Suggestions for Group Fly, Team Teleport, Grant Invisibility, Athletic Run, and Pets.

[Sunsette]

These are tightly related concepts and issues so I think they have to be addressed at the same time.

 

Moderate Problem: Pets are Too Slow and Have Bad Pathfinding

Mild Problem: Few like Group Fly or Team Teleport in the Game as They Stand

 

Step 1: Passive Mode Grants Athletic Run

Now that Athletic Run is automatically granted, it's part of the baseline expectations of the game. If you're a Mastermind, you are immediately outrunning your poor minions when you first toggle it on. When a pet is in passive mode, they should automatically gain speed comparable to Athletic Run + Sprint. If pathfinding could be improved somehow that'd be nice but that's unlikely to be an easy fix. We can just keep micromanaging goto macros as long as they're faster about it.

 

Step 2: Replace Group Fly with Grant Flight, a Dismissible Power

The targetable buff mechanic is annoying to keep up with in other contexts, but if you made this a 10-minute duration buff that flashed a warning on the recipient's screen at 1 minute remaining, they'd have time to remind the user they need a refresh. It wouldn't be much of a pain for a mastermind to keep these going for their whole brigade and could still provide uses in other contexts. There's a firesale on jetpacks anyway. Grant Flight should be able to keep up with Fly at the same slotting, and not grant Afterburner. 

 

Edit: Note that simply changing Group Fly and Team Teleport to be default-off at Null has been ruled out by the devs as technically infeasible due to side effects that disable their use on pets entirely.

 

Step 3: Server Tray Power: Teleport Pets

Server tray power gained on taking Teleport Target, instantly calls all pet window pets the user has active to their side. 30 second cooldown unenhanceable. 

 

Step 4: Replace Team Teleport with Dimensional Anchor

Long-recharge click power that grants a single target additional teleport protection.

 

Step 5: Increase the Duration of Grant Invisibility to 10 Minutes

2 minutes is pretty annoying to micromanage on minions or a party; 10 minutes relieves that while also reserving the benefit of AoE toggle auras for powersets. 

Edited March 21 by Sunsette

[Lunar Ronin]

Overall, I really like it.  Henchmen really do need to move faster, especially after the speed of all travel powers was increased in Page 2 and now that Athletic Run is automatically provided to player characters.  Having a built-in Athletic Run even just on passive mode would help a lot.

 

Group Fly (and to a much lesser degree, Team Teleport), is one of the major albatrosses on the Mastermind's neck.  It's so very helpful for moving henchmen along and giving them some vertical mobility when needed (including on both raids where it's really helpful), but so many people either don't know to talk with Null the Gull or just plain don't bother to and would rather yell at Mastermind players to turn their powers off than to take the two minutes to go to Pocket D.  If Group Fly and Team Teleport can't be fixed to apply solely to henchmen and pets, then replacing them all together with something that applies similar functionality without impacting other players is a good call.

 

Increasing the duration of Grant Invisibility is a good call as well.  Two minutes for a single-target buff is a lot of micromanaging, especially on an AT that (when played well), involves a lot of micromanagement in general.

[sbloyd]

I think just flipping Group Fly and Team Teleport to Opt-In at Null rather than Opt-Out at Null would fix the problems with those.

[Sunsette]

4 minutes ago, sbloyd said:

I think just flipping Group Fly and Team Teleport to Opt-In at Null rather than Opt-Out at Null would fix the problems with those.

 

The devs have said this is not technically feasible without breaking their use for pets. It is weird to me that it is not, but I am not a programmer. 

 

Group Fly and Team Teleport also kinda suck to use in most contexts due to their relatively small radiuses juxtaposed with this game's laggy position reporting. 

Edited March 20 by Sunsette

[Fade]

If I could offer an alternative for Group Fly that I don't think I've seen suggested before:
Change the Group Fly power to only affect pets by default. In addition, grant it a travel power popup tray, like you see with most of the other travel powers, that includes the current functionality of Group Fly for everybody. The popup Group Fly should be a toggle that costs zero endurance to maintain but can only be active while Group Fly is active.

In my mind, this implementation wouldn't meaningfully change anything for people who want Group Fly to work as it does on other players, but would improve the lives of every Mastermind that wants to use it just for their pets (and everyone who teams with them!).

[Sunsette]

1 minute ago, Fade said:

Change the Group Fly power to only affect pets by default.

 

Unfortunately, I believe that goes in the same bucket of 'not feasible' -- I have definitely seen this specific suggestion made before. It would be the straightforward option, but unless something changes significantly in the code framework, apparently it is not plausible.

Edited March 20 by Sunsette

[Rudra]

To fix MM pet ability to keep up with their MM instead of trailing well behind even when the MM isn't using any travel powers, give the pets the same inherent powers all PCs enjoy. Grant them the Fitness pool. Beyond that? I'm staying out of it.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

let me start with im old and my memory is faulty

so please forgive me if im remembering wrongly

i seem to recall the nina pets having super jump baked into their skillset

if so, would giving all pets SJ help a bit?

[Sunsette]

4 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

let me start with im old and my memory is faulty

so please forgive me if im remembering wrongly

i seem to recall the nina pets having super jump baked into their skillset

if so, would giving all pets SJ help a bit?

 

Hey! You're fine. 🙂

 

All pets have some level of super-jumping (I'm not sure if comparable with literal Super Jumping, it's my least-used travel power) baked in, they are just very reluctant to use it unless their pathfinding is very certain there's no way to get there by staying grounded. 

Edited March 20 by Sunsette

[PoptartsNinja]

Pet / NPC super jumping isn't the same as player super jumping.

 

All pets get a jump with extreme vertical height, but it doesn't add speed. They'll only jump if they're told to move somewhere they can't path to without jumping. If they can walk/run somewhere, they'll always choose to do that instead.

 

I like these suggestions. The speed boost while in passive actually gives passive mode a use case.

[Greycat]

3 hours ago, Sunsette said:

Step 2: Replace Group Fly with Grant Flight, a Dismissible Power

The targetable buff mechanic is annoying to keep up with in other contexts, but if you made this a 10-minute duration buff that flashed a warning on the recipient's screen at 1 minute remaining, they'd have time to remind the user they need a refresh. It wouldn't be much of a pain for a mastermind to keep these going for their whole brigade and could still provide uses in other contexts. There's a firesale on jetpacks anyway. Grant Flight should be able to keep up with Fly at the same slotting, and not grant Afterburner. 

 

No "replacing," thanks. People *do* actually use this power, besides MMs. And this sounds more irritating to keep up than anything - I can't imagine trying to do so during an MSR on my MMs, for instance, especially with resummons.

 

 

[biostem]

The problem, IMHO, isn't how fast or slow pets are, it's that they kind of lag behind in terms of when and how they follow the MM;  They need a "hard leash" where they get dragged along as the MM moves.  In short, MMs need a "follow distance" command, where they can force their minions to stay within 10', 20', etc, regardless of anything else.

Edited March 20 by biostem

[Rudra]

44 minutes ago, biostem said:

The problem, IMHO, isn't how fast or slow pets are, it's that they kind of lag behind in terms of when and how they follow the MM;  They need a "hard leash" where they get dragged along as the MM moves.  In short, MMs need a "follow distance" command, where they can force their minions to stay within 10', 20', etc, regardless of anything else.

MM pets have a radius where they are considered to be with the MM. What makes that a problem is that the MM character is by default much faster than the pets because we all get Swift and Hurdle for free on every character. So not only do the pets not start moving until they find themselves outside of that radius, but they lack the speed to keep up with the MM even while the MM is using absolutely nothing to improve their speed. No global speed buffs, not active travel powers, no slotted movement enhancements. So the pets start moving after the MM a short while after the MM starts moving and then progressively fall further behind without the MM even trying to outrun them. If the pets had the same inherent buffs all player characters enjoy, then at least they would stay near the MM as the MM runs without any travel powers and not keep falling further behind.

 

Yes, MM pets will teleport to the MM, but only if they fall a (seemingly random) distance beyond that 'near MM' radius. Which helps when the MM is using actual travel powers, but not if the MM is not, or if the MM just moves down a hall to the next fight only to find the pets are still only 1/3 of the way into said hall.

 

My concern with the proposed giving pets Athletic Run is either the pets will always have it on or never have it on. And both are problems. MM pets tend to burn through their END pools fast even with lots of END slotting. And if they have Athletic Run always on, you will see their END bars basically bottom out at the start of most fights. And if they are as picky about using Athletic Run as they are about their inherent jumping ability, then they will still lag behind the MM by hazardous distances.

 

4 hours ago, Sunsette said:

Step 2: Replace Group Fly with Grant Flight, a Dismissible Power

The targetable buff mechanic is annoying to keep up with in other contexts, but if you made this a 10-minute duration buff that flashed a warning on the recipient's screen at 1 minute remaining, they'd have time to remind the user they need a refresh. It wouldn't be much of a pain for a mastermind to keep these going for their whole brigade and could still provide uses in other contexts. There's a firesale on jetpacks anyway. Grant Flight should be able to keep up with Fly at the same slotting, and not grant Afterburner. 

I admit I skipped the bulk of the OP, so I missed this. I agree with @Greycat. Don't replace Group Fly. As much as I hate it when I find myself affected by it, it mainly serves as a reminder to go talk to Null. Group Fly and Team Teleport are probably the most useful means for a MM to get their pets around and keep them near at hand.

 

Edited March 20 by Rudra
Edited to add missing period. And correct "get" to "go".

[biostem]

9 minutes ago, Rudra said:

they lack the speed to keep up with the MM even while the MM is using absolutely nothing to improve their speed

The henchmen need, for lack of a better term, their reaction speed increased with regards to how and when they follow, or the distance before they start following reduced.  If you summon your minions then start moving, they won't follow until you've moved beyond a certain distance.  They need to move WITH you, in lock step, not after you've moved a good distance away.

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, biostem said:

The henchmen need, for lack of a better term, their reaction speed increased with regards to how and when they follow, or the distance before they start following reduced.  If you summon your minions then start moving, they won't follow until you've moved beyond a certain distance.  They need to move WITH you, in lock step, not after you've moved a good distance away.

Even if they did, they would still fall behind.

[Sunsette]

27 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Don't replace Group Fly. As much as I hate it when I find myself affected by it, it mainly serves as a reminder to go talk to Null. Group Fly and Team Teleport are probably the most useful means for a MM to get their pets around and keep them near at hand.

 

Group Fly as it currently works does not work very well for an MM for aforementioned reasons relating to radius and positional report update frequency; it works, but it does not work very well. 

 

I have no answer for the fact that Grant Flight would be worse in the specific scenario of actually using Group Fly in fairly static situations with large leagues, other than the fact that my characters are littered with jetpacks now as-is. It also suffers in the scenario of MM pets dying rapidly over and over, but that's... a larger issue that I cannot touch on meaningfully within the scope of this thread.

Edited March 20 by Sunsette

[biostem]

10 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Even if they did, they would still fall behind.

Perhaps, but it wouldn't be nearly as bad in regular content.  But we can do multiple things at once;  Up the henchmen's speed and adjust their tethering/leashing.

[Rudra]

45 minutes ago, biostem said:

Perhaps, but it wouldn't be nearly as bad in regular content.  But we can do multiple things at once;  Up the henchmen's speed and adjust their tethering/leashing.

If the devs are willing to do both, I'm fine with both and would prefer it. If it was an either or thing though, I would rather the pets got Swift so that at least they can stay within the limits of the designated radius.

[lemming]

Group fly got updated with this, since I see some people think it's still acting like it used to:

• Group Fly
  • This power now applies to all pets regardless of their distance from the caster
  • No longer inaccurately claims it applies -Acc

 

 

 

You do still fly faster than they do, but they will either catchup, or if you get too far, they port to your location.

[Sunsette]

Appreciate the correction @lemming -- you're right, I haven't used Group Fly since I came back. I think striking Grant Flight from this list of suggestions makes sense.

[Riverdusk]

6 hours ago, Rudra said:

My concern with the proposed giving pets Athletic Run is either the pets will always have it on or never have it on. And both are problems. MM pets tend to burn through their END pools fast even with lots of END slotting. And if they have Athletic Run always on, you will see their END bars basically bottom out at the start of most fights. And if they are as picky about using Athletic Run as they are about their inherent jumping ability, then they will still lag behind the MM by hazardous distances.

 

 

 

 

MM's pet endurance usage could use a balance pass overall.  I find it very much depends on the pet.  My necros for instance seem to never run out of endurance, on the other hand my bots tend to chew through it like crazy (after 2nd upgrade power is applied to them anyway).    The others are in different places between those two.  And it doesn't seem to have anything to do with 'balance'.  It just seems random which are bad with endurance and which aren't.

 

 

[Glacier Peak]

I'm on the fence. Are we talking Synapse speed or what?

 

Athletic run and inherent Fitness pool, along with some enhanced Sprint and I think maybe even a base empowerment temp gets players near the running speed cap.

 

Can anyone give a real number to current Henchmen movement speed?

[Sunsette]

34 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Athletic run and inherent Fitness pool, along with some enhanced Sprint

 

Just FYI, that combination gets people to about 60 MPH with 50+5s. Speed. Normal Speed Cap is 92.5 MPH; Super Speed can get to 120 MPH.

 

I don't know numbers on minion speed.

Edited March 21 by Sunsette

[Rudra]

42 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Can anyone give a real number to current Henchmen movement speed?

At level 50 as a Ninja MM, genin have a speed of 39.65 mph (base 21.48), jounin have a speed of 39.70 mph (base 21.48), and oni has a speed of 39.73 mph (base 21.48).

 

At level 50 as a Robotics MM, battle drones have a speed of 28.92 mph (base 21.48), protector bots have a speed of 28.96 mph (base 21.48), and assault bot has a speed of 28.99 mph (base 21.48).

 

None of my other MMs are level 50. All speeds show as also being max speed for the henchman in question. All speed show green for being buffed but do not show enough buffs to have reached that speed. So I guess the 1st thing to do would be to increase their max speeds?

 

Edit: All numbers pulled from the respective pet's combat attributes window.

 

(Edit: The ninja MM has a base speed of 14.32 and Swift provides another +7.21. I have no speed enhancements slotted in Swift and no speed set bonuses. So a base 21.54. Looking at those numbers, I have no idea why when I have all movement turned off, the pets can't keep up.)

 

Edited March 21 by Rudra
Edited to add ninja base speeds. And again to add "mph" to all 3 bot speeds.