Copyright infringement

[waltuski]

7 minutes ago, Skyhawke said:

 

Dunno. I do remember COH cracking down on things afterwards, and rightfully so. Do we want take the risk of thinking every copyright infringement we see is an employee of " Company X"? Not a shot at you (apologies if it sounds like it), I just know for almost 5 years a lot of us have had the "servers and forums are down...oh crap, is this it?" feeling enough times to be cautious. We're overprotective, but with reason.

I thought I'd read it somewhere..

Early in January 2005, Marvel sent NCsoft screenshots of characters it claimed represented copyright infringements, but apparently NCsoft had suspicions that Marvel itself had actually created the heroes it submitted as infringing content.

In a move I’m sure no one expected, NCsoft asked Marvel whether it was responsible for the heroes it had submitted. A month later, Marvel did indeed admit it had created the heroes it alleged to be infringing in four of the images submitted with the complaint

[Excraft]

8 minutes ago, Skyhawke said:

Do we want take the risk of thinking every copyright infringement we see is an employee of " Company X"?

 

Honestly, do you really believe lawyers at Disney don't have anything better to be doing than logging into a 20 year old computer game being run for free looking for ways to sue?  Enough with the FUD already.

[Doc_Scorpion]

1 hour ago, GampoJR said:

Only difference there's no money being made off it this time around... big difference.

If you're referring to one of the factors considered when determining whether or not something is Fair Use - yes, and no.  That is one of the factors, but it's absolutely not a "Get Out Of Jail Free" card.  (And factors is the correct word here, it's not a checklist.)

And it's not really relevant here, because the thread title is wrong.  The actual issue isn't copyright, it's trademarks.  And there is no Fair Use for trademarks.

Edited February 1 by Doc_Scorpion

[Luminara]

19 minutes ago, GampoJR said:

Only difference there's no money being made off it this time around... big difference.

 

There are DC and Marvel games making money right now, which they'd potentially make less of if players were permitted to make DC and Marvel characters in Co*, so whether or not Homecoming is a for-profit entity is irrelevant from a legal perspective.

 

It's not just what someone else makes from illicit use of protected works, it's also what the owner didn't make.

[PyroNugget]

"EVIL triumphs when good men(people) do NOTHING!"

 

for the vast majority of mouth breathers, they are blissfully unaware(read:ignorant) how much damage it could cause from them making SUPERMAN or WOLVERINE to play here.

 

for others,they do it with malicious intent.they just want to watch the world burn --this is MY WORLD too

 

do not forget what it was like NOT BE ABLE TO PLAY THIS GAME and report ALL HERESY to your local Inquisitor (report to GMs)

[Sovera]

18 hours ago, GM Impervium said:

We GMs rely on community reports to help police the CoC in these instances. We do NOT allow IP-infringing characters on our servers, so we need everyone's help to help us identify potential offenders. As was said earlier, we can't be everywhere at once 😃

 

Not to demand trial by fire over a casual remark transmitted second hand, but maybe a world with that GM who said 'don't do it too often'. It transmits the wrong message as the OP showed.

[Darmian]

The ink is barely dry on the license making us legal, and this old nonsense crops up again.  

 

I am sure this will get some adverse reaction, but I sincerely ask, to every person who wants to be Arachnoboy or whoever, is your imagination not better than that? Sure, you love Arachnoboy, read his comics, watch his movies, maybe even play his licensed game on a machine/console of your choice, but here, in COH, where you can play anything you like, you can't do something uniquely yours?

 

Again with the caveat concerning genuine homage characters.

[ZacKing]

5 hours ago, Skyhawke said:

Then you read about Disney dropping the hammer on some family because they found out they used an unsanctioned Spider-Man balloon at a kids birthday party.

 

See, this is another example of people spreading misinformation in order to create a sense of panic and FUD.  Disney didn't sue that family for using Spider-Man on a balloon at a kids birthday.  They denied the family's request to use an image of Spider-Man on their sons headstone.  Enormous difference.  There was another similar case where a family wanted to have Mickey Mouse on the child's headstone too.  It was an express wish of Walt Disney himself that his characters not be used for anything sad like the death of a child.  And the one kid did receive a personalized signed copy of a frame from the actual Spider-Man movie as a compromise.  Disney didn't sue the family into oblivion.  I have to agree, enough with the FUD and spreading misinformation already.  It's getting really old.  The GMs have spoken here.  If you see something you feel isn't right, report it to them and move on.  It's their call, so let them do their job. That's what they're here for.

Edited February 1 by ZacKing

[ZacKing]

9 minutes ago, Darmian said:

I am sure this will get some adverse reaction, but I sincerely ask, to every person who wants to be Arachnoboy or whoever, is your imagination not better than that? Sure, you love Arachnoboy, read his comics, watch his movies, maybe even play his licensed game on a machine/console of your choice, but here, in COH, where you can play anything you like, you can't do something uniquely yours?

 

Setting aside that making exact clones here is against the rules for a minute ....

 

So as a kid when you were reading comics, you didn't want to pretend to be Superman or Batman or Iron Man or Spider-Man or whatever character you were reading at the time?  You were happy playing as generic super strong dude?  On Halloween all those kids who want to dress up as their favorite superhero are all unimaginative dolts?  People who are cosplaying their favorite characters at comic cons are stupid and lack any creativity?  You're really no one to judge what is or isn't "creative enough" for other people.  By all means, report them if you see it in game, but don't belittle anyone for their "lack of imagination." 

[lemming]

38 minutes ago, Sovera said:

Not to demand trial by fire over a casual remark transmitted second hand, but maybe a world with that GM who said 'don't do it too often'. It transmits the wrong message as the OP showed.

May have also been a misinterpretted direction.   I could see, don't keep reporting the same person multiple times before the GMs have a chance to respond. 

[Darmian]

1 minute ago, ZacKing said:

 

Setting aside that making exact clones here is against the rules for a minute ....

 

So as a kid when you were reading comics, you didn't want to pretend to be Superman or Batman or Iron Man or Spider-Man or whatever character you were reading at the time?  You were happy playing as generic super strong dude?  On Halloween all those kids who want to dress up as their favorite superhero are all unimaginative dolts?  People who are cosplaying their favorite characters at comic cons are stupid and lack any creativity?  You're really no one to judge what is or isn't "creative enough" for other people.  By all means, report them if you see it in game, but don't belittle anyone for their "lack of imagination." 

Maybe it's a cultural thing. No, I didn't want to pretend to be Superman et al, mainly because I didn't read very many superhero comics growing up, and you can extend that further.  And no, the Halloween thing as described is a distinctly North American thing that got exported well after the likes of me grew up! 

People who are cosplaying? At a convention? Irrelevant and possibly a strawman argument. And belittling people's imagination? No, asking is it not better is not that same thing. You can read it that way but that's on whoever if they do. I'm saying I know your imagination is great, look at all the effort you've gone to to recreate this, but this is someone else's thing, so with that great imagination show me what you can do.

 

That's my last word on this. 

[ZacKing]

10 minutes ago, Darmian said:

Maybe it's a cultural thing. No, I didn't want to pretend to be Superman et al, mainly because I didn't read very many superhero comics growing up, and you can extend that further.  And no, the Halloween thing as described is a distinctly North American thing that got exported well after the likes of me grew up! 

People who are cosplaying? At a convention? Irrelevant and possibly a strawman argument. And belittling people's imagination? No, asking is it not better is not that same thing. You can read it that way but that's on whoever if they do. I'm saying I know your imagination is great, look at all the effort you've gone to to recreate this, but this is someone else's thing, so with that great imagination show me what you can do.

 

That's my last word on this. 

 

Yeah no, superheroes are absolutely not a distinctly North American thing.  Superhero movies and merchandise rakes in billions all over the world.  Not sure where you're from, but we do have Halloween here in Europe and I see kids dressed up as famous Marvel and DC superheroes all time.  There's superhero merch in stores all over the place, so definitely not just a North American thing.  And no, cosplayers at a convention isn't a strawman.  Ever been to a comic con or anime con or any kind of con in general?  Many of the people who cosplay there are incredibly amazingly talented and creative people in replicating the costumes and such of their favorite character.  They're not doing it out of a lack of imagination or creativity, they're doing it because they're passionate about those characters.  Any one of them could most certainly come up with an original character, they just choose not to in favor of cosplaying and supporting their favorite character to share their love for it.  That's not a "lack of creativity", it's passion, which is what I personally think some people are doing when they make a clone here.  Looking down your nose at people for "not being creative" and "lacking imagination" is just being ignorant in my opinion. 

Edited February 1 by ZacKing

[StarkWhite]

1 hour ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

And it's not really relevant here, because the thread title is wrong.  The actual issue isn't copyright, it's trademarks.  And there is no Fair Use for trademarks.

And trademark owners are *legally bound* to enforce their trademarks to the full extent of their ability, every single time, because if they don't, and it's provable that they didn't, they will lose that trademark. Trademark protection is *way* more stringent than copyright protection, and significantly more important financially (it's the difference between Disney losing exclusive rights to one specific movie and losing exclusive rights to every appearance and merchandising deal involving a specific character).

[Darmian]

1 minute ago, ZacKing said:

 

Yeah no, superheroes are absolutely not a distinctly North American thing.  Superhero movies and merchandise rakes in billions all over the world.  Not sure where you're from, but we do have Halloween here in Europe and I see kids dressed up as famous Marvel and DC superheroes all time.  There's superhero merch in stores all over the place, so definitely not just a North American thing.  And no, cosplayers at a convention isn't a strawman.  Ever been to a comic con or anime con or any kind of con in general?  Many of the people who cosplay there are incredibly amazingly talented and creative people in replicating the costumes and such of their favorite character.  They're not doing it out of a lack of imagination or creativity, they're doing it because they're passionate about those characters.  Any one of them could most certainly come up with an original character, they just choose not to in favor of cosplaying and supporting their favorite character to share their love for it.  That's not a "lack of creativity", it's passion, which is what I personally think some people are doing when they make a clone here.  Looking down your nose at people for "not being creative" and "lacking imagination" is just being ignorant in my opinion. 

I know I said I'd said my final word on this, but frankly we're not going to agree on this and I'd appreciate you not trying to start an argument with me. Maybe we can agree to disagree?  Is that possible? I don't see what I said as looking down my nose at people, you do.  There's not much I can do about that. I had some more written but I've deleted it because it's just extending the argument and I don't want that. 

 

Best wishes, Darmian.

[PeregrineFalcon]

1) No, Halloween is not a "North American thing." It came from the Celts, in Britain.

2) Superheroes are also an American thing? Quick, someone tell Goku that!

3) Yeah, not everyone has an awesome imagination. That's why we're not all writers or movie directors. Guess what, 99.9999999% of the people in the world aren't either. I'm not going to apologize because I can't come up with an entire theme & costume & name for a Superhero on a split second's notice just because I want to try out a new powerset. Most people can't do that.

4) In other words, pretty much every thing you've posted in this thread is wrong.

[Darmian]

8 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

1) No, Halloween is not a "North American thing." It came from the Celts, in Britain.

2) Superheroes are also an American thing? Quick, someone tell Goku that!

3) Yeah, not everyone has an awesome imagination. That's why we're not all writers or movie directors. Guess what, 99.9999999% of the people in the world aren't either. I'm not going to apologize because I can't come up with an entire theme & costume & name for a Superhero on a split second's notice just because I want to try out a new powerset. Most people can't do that.

4) In other words, pretty much every thing you've posted in this thread is wrong.

So someone else is weighing in.  Oh well.

1) I'm Irish.  And no, Halloween as WE created it, was nothing like the reimported thing from North America that now prevails. (You do not want to hear me rant about Croatoa!) Growing up in the countryside in Ireland I was surrounded by tales of the Sidhe and puca, all of that.  

2) Arguable. In the mass media sense since Action Comics #1, yes they are.

3) That's entirely fair and I agree with you. 

4) Well, I've agreed with one of yours, so that must be a win for you then, yeah?

 

Glad we settled that.  

 

Best wishes, Darmian.

 

 

Edited February 1 by Darmian

[UltraAlt]

20 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

That's not a "lack of creativity", it's passion, which is what I personally think some people are doing when they make a clone here.

 

It isn't a "passion".

 

This isn't some licensed product like Halloween costumes.

This isn't about some cosplayers that go to a convention celebrating the fandom/creators of those characters - most likely with a costume contest.

 

This is more like charging people to show up at Birthday parties dressed as Superman, Batman, or Spiderman in an ongoing basis without permission of the company that holds the copyright.

 

What "it is" is not reading the Code of Conduct.

 

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/code-of-conduct/

 

"...Copyright Policy

Use of copyrighted characters and content without permission is not permitted when creating characters or Architect content. This includes characters and stories from intellectual property belonging to any IP that is not City of Heroes...."

 

It is clearly stated.

 

And, yeah, if you actually read and understood the Code of Conduct and then try to replicate a character that has a copyright then you are not only showing a "lack of creativity" but a lack of respect not only for the Code of Conduct but all the other players that are playing.

 

I would hate for them to have to put up a screen when you go to create a character that has to explain each time that when creating a character, you understand that you are not try to duplicate characters that have a copyright and that you can have your account banned for doing so.

But maybe we are at the point that a system like that needs to be implemented. 

 

It appears that there are a good number of people that don't read that the policy because the naming policy isn't for characters with copyrights. There are plenty of other names that are against the Code of Conduct and should be reported as well.

 

I'm ongoing to say that I haven't created homage characters, because I have.

 

People are expected to use their imagination when using City of Heroes by creating their own characters to play in the game.

Not using one's own imagination and stealing other people's creations/imagination/material that has a copyright is a showing a "lack of creativity".

[UltraAlt]

29 minutes ago, Darmian said:

2) Arguable. In the mass media sense since Action Comics #1, yes they are.

 

Just for a point of reference as I had researched this before, and I thought it was fun info.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_superhero_debuts

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superhero

 

https://www.britannica.com/art/superhero

 

 

 

 

Edited February 1 by UltraAlt

[BlakeTheDrake]

Don't really wanna get into the... debate, I just checked in here because I wasn't really sure what the actual consensus WAS on this stuff. I've seen dozens of rather unoriginal characters around the place too, but here's the thing... I basically never see them TWICE. Sure, making Spiderman or Saitama or Wolverine or whatever can be fun, but that fun wears off rather quickly. The characters that people wind up STICKING with, and playing for the long haul, tend to be either A) Creative concepts or B) Mechanically optimized powersets with a generic superhero/villain skin slapped on. I shan't pass judgement on which approach is better - what matters is that those are the characters people enjoy playing for the long haul.

 

Not sure if that changes anything from a legal standpoint, but from an emotional perspective, it's worth remembering that we aren't REALLY being overrun with endless copycats. Hanging around the high-level zones or running high-end TFs, you'll see few if any.

[ZacKing]

1 hour ago, Darmian said:

I don't see what I said as looking down my nose at people, you do...

 

1 hour ago, Darmian said:

...so with that great imagination show me what you can do.

 

That's arrogantly presumptuous and yeah, it's looking down your nose at people who don't live up to your expectations of creativity or imagination.

 

 

32 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

What "it is" is not reading the Code of Conduct.

 

Please dismount your high horse.   No one here is suggesting anyone should be able to make clones and charge money and show up at some kids birthday party here or any of that other nonsense you're on about.  If you'd read through the posts I've made in this thread where I've said on numerous occasions, if you see something, say something and report it.  We all know it's a violation of the rules.  The reasons why people make clones here, whether that be out of passion or ignorance or malice is completely and totally irrelevant.  It's against the rules, period.  End of discussion. 

 

My point was that if I see someone making a Superman clone, I'm not immediately jumping to the conclusion that they're doing it to be a jerk.  I'll just report them and let the GMs do their thing. 

[Darmian]

1 minute ago, ZacKing said:

I'm not immediately jumping to the conclusion that they're doing it to be a jerk

On that I 100% agree with you.

[Excraft]

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

What "it is" is not reading the Code of Conduct.

 

Tell us something we don't know.  We all know it is against the rules, that's why there's a discussion about reporting it when we see it.

[Rimerat]

2 hours ago, Sovera said:

 

Not to demand trial by fire over a casual remark transmitted second hand, but maybe a world with that GM who said 'don't do it too often'. It transmits the wrong message as the OP showed.

Just wanted to chime in here. I don't remember the GM's name though I'm sure the team could find it by browsing /general chat logs from last week, but I did not ask the GM a direct question in any official capacity. It was a series of comments over Excel /general chat regarding the server's vibe on reporting copyright cases exchanged between myself and others.

 

I was left with an impression of 'don't do it too often', and that is more or less what I was told, but in hindsight I do think the GM just didn't know me or my concern fully; which is why I made this thread. Their intention was probably to err on the side of 'let's not encourage this random player to frivolously witch-hunt', which is fair. I definitely didn't get a 'go make a Marvel character, we don't care' feeling from their remark.

 

I get where you're coming from but I just wanted to clear the air and don't think said GM needs to be put on blast or anything. 🙂

[Snyzerwings]

18 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Good news though you can do Steamboat Willie costumes now.

There are lots of cool characters in public domain:

 

Dracula 

 

Van Hellsing

 

The Phantom of the Opera

 

Tarzan

 

Robin Hood

 

Hercules (any greek god or norse god )

 

Franksteins's Monster

 

Sherlock Holmes

 

King Arthur

 

But my favorite public domain character is the superhero "Zorro" because Antonio Banderas did an excellente job portrayng the charcater on the big screen. Honestly I think Im going to create Zorro in the game right now.

 

 

Edited February 1 by Snyzerwings

[Skyhawke]

1 hour ago, BlakeTheDrake said:

Don't really wanna get into the... debate,

 

Eh, don't sweat it. We will go round and round on one topic with each other and then be laughing in the next. We get heated because we love the game, but usually keep it just shy of hair pulling.