Cones, and the strangeness of procs

[Snarky]

So…. I am looking at the math on procs.  Decent formulas there.  If i was not so rusty on calculus i made do some messing with them to find sweet spots.  But there are questions, always questions.  
 

I tend to go plus range. In the power if possible.  Although that is more common on ST that ranged AoE.  Then there is +range from set bonuses.  I also use Alpha Intuition for +20% range.  This adds up.  My snipe is a vicious thing and my cones tend to be effective.  But…questions. 
 

The HC wiki gives the formula for calculating proc chances for cones. The radius is just the standard length of the cone.  But it makes no mention of the effect of 1) +range enhancers 2) set bonus +range 3) incarnate alpha +range on the formula.  So…. At least one question is answered. The damn formula for cones is useless.   

[tidge]

 +Range doesn't increase the inherent number of targets hit, it only increases the potential number of targets to be hit from where the player is positioned.

 

I find increasing Range (on a power-by-power basis) to be valuable when

1. There are clear outliers in an attack chain which have much shorter ranges than other attacks (often, these are cones)
2. There is some attack I want to use to get the attention of enemies "way over yonder" to help speed up map cleaning

With regard to the second point, I boosted the range of Umbral Torrent on my Dark/- Blaster, even though it has an inherent 80-ft range, specifically because it is a very handy way to get the attention of distant spawns... plus Knockback/Knockdown is fun, and the short duration -ToHit is a wee bit of mitigation when used against enemies that can retaliate immediately.

 

 

[Uun]

You want @Bopper's proc calculator spreadsheet.

 

 

 

[Hedgefund]

The pro% rate for cones is unaffected by +range. The formula is right, the additional targets for pr%cs at the extended end of the cone are "free".

[arcane]

Proc rates are unaffected by range changes because proc rates rely on radius, not range. A power’s internal radius value doesn’t change when you enhance its range.

[KaizenSoze]

59 minutes ago, tidge said:

With regard to the second point, I boosted the range of Umbral Torrent on my Dark/- Blaster, even though it has an inherent 80-ft range, specifically because it is a very handy way to get the attention of distant spawns... plus Knockback/Knockdown is fun, and the short duration -ToHit is a wee bit of mitigation when used against enemies that can retaliate immediately.

 

 

Umbral Torrent is a lot of fun. It's not hard to get the range over 100. I have several times hit the spawn in front of me and the part of next spawn down the hall.

 

I feel like the key to cones is maximizing the number of targets hit over the damage. It's a sliding scale, not binary calculation.

[Shred Monkey]

I think the proc question was answered.... just adding that I'm with you on enhancing cones for range. 

 

The area is PI*R^2 x (angle/360)... Increasing R is increasing the squared component... so you're double dipping on the enhancement value.   20% range increase increase the area 44%.  40% enhancement = 96% more area.  And more importantly, that added area is right were you want it to be, out there in front of you where the spawn is.  Practically speaking, a blaster's cone with boosted range range easily doubles the targets hit on a regular basis.  It's literally the difference between reliably hitting 1/2 a spawn versus reliably hitting the full spawn.  And it comes with no added risk from having to enter closer to melee range.

[Snarky]

3 hours ago, Shred Monkey said:

I think the proc question was answered.... just adding that I'm with you on enhancing cones for range. 

 

The area is PI*R^2 x (angle/360)... Increasing R is increasing the squared component... so you're double dipping on the enhancement value.   20% range increase increase the area 44%.  40% enhancement = 96% more area.  And more importantly, that added area is right were you want it to be, out there in front of you where the spawn is.  Practically speaking, a blaster's cone with boosted range range easily doubles the targets hit on a regular basis.  It's literally the difference between reliably hitting 1/2 a spawn versus reliably hitting the full spawn.  And it comes with no added risk from having to enter closer to melee range.

My Corr is frankenslotted to +45% range through set bonuses, and another +20% through Intuition Radial Alpha.   +65% !!! This is a serious attack chain that is easy to lean into.  My AR Blaster rocks +35% range, +55% with alpha.

Edited April 12 by Snarky

[Shred Monkey]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

AR Blaster rocks +35% range, +55% with alpha.

 

One of these days I'm going to do an AR build focusing on exploiting cones.

[Jacke]

12 hours ago, Snarky said:

The HC wiki gives the formula for calculating proc chances for cones. The radius is just the standard length of the cone.  But it makes no mention of the effect of 1) +range enhancers 2) set bonus +range 3) incarnate alpha +range on the formula.  So…. At least one question is answered. The damn formula for cones is useless.   

 

I asked in the Gold Standard Testers Discord (where the Closed Beta Testers hang out with the Devs) about Range in the PPM formula.  It's the Base Range.  As @arcane pointed out above, it's Radius in the PPM formula, so +Range wouldn't affect it.  But in fact, everything in the PPM formula is from Base values (including the non-Arcanatime Cast-Time) except the Recharge.  I imagine so its calculation is mostly simple and only needs adjusting from the slotted and Alpha Boost Recharge Reduction.

 

 

6 hours ago, tidge said:

 +Range doesn't increase the inherent number of targets hit, it only increases the potential number of targets to be hit from where the player is positioned.

 

Excellent point!  But I find on some powers with under-80ft ranges (Cone Range AoE Attacks, I'm looking at you!), upping their range improves the chance a particular attack will actually have more than the max-targets in the cone and thus max-out the effect.  So many times (Cone Melee AoE Attacks, I'm looking at you!) it's hard to even have max-targets in the AoE.

 

 

6 hours ago, tidge said:

I find increasing Range (on a power-by-power basis) to be valuable when

1. There are clear outliers in an attack chain which have much shorter ranges than other attacks (often, these are cones)
2. There is some attack I want to use to get the attention of enemies "way over yonder" to help speed up map cleaning

With regard to the second point, I boosted the range of Umbral Torrent on my Dark/- Blaster, even though it has an inherent 80-ft range, specifically because it is a very handy way to get the attention of distant spawns... plus Knockback/Knockdown is fun, and the short duration -ToHit is a wee bit of mitigation when used against enemies that can retaliate immediately.

 

My thoughts are similar.  I often look at a full 6-set of Artillery on Cone Range AoE attacks for the big +Range as well as the sweet +R Def bonuses.

 

 

Edited April 12 by Jacke

[Jacke]

54 minutes ago, Shred Monkey said:

One of these days I'm going to do an AR build focusing on exploiting cones.

 

Been there, done that since 2006.  😸  Since I started maining an AR/Dev Blaster.  Now with Buckshot, Flamethrower, Ignite, and Full Auto each slotted with a 6-set of Artillery for the big +Range and the sweet, sweet +R Def bonuses.

 

Back then I also read a City-of-Heroes forum article on the AR/Energy Blaster, the true Master of Cones.  With Energy Manipulation's Boost Range power, got crazy.  But I preferred the powers in Devices.  Targeting Drone alone makes Devices the best Secondary evar!  But wait, there's more!  Cloaking Device Field Operative, Trip Mine, and Gun Drone, oh my!

[Techwright]

Not to derail Snarky's OP, but this looks like a reasonable spot to ask a question that's been bugging me for some time:  Do the arcs vary between cone powers or do they all have the same specific arc?  In times past, I've been frustrated firing off some cone effect or other that repeatedly missed anything not standing almost directly in front of me, and the missing, oh, maybe 10 to 15 degrees on either side have me wondering if different cones effects use different arcs.  That information would seem important. "This arc fires a 45 degree arc" "that arc shoots a 30 degree arc".

[tidge]

Different powers have different arcs: https://cod.uberguy.net/

[Snarky]

2 hours ago, Techwright said:

Not to derail Snarky's OP, but this looks like a reasonable spot to ask a question that's been bugging me for some time:  Do the arcs vary between cone powers or do they all have the same specific arc?  In times past, I've been frustrated firing off some cone effect or other that repeatedly missed anything not standing almost directly in front of me, and the missing, oh, maybe 10 to 15 degrees on either side have me wondering if different cones effects use different arcs.  That information would seem important. "This arc fires a 45 degree arc" "that arc shoots a 30 degree arc".

Oh, arcs vary WILDLY even within sets.  thin little arcs like sharp pencils to fat arcs like whale tails.  Then add in the varying lengths....    

 

I run a lot of "cone projectors"  I think my max was 6-7.  I either sort by range or effect type.  That way my first pass down the chain is most efficient.  

 

The degree, while important is not a huge deal.  THE most important thing is picking your "anchor"  You are bowling.  You throw the ball, hit the main pin, and chaos happens beyond.  Preferable targets are EB Bosses that you then use to line up your nonstop conga line of cones on all their friends.  You may not be doing a ton of damage, but a build with a lot of cones and/or recharge can fire these non stop.  At a certain point the enemy gets the message.