set. The high-end Super Strength builds skip the other six. I find it really amusing that people in this thread are all like, "Titan Weapon doesn't let me throw rocks at people," but the boulder throw in Super Strength is so, so skippable it actually hurts to look at.

 

Well, there are reasons to play sets besides performance.

[Videra]

2 hours ago, Vanden said:

 

Well, there are reasons to play sets besides performance.

 

As someone who actively plays Masterminds and Kheldians, yes, there are reasons to play a set besides performance. But there are better ways to get your boulder hurling fantasy - Earth Mastery on Controllers jumps to mind, among others.

If a set is being largely ignored for a couple of stand-out powers, namely Rage, Foot Stomp, and Procout Blow, that's something a designer should look at. I also find it funny that people think A.I.D.A is in any way suggesting to nerf the set - when bringing its base DPA up to the standards of, say, Axe or Energy Melee - would be a buff. Self + Damage is a bit of a scam when it comes to optimization. A stronger base set would result in a stronger super strength at damage cap. Simple as.

[Indystruck]

3 hours ago, Vanden said:

Well, there are reasons to play sets besides performance.

 

aight let's revert FF and TA then

 

[Vanden]

2 hours ago, Videra said:

I also find it funny that people think A.I.D.A is in any way suggesting to nerf the set - when bringing its base DPA up to the standards of, say, Axe or Energy Melee - would be a buff.

 

A buff? Not so much. Super Strength's performance is balanced just fine as-is with a single-stack of Rage. Numerous tests and maths have shown this. It's capable of some big spikes of damage when double-stacking Rage, but doing so actually hurts your overall long-term DPS because you spend more time in the crash. If you remove Rage and buff the powers to compensate, you've at best left the set exactly where it was, but by homogenizing it with the other set. Can't be surprised that people wouldn't be willing to give up something that makes the set unique, in order to end up exactly where they already were, performance-wise.

[Videra]

24 minutes ago, Vanden said:

 

A buff? Not so much. Super Strength's performance is balanced just fine as-is with a single-stack of Rage. Numerous tests and maths have shown this. It's capable of some big spikes of damage when double-stacking Rage, but doing so actually hurts your overall long-term DPS because you spend more time in the crash. If you remove Rage and buff the powers to compensate, you've at best left the set exactly where it was, but by homogenizing it with the other set. Can't be surprised that people wouldn't be willing to give up something that makes the set unique, in order to end up exactly where they already were, performance-wise.

 

No, it would be a buff.

Double stacked rage is the standard, generally speaking, and raising the DPA of each Super Strength power - including the bad ones, so basically the entire set - would be a buff in terms of optimization. You'd get far more out of a kin or snorting large reds like cocaine that way. I'm not agreeing with A.I.D.A's solution, to be frank, and I think it ascribes an intent and formula to CoH's modern design that is blatantly no longer applied.

But, objectively, the fact that Super Strength has three good powers is pretty cringe. Haymaker shouldn't be weaker Cross Punch on account of being a single target attack - Jab shouldn't be weaker than Boxing, and why does Hand Clap even exist?

Edit: Also, you spend the exact same amount of time in the rage crash. It has a fixed duration, shortening the interval between crashes does not by extension magically make you spend more time in it.

Edited April 1 by Videra

[twozerofoxtrot]

17 hours ago, skoryy said:

 

Which is why it'll never get ported to Scrappers without changes to bring it in line with other melee sets.

  

On 3/26/2024 at 4:40 PM, twozerofoxtrot said:

Even a lazy solution like giving Stalker/Scrapper SS crits that ignore Rage's damage enhancements, or half-damage crits, would work. It's not that complicated so as to require the entire set be reworked prior to a port.

 

[twozerofoxtrot]

Also for the record, I really couldn't care less what happens to SS or Rage.

I've played the set on my main since HC opened up, and back when I had no idea what I was doing with it on CoV Live (with the same main).

I just like flogging bad arguments that go nowhere.

[twozerofoxtrot]

9 hours ago, Videra said:

But, objectively, the fact that Super Strength has three good powers is pretty cringe.

Saying objectively before stating an opinion doesn't change it into a fact.
 

 

9 hours ago, Videra said:

Haymaker shouldn't be weaker Cross Punch on account of being a single target attack

It's not. Unless of course you take two other powers just to buff it, and even then it has a lower DPA.

 

9 hours ago, Videra said:

Jab shouldn't be weaker than Boxing

 

Doesn't seem wildly out of precedent to have a T1 attack be bad, but ok. I'll give it you without even checking the math.

 

9 hours ago, Videra said:

why does Hand Clap even exist?

For the same reason Ice Patch does. It's fine to have CC in an attack set? Though I wouldn't complain if it were improved, along with Hurl. I've a longstanding complaint that Hurl (and Stone Melee's Hurl Boulder) is inferior to Earth Assault's Hurl Boulder, and that the other two should be brought up to the Dom set's numbers.

[Videra]

24 minutes ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

Saying objectively before stating an opinion doesn't change it into a fact

 

I mean, it is factual, though. And Haymaker IS a weaker pick than Cross Punch on account of the inherent recharge bonus, how proccable the power is, and the fact their DPA is almost identical - one just hits more than a single target. Saying that you need to also take Kick and Boxing is a non-statement as you will be doing that if you want cross punch, it's basic logic.

 

 

The difference between Hand Clap and Ice Patch is that Hand Clap is horrible and taking it is dumb bad wrong.

 

Jab is 27 DPA, Punch is 36, Boxing is 39 and kick is 29. Cross Punch is a DPA of 47, but hits multiple targets, has better proc options than haymaker, and has an inherent 10% recharge bonus that stacks on-top of the FFB you are likely to put in there. This make's Haymaker's slightly superior 50 DPA a non-factor, unless you use it as part of your chain for another proc bomb - which some SS builds do, I'll readily admit that.

People also severely overestimate how bad the rage crash is. Procs still do full damage during it, and it lasts ten seconds - if you're playing something like Ston's test build of WP/SS, yes, you might encounter this issue more in protracted fights like Kong or Dra'gon. But playing a good armor set like Bio Armor or Radiation with SS, you're going to have proc bombed attacks quite literally falling out of your bum and will rarely if ever notice this problem.

Edited April 1 by Videra

[A.I.D.A.]

47 minutes ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

Also for the record, I really couldn't care less what happens to SS or Rage.

I've played the set on my main since HC opened up, and back when I had no idea what I was doing with it on CoV Live (with the same main).

I just like flogging bad arguments that go nowhere.

 

Flog your own arguments, then. The numbers ruin them.

[twozerofoxtrot]

8 hours ago, A.I.D.A. said:

 

Flog your own arguments, then. The numbers ruin them.

 

Post those numbers, then 🙂

 

Show me why SS needs to be homogenized to be brought to Scraps. 

 

Because it does too much damage? Oh, hey there Titan Weapons what's going on fella. Crazy you used to solo iTrials right? Anyway is that Energy Melee behind you?

 

Because it relies on 3 powers to be maximally effective? Why hello Dual Blades! Welcome to the party.

 

Just because you don't personally like what the set looks like, doesn't mean there's anything actually wrong with it. There's a sweaty army of Rad/SS tankers out there to prove it (frankly, this is what makes me roll my eyes more than say someone having Crosspunch in their build).

 

The logical leaps folks are making here for why the set doesn't go to Scraps is bizarre, and frankly doesn't square with how powers development has been approached the past few years.

 

If you're going to argue for a change to SS that needs to be made for port to Scraps, at least for goodness sake make it a new one.

[twozerofoxtrot]

9 hours ago, Videra said:

Cross Punch is a DPA of 47, but hits multiple targets, has better proc options than haymaker, and has an inherent 10% recharge bonus that stacks on-top of the FFB you are likely to put in there.

 

All obviously correct but if we're looking at Crosspunch holistically then it's frankly better than most T3 attacks so the comparison to Haymaker seems pointless. 

 

Crosspunch is a really good power. But it's not outperforming Haymaker to the exclusion of other sets' single target T3s.

 

The better argument is how doublestacked Rage gives one +40 ToHit so you don't need to slot for Accuracy in proc'd Crosspunch, either.