On the new CoT and council......the good and bad so far.

[Parabola]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

10 hours ago, FupDup said:

My observation from playing on a 4-man beta team was that the newly revamped factions were only a little bit harder than before, mostly just a bit slower...but that's on teams. 

 

Doing it solo, however, was quite a bit slower than previously, especially the new Council being very bullet-spongey. I'm not a fan of pillow fight pacing. 

 

I feel like these two outcomes are kind of backwards. There are indeed a good number of complaints about stuff being too easy and enemies dying too fast for people to use their powers, but those complaints are almost always coming from the context of a steamroller team. If you're flying solo you're not going to be worried about whether or not enemies live long enough for you to do stuff. That's a team problem, it needs a team solution. 

 

My take is that most faction revamps should focus on making team play moderately or even significantly harder (depending on exactly what the starting point was) but having a relatively modest solo impact. As for how to do that, IDK if it's possible in this game's engine but I'd like something similar to Diablo games where enemies scale in power based on how many players are present. There would need to be a max limit somewhere so large leagues don't get totally hosed by this of course. 

Expand  

 

I keep advocating for an HP buff that is related to team size: One person: normal HP. Two persons: 20% more HP. Three persons: 50% HP. All the way to 8 persons and... 200%? Numbers would be tweaked.

 

This would let mobs last longer and not crippler a soloer.

I suggested scaling enemy buffs based on team size ages ago. If we accept that we can't put the 'soloing 4/8' genie back in the bottle it seems the most sensible way to approach the problem to me. The hard mode content seems to be along the same sort of lines but it is so limited and is clearly time consuming to create. Universal buffs could be applied much more quickly and widely.

 

My thoughts were that the buff would probably need to gradually ramp up between say levels 30 to 50 as lower level teams aren't often running into the difficulty ceiling.

[FlammeFatale]

50 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

What power sets, maybe this should be a different thread, are you finding are suffering disproportionately more now?

 

Yes this could be a different thread, because this is not specifically about Council and CoT changes.  But there is really no point in starting a thread. Testing is finished.

 

I tested a few builds on the test server prior to patch release. I test solo, because there are too many variables in a team environment and everything is easy for a team anyway.

I had a couple remarks (increased unbalance between strong performers and weak performers, problem with Fortunata Mistresses for some powersets). But people had already made the same remarks on the feedback threads. I did not feel the need to post the same thing.

 

After patch release, I played my level 50 characters (all T4 incarnate). I have only 21 or 22 of them. So not many, but I believe I know them well since they are the only characters I play. I tested each of them against arachnos/carnies/CoT/council. My findings confirmed what I had found on the test server for a few of them. 

 

The characters suffering disproportionally are the characters with:

 

- weak damage (controllers and to a lesser extent, masterminds).

- weak mitigations, mezz dependance for survival (controllers again and to a lesser extent my dark/dark dominator).

- weak powersets (empathy).

 

All the other characters are unaffected. There is some extra tediousness (rezzers) but increased interest too because of the new mobs. 

[sbloyd]

Am I the only one that, when a doggo spawns and runs away... doesn't care?  I just move on to the next group (because I'm a warshade).

[KaizenSoze]

Speaking of solo, here are some tips when fighting Council and CoT:

• Mezzed mobs cannot transform into wolves.
  • You don't need to keep them mezzed the whole time. Start thinking about once they drop below 50% HP.
• Galaxy are just like Super Stunners, if you move away, more than 25 I think, or break line of sight. They cannot rez.
• Confused Council are devastating to themselves. Those AOEs hurt.

CoT solo are just harder:

• Controls are very useful, including those holds most blasters have available.
• Mez the bosses and keep them mezed. Confuse works too, but not as well due to Dispersion Bubble.
• Watch for the Earthquake and Tar Patch indicators and MOVE. Breaking line sight also works.
• Agony mages should die first, they heal the others with Absorb Pain.
• Earthquake is not the only source of serious -damage, several mobs have -defense, including some minions.

[Sunsette]

I can certainly confirm I used the Rogue alignment power to better effect with the council than I have with any other group my Rogue has experienced before. 3 minute cooldown but was enjoyable to see. 

[skoryy]

On 3/7/2024 at 7:11 AM, KaizenSoze said:

What power sets, maybe this should be a different thread, are you finding are suffering disproportionately more now?

 

Yeah, I think we do need the different thread, 'cause I'm just going to re-iterate that the old S/L/E defense cap meta just isn't going to carry you anymore.  My S/L/E capped blasters get toasted against nuCouncil but I can breeze through them with my elec/elec stalker with his capped resists and Power Sink.

 

So, yeah, any builds that could just cap S/L/E and call it a day are going to be suffering disproportionately.  

[Sunsette]

3 hours ago, skoryy said:

My S/L/E capped blasters get toasted against nuCouncil but I can breeze through them with my elec/elec stalker with his capped resists and Power Sink.

 

I've done well on one character backing off of the S/L/E cap a little and raising Ranged to 32.5%, though I can't make that a general recommendation for council in specific; I probably have more leeway on the relevant character due to some other soft control quirks of the powersets. 

Edited March 8 by Sunsette

[KaizenSoze]

I have to blasters which have soft capped E/R defense which are doing fine against the new mobs. But the reason is mostly because they use secondary effects to neuter the mobs.

 

Elec/Ice blaster, everything is drained and slowed.

Dark/Tactical Arrow, tons of -tohit, lots of area control, only needs to be in melee for Blackstar.

[Crysis]

On 3/5/2024 at 2:00 PM, Sovera said:

Leveling and meeting the new Council left me with that sense too. They were not harder, I now just had to kill a respawned boss. Since I was soloing I just dragged it to the next spawn and went back to AoEing. But at some point I had four transformed bosses and sat down to finish whittling them since they had been softened by all the AoEs.

On my controller, soloing, I did likewise.  I often found myself with a transformed Dark Wolf following me for two additional spawns until fully downed, and by that time, the second spawns boss was joining in so I’d end up with three bosses to deal with by third spawn.  It’s not difficult, I was never in any danger, but it is annoying.  As others pointed out…the implementation here needs some work, but I’m fine with the changes, even at +4/x8.

[Aryn]

I'm wondering if it's an intended effect to have Boss-level rocket launcher users able to knock back on melee protections; I'm talking the standard protects like Entropy Shield, etc on Energy Aura and the like for Brute-Tanks and Scrapper-Stalkers, because on a run of them I actually got knocked down on my EA stalker which was... really surprising, to put it kindly. I could understand an AV/Hero level having enough KB mag but even Ballista can't knock me around how could a boss do that?

[DanaDark]

Eh, I simply do not agree with the idea that the game should be balanced based on soloing x8 +3/4. If this was a post about how a full group of lvl 50 characters couldn't handle lvl 54 content, it'd be more relevant. I have felt for years that end game content in CoH has been vastly too easy akin to nuking fish in a barrel.

I welcome difficulty, but definitely can agree that annoyance =/= difficulty. 

[Anput]

I just dislike that the changes seem designed to punish fully setted out players at the expense of the rest of us. 

[Clave Dark 5]

3 hours ago, Anput said:

I just dislike that the changes seem designed to punish fully setted out players at the expense of the rest of us. 

Not punish but the evolve up to meet the power creep (that they themselves have encouraged and created).  Although I have sympathy with your stance, I fairly often don't bother to obsessively number-crunch every build, chase every accolade no matter how bored I am of Citadel or whatever... This game used to be more for casual play, and while it still largely is, the creep has crept just a bit more...

[Andreah]

I kind of wish the "nu" powers the council has proportionately showed up as difficulty scales from +0/x1 to +4/x8, along both axes. I.e., so that you could have a mostly OldCOuncil experience at +0/x8 and +4/x1, but not at +4/x8. These would have the Nu-Stuff, but much less frequently.

 

Overall, I'm satisfied. I dislike certain specific elements of the implementation, but I lead radios teams with lower level players on them, and if I have a few well-built 50's on a team, we can usually sweep through them. If we're just me and seven sub-20 lowbies, we have to back way down in difficulty or try other groups. Shopping for enemy types helps too -- just based on the powers. I've had teams that could not do Council at +0 without several defeats per spawn group, but swapping to CoT we could sweep through them like a hot wind.

[ZemX]

On 3/12/2024 at 10:01 AM, DanaDark said:

Eh, I simply do not agree with the idea that the game should be balanced based on soloing x8 +3/4. If this was a post about how a full group of lvl 50 characters couldn't handle lvl 54 content, it'd be more relevant. I have felt for years that end game content in CoH has been vastly too easy akin to nuking fish in a barrel.

 

The only thing I was really hoping for when I heard of this change was that I'd see fewer teams running exclusively Council PI Radios... but if that's happened at all it's hard to tell.  Still see plenty of teams advertising Council-only radio groups.

[Anput]

12 hours ago, ZemX said:

 

The only thing I was really hoping for when I heard of this change was that I'd see fewer teams running exclusively Council PI Radios... but if that's happened at all it's hard to tell.  Still see plenty of teams advertising Council-only radio groups.

Buffing 2 groups doesn’t make the others any less miserable. I don’t think anyone likes Malta. Carnies aren’t much better if you aren’t armored and Arachnos is still miserable with it’s -recharge spam. So most people will still just run council and thorns. It’s just made it harder on newer players.

[ZemX]

9 hours ago, Anput said:

Buffing 2 groups doesn’t make the others any less miserable. 

 

Doesn't have to.  The goal of ANY kind of balance is that players will look at their available choices and see them ALL as equally worthy of being chosen.  To use your word then, they didn't make Council miserable enough if people are still preferring to run exclusively Council radios.  Sounds bad when I put it that way but the goal is actually FOR players.  If you have five choices but nobody hardly ever picks four of them, then you don't really have much choice.

 

The problem still seems to be that people just mindlessly process Council.  It only takes a little longer.  They take the same "Tactics" to Arachnos or Carnie and get wiped out, then decide never to choose them because they haven't learned that just throwing yourself at every enemy and rolling your face around on the keyboard is maybe not the best way to do things.

[skoryy]

22 hours ago, ZemX said:

 

The only thing I was really hoping for when I heard of this change was that I'd see fewer teams running exclusively Council PI Radios... but if that's happened at all it's hard to tell.  Still see plenty of teams advertising Council-only radio groups.

 

Having run around the island doing radios as of late, I think this is just muscle memory.  Heck, I'd say that Malta's easier since they're just targets once you take out the sapper.

[ZamuelNow]

This whole discussion reminds me of two things.  The first was a forum discussion pre Sunset that the game's perceived difficulty was mostly governed by Scrappers, Tankers, and Brutes.  The other is that every powerset has it's kryptonite.  Energy drain and recharge slows seem to be the thing that terrifies most melee players...even if they can handle it.  Case in point, my Stalker wasn't bothered by Malta since Sappers are minions that are easily dealt with.  The hated enemy group for my Stalker was Knives of Artemis for outright ignoring stealth and that caltrops interfered with Hide.  Alternately, my Fire/Fire Scrapper could easily deal with KoA (even though wading through a sea of caltrops was a chore).  In this thread, it's been noted in more than one way that Council has a notable weakness to CC.  I'm wondering if the influx of newer and returning players will slowly shift things as people lead their own teams.

[KaizenSoze]

7 hours ago, ZemX said:

The problem still seems to be that people just mindlessly process Council.  It only takes a little longer.  They take the same "Tactics" to Arachnos or Carnie and get wiped out, then decide never to choose them because they haven't learned that just throwing yourself at every enemy and rolling your face around on the keyboard is maybe not the best way to do things.

 I wish the player population would realize that carnies aren't hard if you have decent controls. Hate that phasing, mezz em, nasty -tohit pet, mezz em. Annoying Phantom, confuse the main pet, watch the other pet attack it.

 

Also, they are incredible weak to lethal, +20% damage from lethal attacks.

 

They are only really difficult soloing at high notoriety.

Edited March 23 by KaizenSoze