RWZ Base rework has done more harm than good...

[Shin Magmus]

     This time, for real, I speak for many more players than myself.  People going into the Vanguard Base in RWZ then getting tricked by the lying Waypoint on Tin Mage Mission 3, and following it to go deeper into the base, then getting hopelessly lost and asking for help to get back out: happens all the time.  For the record: I don't personally think that the base layout is too complicated... but I'm not Johny Randumb and Noob Billy.  Johny and Billy are wasting several minutes of our time, 25% or more of the time, on TinPex runs.  This problem would be even more pronounced if going into and out of the Vanguard Base was required more often.  People are confused, people are lost, and the Waypoints now work in a completely different way from how players have been conditioned to understand the distances of waypoints and multiple floors, everywhere else in the game.  This happens too frequently and the irritation and slow down are not fun for anyone involved.

 

     Just did another Tinpex and on Mission 2 we specifically dropped a Team Teleporter to try and prevent this.  Johny and Billy blindly missed the TT somehow, got lost, and we waited for several minutes till someone exited the mission to ATT them to the mission entrance (helicopter) and then we finally finished.  This highlights an endemic problem with the RWZ map changes as a whole and player perception.  I honestly don't know if there's a solution that will please everyone, but I believe that more texture work needs to be done in the Vanguard Base to try and make obvious one-way arrows pointing towards the Exit Portal or something, because the current situation is really irritating.  Is it just a "skill issue" on the part of the lost players?  Yes.  Does it impact everyone else on the team?  Also Yes.

[Shin Magmus]

Please, comment if you've encountered this yourself.  I know there are some arrows in the map already, but they aren't everywhere: and people continue to get lost regardless.  I can't make random players not get lost, but maybe additional map reworks can.

[Laucianna]

I haven't found an issue with it personally, but it would be QoL update if they say made the wall behind Lady Grey go back a bit more and have the portal there

[Sunsette]

1 hour ago, ShinMagmus said:

People going into the Vanguard Base in RWZ then getting tricked by the lying Waypoint on Tin Mage Mission 3, and following it to go deeper into the base, then getting hopelessly lost and asking for help to get back out: happens all the time.  For the record: I don't personally think that the base layout is too complicated... but I'm not Johny Randumb and Noob Billy.  Johny and Billy are wasting several minutes of our time, 25% or more of the time, on TinPex runs.  This problem would be even more pronounced if going into and out of the Vanguard Base was required more often.  People are confused, people are lost, and the Waypoints now work in a completely different way from how players have been conditioned to understand the distances of waypoints and multiple floors, everywhere else in the game.  This happens too frequently and the irritation and slow down are not fun for anyone involved.

 

Yeah, I agree with this.

 

We've had to use Assemble the Team, Teleport Target, or Team Transporter a few times because people -- including newbies who don't have any prior rote memories of the task force that are conflicting -- get thrown by the nav points and the narrow parallel halls due to the strange base layout. I got lost badly my first time, but I committed the pathway to memory because I have a compulsive need to try and outspeed Team Transporter with my travel powers; most people are not as obsessed with such a stupid, meaningless feat as I am. 😅

 

Along with the confusing nav point, it's the second Tin Mage door that's the big problem, imo. If it was where it used to be, people wouldn't get as disoriented heading to it and going back out the main portally entrance. It's neat that we have a proper physical exit to the base without a teleporter, but I was expecting the physical entrance to be where the teleporter was rather than off to the side entirely.

Edited March 31 by Sunsette

[Rudra]

Adjust hall contrast so the 2 halls that run past the infirmary are much more noticeable and correct the arrow that says it shows the way to the war zone but actually leads to the Portal Corps portal.

[Luminara]

Last night was the first time I've been there since it was redesigned.  Spent a few minutes exploring and accidentally exited to the surface twice (different exit points, not the same one), so it doesn't seem like it's especially difficult to find a way out.

[Ston]

100% agree.

 

I’ve done tinpex once since the update and I had no idea where I was going. Probably the worst navigation I’ve experienced in the game. 
 

The zone updates are awesome aside from that. But that one thing is a pretty significant problem.

[lemming]

The waypoint issue would be nice to fix, though difficult I understand with the other ways in and out of the base.   Maybe it should just path thru the portal if you are inside and the destination is outside, and visa versa.

 

Teleport Target has always been my friend for lost teammates

[Shin Magmus]

34 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Last night was the first time I've been there since it was redesigned.  Spent a few minutes exploring and accidentally exited to the surface twice (different exit points, not the same one), so it doesn't seem like it's especially difficult to find a way out.

Luminara, try to use perspective-taking and view the map from the perspective of a bad player who did not explore or learn preemptively, and just follows the red waypoint.  It's not a problem *for you*, but it only has to be a problem *for 1 person on the team* to hold everyone else up... and it is, and it does.

[Glacier Peak]

I'm not moved by the reasoning for this suggestion, but I'm not against it. 

 

My perspective on the new design was that because I was used to it a certain way for many years, I take should take initiative and see what has changed before doing anything else in the zone.

 

I spent upwards of 30 minutes looking at how the motor pool, infirmary, hidden Easter egg, and Architect Entertainment wings all connect. Once I was comfortable with that I participated in an MSR to my satisfaction. 

 

I don't think it was difficult to find my way around after I looked on my own.

 

Did anyone mention the new design to their teams before running content in these anecdotes? And was the extra 5 minutes getting to the mission that big of an inconvenience? If a "bad" player learns how to navigate to a mission instead of just mashing Team Teleporter or Mission Teleporter, is that a bad thing for the rest of the community? They could then pass that information along to others to prevent it from happening. 

[Sunsette]

1 minute ago, Glacier Peak said:

Did anyone mention the new design to their teams before running content in these anecdotes? 

 

Yes, every time I've led a tinpex and several times I've been a secondary on one.

  

1 minute ago, Glacier Peak said:

And was the extra 5 minutes getting to the mission that big of an inconvenience? 

 

People feel pressure to not be the last one in and get embarrassed easily. Occasionally other players are straight up jerks about it, too. And it's hard to get people to keep from going ahead on Tinpex, so have ended up with newbies or recently-returned who show up to a map just in time for everything else to be done.

 

These changes are never about some grave injustice or harm, they're about acknowledgment of likely outcomes and mitigating them.

[macskull]

I brought this up during beta testing when I got got by a waypoint. Coming from outside the base, any waypoint inside the base appears to simply point at a random spot below the ground, and vice versa for waypoints outside the base while you're in the base. Yes, I understand it's a side effect of the base actually being connected to the rest of the map now, but if it's throwing off people who've been playing the game and doing the content for a long time, it's probably even more confusing to those who haven't.

 

Waypoints seemingly directing you to nonexistent locations is bad UX. It's annoying on other maps (especially Skyway) where the mission door is in a tunnel or something, but it's especially annoying in RWZ because the way waypoints are used to navigate that zone has fundamentally changed.

[Glacier Peak]

1 minute ago, Sunsette said:

 

Yes, every time I've led a tinpex and several times I've been a secondary on one.

  

 

People feel pressure to not be the last one in and get embarrassed easily. Occasionally other players are straight up jerks about it, too. And it's hard to get people to keep from going ahead on Tinpex, so have ended up with newbies or recently-returned who show up to a map just in time for everything else to be done.

 

These changes are never about some grave injustice or harm, they're about acknowledgment of likely outcomes and mitigating them.

Well if it can't be helped, what are the specific design changes being requested and how has the suggestion been validated to mitigate the aforementioned inconvenience?

 

It sounds like just making the mission waypoints actually connect to the mission doors.

[Shin Magmus]

3 minutes ago, Sunsette said:

 

Yes, every time I've led a tinpex and several times I've been a secondary on one.

 

Staggeringly common on Everlasting, as my anecdotal experience.  Not every time, but surely around half for me.  25% was an underestimate.

[Rudra]

10 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

I'm not moved by the reasoning for this suggestion, but I'm not against it. 

 

My perspective on the new design was that because I was used to it a certain way for many years, I take should take initiative and see what has changed before doing anything else in the zone.

 

I spent upwards of 30 minutes looking at how the motor pool, infirmary, hidden Easter egg, and Architect Entertainment wings all connect. Once I was comfortable with that I participated in an MSR to my satisfaction. 

 

I don't think it was difficult to find my way around after I looked on my own.

 

Did anyone mention the new design to their teams before running content in these anecdotes? And was the extra 5 minutes getting to the mission that big of an inconvenience? If a "bad" player learns how to navigate to a mission instead of just mashing Team Teleporter or Mission Teleporter, is that a bad thing for the rest of the community? They could then pass that information along to others to prevent it from happening. 

I'm more or less fine with the additions. After I ran around exploring it, navigating it became easy. However, I do have two complaints about it as demonstrated by my previous post. The 2 hallways that lead past the infirmary blend in extremely well. It took me multiple passes to finally realize they were there. So making those hallways more easily identifiable would be nice. Also, the junction at the lounge is mismarked. There is a sign that says RWZ and points left, but if you follow it, you will never enter the RWZ itself because it takes you to a door that gives you access to the 2 portal rooms; one of which takes you into other zones and the other of which is a mission door.

 

Edit: Also, just for awareness, there are now 4 entrances to the RWZ. 2 of them require you to go up directly under your own power.

Edited March 31 by Rudra

[ThatGuyCDude]

Every time I've been in the Vanguard base in Rikti War Zone, I've been hopelessly lost.  I try to follow the arrows to 'Warzone' on the walls, but they end up leading me down a winding hallway that then has me climbing a dozen flights of stairs to get back to the surface.  I found an opening I could fly out of once, but each time I look up roaming about that place all the bunker doors seem to be closed... I can't find the open one anymore [I really wish all of them were open so I could just fly in or fly out close to the waypoints I'm following].  I know there's a green portal that'll warp back to the surface, but following the arrows doesn't seem to lead there (as Rudra said, they instead appear to point to a Portal Corps connection).

I recommend adding colored lines on the floor that lead to various areas of the base, like you'd see in a hospital.  Follow the green line on the floor and you'll get to the portal.  Follow the blue line and you'll get to relevant door B.  Et cetera ad infinitum.  When I go to Rikti War Zone of my own volition it's not a problem because I have time to roam around, but if I'm in a pick-up group for content the base becomes extremely frustrating, and I've been the 'noob' player that held up a team by not getting out of the base fast enough.  It doesn't feel good for us either.

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, ThatGuyCDude said:

Every time I've been in the Vanguard base in Rikti War Zone, I've been hopelessly lost.  I try to follow the arrows to 'Warzone' on the walls, but they end up leading me down a winding hallway that then has me climbing a dozen flights of stairs to get back to the surface.  I found an opening I could fly out of once, but each time I look up roaming about that place all the bunker doors seem to be closed... I can't find the open one anymore [I really wish all of them were open so I could just fly in or fly out close to the waypoints I'm following].  I know there's a green portal that'll warp back to the surface, but following the arrows doesn't seem to lead there (as Rudra said, they instead appear to point to a Portal Corps connection).

I recommend adding colored lines on the floor that lead to various areas of the base, like you'd see in a hospital.  Follow the green line on the floor and you'll get to the portal.  Follow the blue line and you'll get to relevant door B.  Et cetera ad infinitum.  When I go to Rikti War Zone of my own volition it's not a problem because I have time to roam around, but if I'm in a pick-up group for content the base becomes extremely frustrating, and I've been the 'noob' player that held up a team by not getting out of the base fast enough.  It doesn't feel good for us either.

Just so you know where they are, one of the fly/jump/teleport up points from the base to the RWZ is in the bay area behind the quartermaster. Go through the now open gate and proceed to the right back from there. You will see the open platform area above you. The other spot is in the motor pool area, also basically in the back right from where you enter from the hall. Then there are the stairs and the Vanguard portal that was always there like you said. Hope this helps.

[Shin Magmus]

30 minutes ago, ThatGuyCDude said:

Every time I've been in the Vanguard base in Rikti War Zone, I've been hopelessly lost.  I try to follow the arrows to 'Warzone' on the walls, but they end up leading me down a winding hallway that then has me climbing a dozen flights of stairs to get back to the surface.  I found an opening I could fly out of once, but each time I look up roaming about that place all the bunker doors seem to be closed... I can't find the open one anymore [I really wish all of them were open so I could just fly in or fly out close to the waypoints I'm following].  I know there's a green portal that'll warp back to the surface, but following the arrows doesn't seem to lead there (as Rudra said, they instead appear to point to a Portal Corps connection).

I recommend adding colored lines on the floor that lead to various areas of the base, like you'd see in a hospital.  Follow the green line on the floor and you'll get to the portal.  Follow the blue line and you'll get to relevant door B.  Et cetera ad infinitum.  When I go to Rikti War Zone of my own volition it's not a problem because I have time to roam around, but if I'm in a pick-up group for content the base becomes extremely frustrating, and I've been the 'noob' player that held up a team by not getting out of the base fast enough.  It doesn't feel good for us either.

Well if it makes you feel any better, you're far from the only person getting lost.  It's so common that it's why I decided to make this thread.

[Uun]

Brought this up a month ago.

 

 

[tidge]

I'll join the brigade: getting to mission doors in the new RWZ is much harder than I expect it to be.

[Lightslinger]

Agreed, mission waypoints for Tinpex feels pretty borked at the moment.

[ThatGuyCDude]

I was in the base again yesterday and I finally saw the lines on the floor; I was able to follow them to the surface portal.  The color difference between the steel floor and these lines (which are a pastel violet hue) is perhaps not dramatic enough... using a bright green or yellow instead to pop the color out relative to the other cool colors of the base could draw the eyes of players new to the base and help them recognize the guides.

[lemming]

I finally found the easter egg in the new RWZ.

Edited April 4 by lemming

[Infinitum]

The worst part of it is right after you defeat the first Goliath War Walker.  The arrow for the War Zone points left - that doesn't take you to the war zone.  It keeps taking you deeper in the base and I ended up getting more turned around and had to base portal my way out to go back in the war zone to find the exit.  In fact if you are viewing that wall with the arrow - pull a 180 and go that way - maybe I missed it but that happened today while running a Tin Mage - it was the first one where I didn't have TT on a character.   

 

That needs to be fixed to orient the player properly for a clean not confusing exit to the war zone. 

[Doomguide2005]

Yep needs work.  Count me as another vet who tried to use the waypoints and got utterly lost by those markers.  We're good now but sheesh was it frustrating trying to get un-lost the first time or two till the key required corridors got mentally mapped so I could basically ignore the not so helpful waypoints.