Homages ...

[Herotu]

We can't do homages to copyrighted characters ... but what about doing homages to CoH characters?

Edited March 6 by Herotu

[PeregrineFalcon]

You've made a homage to @Snarky!!!

[ZacKing]

I could very well be wrong, but as I remember it, copies of signature CoH/CoV characters aren't allowed either.  For me personally, I don't see a problem with what you've created there, but I'm not the one who makes the final determination. 

 

Where the line is between homage and direct copy is ultimately up to the HC people. 

[drgantz]

We can do homages, but not clones.

 

An example is in the early days of Live, I saw many Wolverine clones.  They had names like Logan or Wolverene, and looked as much as possible like Wolverine with similar ablilities.
Now, sometimes I will see a homage who looks similar to Wolvie with similar powers but has a different name such as Wild Claw.

 

I had a character named Al Bundy.  It got generic'd.  Then, I made Touchdown Bundy.  It lasted a while but finally got generic'd.  Then I made Touchdown Hero and changed his background story to make him younger and a native of Paragon City instead of Chicago.  The first was a clone and the last was a homage.

 

[Captain Fabulous]

Homages are ok. Just don't get too close to the original in either name or look.

[ZacKing]

18 minutes ago, drgantz said:

Then, I made Touchdown Bundy.  It lasted a while but finally got generic'd.

 

Why would that get generic'd?  Did you say in the bio he's THE Al Bundy from the TV show with a costume that was a direct copy of him?  If not, that's overkill to generic it.

[Ironblade]

1 hour ago, Herotu said:

We can't do homages to copyrighted characters ... but what about doing homages to CoH characters?

Yes to copyrighted characters and yes to CoH characters also.

Homages are not copies.  They are inspired by the character.

[Monty Haull]

Mine is an homage.  I only got "Corrected" because of the name.  The actual look is not of any one game show personality.

[biostem]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

ou've made a homage to @Snarky!!!

How dare you compare him to some 3rd-rate super-soldier program reject!!!

[ZacKing]

9 minutes ago, Monty Haull said:

Mine is an homage.  I only got "Corrected" because of the name.  The actual look is not of any one game show personality.

 

You mean it was generic'd because the name was actually Monty Hall and didn't look anything like him or make any mention of him in the bio?  What if your real name is Monty Hall?  I think some people are getting carried away with the generic bat.

[DoctorDitko]

IIRC, on Live, Jim Butcher, writer of the Harry Dresden stories (and the great Furies series) kept getting reported and genericked. For playing Harry Dresden.

Despite stating in his bio who he was, giving a link to his website where he talked about playing CoH, and generally doing everything he could to enjoy his own copyrighted character.

 

Still kept happening.

Let's not get that bad, OK?

Edited March 6 by DoctorDitko

[Monty Haull]

56 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

 

You mean it was generic'd because the name was actually Monty Hall and didn't look anything like him or make any mention of him in the bio?  What if your real name is Monty Hall?  I think some people are getting carried away with the generic bat.

Well my name is not Monty Hall and they were right in that regards.  They did strip the costume but they apologized for doing so as it was a generic outfit.   I am happy with the outcome and enjoy what I do.

[strix_]

It'd be nice to get some more clarification on the policy around homages to CoH/CoV characters (esp. for RP purposes, i've seen and played a lot of characters who were inspired to take up heroism by their idolizing the Surviving Eight or were visually distinct clones/AU versions of signature characters and having spoken to other people who make those kinds of characters in a "hey! same hat!" manner we're all fairly unsure of where the line is that would get us Generic'd) and where exactly the lines get drawn on those vs. the more rigid "obviously, don't make Wolverine" rules around copyrighted characters.

 

There's been a few informal clarifications from GMs in various forum posts and messages in the discord server over the years on where they draw the line on "copies" of in-game characters and their reasoning for it, but it's still something that feels like it's gonna put you at the risk of falling afoul of a GM who draws that line differently to another.

Edited March 6 by strix_

[biostem]

5 minutes ago, strix_ said:

It'd be nice to get some more clarification on the policy around homages to CoH/CoV characters

The issue is that any such policy has to, by necessity, be malleable;  You may be able to get a clever name, appearance, and/or bio that pay homage without going over the line, but others may not.  One suggestion I've heard is to create your character, report yourself, and see what a GM has to say...

[ZacKing]

36 minutes ago, Monty Haull said:

Well my name is not Monty Hall and they were right in that regards.  They did strip the costume but they apologized for doing so as it was a generic outfit.   I am happy with the outcome and enjoy what I do.

 

Ok but the question still stands.  I mean, it is possible that you can share the same name as some famous person.  I served with George Clooney, not the Hollywood actor.  If the name Monty Hall was the only thing and the costume and character bio had nothing to do with or mentioned the game show host, then it's an excessive abuse of the policy IMO.  Even if you named it Monty Hall and said he really was the gameshow host, that's pushing it IMO. 

[UltraAlt]

2 hours ago, strix_ said:

There's been a few informal clarifications from GMs in various forum posts and messages in the discord server over the years on where they draw the line on "copies" of in-game characters and their reasoning for it, but it's still something that feels like it's gonna put you at the risk of falling afoul of a GM who draws that line differently to another.

 

They have stated in the past that they can't draw the line because some people will try to abuse it.

"No my toe isn't over the line. It's only on the line!"

 

Just don't blatantly copy or use the name of a character.

If you "need" to copy to make a character you like, then start from there, twist it once, and then tweak it twice so it isn't the same thing.

 

A good example of how to do this is Marvel's take on the JLA.

 

The JLA

 

The Squadron Supreme

 

 

And, here is another example,

 

DC's Deathstroke

 

 

Marvel's Deadpool

 

 

DC's Red Tool

 

 

 

There is another thread about this that may be helpful.

I've parked it on one that should illustrate the point.

 

 

[strix_]

19 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

They have stated in the past that they can't draw the line because some people will try to abuse it.

"No my toe isn't over the line. It's only on the line!"

I appreciate the explanation, but I feel like it misses my point that this would be information that would be great to have in more permanent form directly from the GMs/Devs either directly within the Code of Conduct or in an explainer/FAQ thread on the subject of character homage pinned in a visible spot on the forums, rather than nested in several 2+ year old threads and then repeated second- or third-hand by users with no association to the GMs.

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, strix_ said:

I appreciate the explanation, but I feel like it misses my point that this would be information that would be great to have in more permanent form directly from the GMs/Devs either directly within the Code of Conduct or in an explainer/FAQ thread on the subject of character homage pinned in a visible spot on the forums, rather than nested in several 2+ year old threads and then repeated second- or third-hand by users with no association to the GMs.

Here's the issue - just as a thought experiment, could you propose a set of rules that couldn't be exploited or pushed to the breaking point?

[strix_]

5 minutes ago, biostem said:

Here's the issue - just as a thought experiment, could you propose a set of rules that couldn't be exploited or pushed to the breaking point?

 

I'm not asking for rigorous rules on what constitutes an infringing character and what doesn't, I'm asking for an easily-accessible document that can clarify the thought processes that go into the decision not to have those rigorous rules (for the reasons given by other users above), and that the pre-existing advice that has been given by GMs informally through various mediums over the years to be collated in an easily-accessible form, as at-present finding it requires a user to do a ton of background reading to dig up.

Edited March 7 by strix_

[biostem]

1 minute ago, strix_ said:

I'm not asking for rigorous rules on what constitues an infringing character and what doesn't, I'm asking for an easily-accessible document that can clarify the thought processes that go into the decision not to have those rigorous rules (for the reasons given by other users above), and that the pre-existing advice that has been given by GMs informally through various mediums over the years to be collated in an easily-accessible form, as at-present finding it requires a user to do a ton of background reading to dig up.

Can you give me an example of the kind of clarification you are looking for?  For instance, let's say I create a copy of Captain America, but I reverse the red and blue parts, is that different enough?  What if I call them "Cpl. America"?  How about if I give them a hammer & shield instead of something using bare hands?  It's a subjective judgment to make, and that's the entire point.

[strix_]

3 minutes ago, biostem said:

Can you give me an example of the kind of clarification you are looking for?  For instance, let's say I create a copy of Captain America, but I reverse the red and blue parts, is that different enough?  What if I call them "Cpl. America"?  How about if I give them a hammer & shield instead of something using bare hands?  It's a subjective judgment to make, and that's the entire point.

Sure!

 

So for extra clarity, I am specifically talking about issues regarding replicating or homaging characters from the setting of CoH/CoV (i.e. Hero One from another timeline, a Clone/Robot of Statesman). This is where the ambiguity in present enforcement of the CoC copyright policy lies. I am fully aware that homaging characters from other properties are a separate issue and one that must be more stringently enforced.

 

For examples of clarifications on enforcement that I think could be made more easily accessible, this 2023 discord post from GM Flints states that there is a degree of "if the character is evidently intended to be a robot/clone, this is fine under the Code of Conduct" enforcement around characters such as Statesman, whereas a character who is trying to be the Primal Earth Marcus Cole is against the Code of Conduct.

 

In the current CoC, this is stated outright for organisations in rules around things like "naming your super group to be a subgroup of Longbow/Arachnos is fine, claiming to be the leader of Arachnos is not" It's a little more unclear about whether that's okay with characters, which only states that you cannot make copies of existing characters from the lore.

 

 

This 'clearly an automation/clone' guidance would be really helpful to have in a more accessible form, whether that's directly in the CoC or in an FAQ on the subject of best practices to avoid getting Generic'd.

 

There's also this recent thread on the topic of Copyright Infringement where GM Crumpet has given a ton of useful advice on where Crumpet, as the GM who does most of the generics, draw the line of parody/homage with third party characters:

Which really helps determine what's okay to do and what isn't!

 

I'm not suggesting any rules or guidance that the GMs haven't already been providing in these discussions. I just think that making these thought processes more easily accessible, through alterations to the text of the Copyright policy section of the Code of Conduct or through an FAQ explaining GM decisions, would prevent a lot of confusion before the Generic-hammer gets swung.

[UltraAlt]

1 hour ago, strix_ said:

I appreciate the explanation, but I feel like it misses my point that this would be information that would be great to have in more permanent form directly from the GMs/Devs either directly within the Code of Conduct or in an explainer/FAQ thread on the subject of character homage pinned in a visible spot on the forums, rather than nested in several 2+ year old threads and then repeated second- or third-hand by users with no association to the GMs.

 

Then check out this post that is from the Lead Game Master in the same thread.

 

 

"Well, the GMs monitor this stuff, so the Devs are free to make content for everyone to play 😃
As for the rest of your comment? I'd hate to say it, but, it essentially comes down to "I know it when I see it". We don't have strict, precise guidelines, only because people would toe the line on purpose just to be annoying. And the GM staff needs to be free make judgement calls on these things. We've seen enough uninspired copycats and delightful homages to tell the difference by this point." - GM Impervium

Edited March 7 by UltraAlt

[Player2]

Homage

noun

noun: homage; plural noun: homages

1. special honor or respect shown publicly.

There is nothing in the definition of the word that indicates being a copy of something.  An homage character should invoke characteristics that make you think of a specific character without being a duplicate.  For example, Moon Knight as a Batman homage.  Both rich secret identity heroes with no powers (at first), relying on gadgets and raw fighting talents.  But that's the similarities.  Moon Knight isn't really Wayne Bruce and doesn't dress in a dark costume suitable for stealth like Batman.  There are numerous Superman homages out there, several of them from Marvel.  While they all invoke the flying invulnerable super strong caped hero, they always look distinctly different while still giving that Superman feel.

 

Creating a duplicate and trying to pass it off as an homage seems actually disrespectful of the source material and comes from a place of selfishness.  "I want that character to be mine, so I will copy it even though it is protected under copyright and trademark laws."

 

As for the characters of this game, yes there can be some grey area.  On the old Live servers, you weren't allowed to copy signature heroes --especially the ones that specific developers or staff identified with since other players could mistake those copies for people of authority within the game and opens up a potential for abuse and or misinformation.  However, they were all too happy to let people make their own versions of NPC group members... although I'm not sure how that applied to specific named individuals.  Recently, as stated above, HC has included in their Code of Conduct that one cannot have Supergroups named specifically as the NPC groups... affiliates, for sure, as long as it's obvious that it's a player creation and not intended to be the originals.

 

I would say that you could probably copy costumes of specific individuals as the game allows, but it probably won't go over well if you also try to use a name that looks like a specific named entity.  Representing as a branch of an NPC group is fine, so trying to match uniforms should be fine.  Saying you are Vandal, Requiem, or Nosferatu of the 5th Column is likely to gain you the attentions of the generic bat.  But what about a character named Requiem's Clone?

 

**shakes Magic 8 Ball**

[Answer Hazy. Ask Again Later.]

[Player2]

2 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 

They have stated in the past that they can't draw the line because some people will try to abuse it.

"No my toe isn't over the line. It's only on the line!"

 

Just don't blatantly copy or use the name of a character.

If you "need" to copy to make a character you like, then start from there, twist it once, and then tweak it twice so it isn't the same thing.

 

A good example of how to do this is Marvel's take on the JLA.

 

The JLA

 

The Squadron Supreme

 

 

And, here is another example,

 

DC's Deathstroke

 

 

Marvel's Deadpool

 

 

DC's Red Tool

 

 

 

There is another thread about this that may be helpful.

I've parked it on one that should illustrate the point.

 

 

Red Tool is a hilarious illustration of parody.

[Lines]

My advice is:

Plant your homages in late April or Early May. Any earlier and they won't take root in colder soils.

Homages will want to be in dry soil but will benefit from scattering compost or special homage feed that you can get from your local garden centre.

Make sure your homages are in a spot where they'll get plenty of sunlight. If you are planting them in a pot, then turn the pot every week or so to get a nice spread of flowers.

 

I hope that helps! Please send photos when they're in full bloom. ❤️