raid Once again asking for an instanced Hamidon Raid

[Laucianna]

21 minutes ago, GM Crumpet said:

Without getting into the pro's and cons that people have mentioned, and speaking as a player rather than a GM, I like the idea of the option of an instanced version. These things go in cycles. The MSR instance languished unused for a long time, but has started to pick up in popularity on Excelsior. Now it's at least 50/50 which version the league leader runs.

 

Each shard has their own way of running these two events, and it's up to the league leaders how they decide to run them. An instanced version would be one more tool for the league leaders to use if they wish. 

 

Saying that, I don't know how hard or easy it would be for the devs to make an instanced version. They also have a lot to do so it's a matter of someone having the time to actually create an instanced version. It also might be an absolute nightmare to create. 

 

Hami is the only one where multi boxing is forbidden. We relaxed the rule on MSR a long time ago, but Hami is a special case.

Yeah I wouldn't want a huge amount of focus on this from the devs as I imagine they are already overworked as it is, but if it is something feasible I would like it to be made ❤️ Because I know soon the day will come where the zone fills without me and I can not get on any earlier, and I do not want to deal with the headache of a dozen tells saying their there but are in abyss 1, then people asking why we are not in abyss 1, it's a lot of added stress onto an already taxing task 😄 But it will lead to me being kicked out of my own event which is crazy to think about in any other context imo.

[Wispur]

3 hours ago, biostem said:

And you want to be able to force other players to submit to the whims or demands of raid and incarnate trial leaders or miss out on said content.  Heck, the content could be like 99% complete, and said leaders could simply boot people to deny them the rewards.

You could make the same argument for Task Forces and even mission teams.
But the fact is, we're in a large community of people, and the Hamidon leaders are pretty well-known, if the leaders started abusing players, they wouldn't be leaders for long.

And there are 48 spots in a Hamidon Raid.  It's not a clique type of thing.
We need everyone we can get to make it work, that's *why* we want instanced Hamidon, to make sure everyone *is* working towards the goal.

[biostem]

17 minutes ago, Wispur said:

that's *why* we want instanced Hamidon, to make sure everyone *is* working towards the goal.

Describe to me the ways in which a league leader can "make sure everyone *is* working towards the goal".  Does it involve threats of being kicked and banning from future raids?   Maybe by maintaining some sort of "blacklist"?  Oooh!  Maybe people could then share out that list!  Who cares if someone was put on there justifiably or not...

 

20 minutes ago, Wispur said:

And there are 48 spots in a Hamidon Raid.  It's not a clique type of thing.

The "clique thing" is more about who decides who can join or not - it need not be every single league member.

 

21 minutes ago, Wispur said:

You could make the same argument for Task Forces and even mission teams.

It is a difference of scale;  What's easier to organize, 2-8 people or 48?  It is also a difference of precedent - were TFs ever open for randos to just run without being on a team?  Does team or task force content require a league to accomplish?

[Lunar Ronin]

8 minutes ago, biostem said:

Describe to me the ways in which a league leader can "make sure everyone *is* working towards the goal".  Does it involve threats of being kicked and banning from future raids?   Maybe by maintaining some sort of "blacklist"?  Oooh!  Maybe people could then share out that list!  Who cares if someone was put on there justifiably or not...

 

 

[Cobalt Azurean]

Instanced? Yes please. There's already a version in the LGTF, so I don't see why this isn't a viable option from the devs' perspective.

[lemming]

Here's a question for the instanced version idea:

 

How to get EoEs?

 

Start the instance and it would be maybe a copy of the Hive with enough GMs to spawn the Hami in the usual 5-50 GM defeats?

 

Other idea would be instead of the usual spots for the wall of GMs, just have an area that has a group of GMs (maybe one for each player in leage) and once they are defeated, Hami pops.

[golstat2003]

I’m for an instanced version for all the reasonable reasons the raid leaders have stated.

 

I’d also like to personally thank them for leading these. I tried leading one back on live and it was an absolute shit show. It is NOT at all easy to run, despite how easy they make it look. And Hami is indeed one of the things that is stupidly easy to grief, just by the way the encounter is built. So anything to minimize the potential for it to be trolled I’m for.

 

It is not like the MSR or other league level content. MSR is already instanced. And other league content you can kick players out of.

 

Having 49 other players respect you enough to listen to you is something earned, not expected. Anything to make their lives easier I’m for.

 

Hami is the only content I think that is consistently run by the raid leaders on Everlasting and Excelsior that I know I can drop into at scheduled times and it’s well run each time, thanks to these key individuals.

 

So again, +1 for instances Hami as an option for the Homecoming community.

[Wispur]

I think you're overthinking things a bit. 😅
 

2 hours ago, biostem said:

Describe to me the ways in which a league leader can "make sure everyone *is* working towards the goal".  Does it involve threats of being kicked and banning from future raids?   Maybe by maintaining some sort of "blacklist"?  Oooh!  Maybe people could then share out that list!  Who cares if someone was put on there justifiably or not...

Oh, that's simple, if someone isn't doing anything to contribute, we can kick them from the league to make room for someone who will contribute.
That's one of the nice things about this whole instanced raid thing, people who cause issues don't become dead weight that we need to carry around for the rest of the raid.

And like I said earlier, sure, we do have a Blacklist, and there's exactly one person on it.  And they're on it because they've harassed or been creepy to multiple women.  
That's it.  So, as long as a person doesn't harass others repeatedly, they probably won't make it on to the blacklist... after all, nobody else has. 
 

2 hours ago, biostem said:

The "clique thing" is more about who decides who can join or not - it need not be every single league member.

As someone who leads the Hamidon raids from time to time and is good friends with most of the others who do too, I promise you, this simply isn't how it works.
We take who is available.  Often times we don't even have enough regulars for the necessary roles and ask new people to fill in for the roles.
And our invitation process is "Ask for an invite in broadcast" and then we start inviting people from there.  It's all pretty transparent. 💙

It'd be the same for recruitment process for instanced raids too.
Basically the same as it is for most large group content in the game.

Edited May 8 by Wispur

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, lemming said:

Here's a question for the instanced version idea:

 

How to get EoEs?

 

Start the instance and it would be maybe a copy of the Hive with enough GMs to spawn the Hami in the usual 5-50 GM defeats?

 

Other idea would be instead of the usual spots for the wall of GMs, just have an area that has a group of GMs (maybe one for each player in leage) and once they are defeated, Hami pops.

There is also the question of what if not enough EoEs drop. I've been on a few raids that Hami popped and most of the league still didn't have even one EoE to their names. Others with more shared, but a large number of players had to go to the AH to get EoEs. And you can't access the AH in an instance.

[golstat2003]

33 minutes ago, Rudra said:

There is also the question of what if not enough EoEs drop. I've been on a few raids that Hami popped and most of the league still didn't have even one EoE to their names. Others with more shared, but a large number of players had to go to the AH to get EoEs. And you can't access the AH in an instance.

 

They can just make the Monsters in the Instanced version drop more EoEs. They can control enemy drop rates. Pretty easy to solve.

[Lunar Ronin]

53 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

 

They can just make the Monsters in the Instanced version drop more EoEs. They can control enemy drop rates. Pretty easy to solve.

 

Or have a few people leave the instance, buy EoEs on the auction house and/or get them from their respective supergroup bases' storage, and then come back to the instance via the LFG menu.  Once back in the Hamidon raid instance, they can distribute them to everyone else.

Edited May 8 by Lunar Ronin

[shortguy on indom]

12 hours ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

 

Tell your friend to visit Glacier Peak on Indomitable.  I hear they are looking for new blood on Hammy raids!  😇

Really?

 

 

[shortguy on indom]

my points in above are these post could have been done in "non-official" capacity.

 

[shortguy on indom]

DRAFT.......DRAFT......DRAFT.....(categorizations only a draft for discussion's sake).
issues:  (some if not all happening on single shard only). (DRAFT).
⦁    overcrowding
⦁    excessive showing up early times
⦁    leechers/griefers
⦁    lost seeds
⦁    potential raid failures
⦁    no ability to 'kick' leechers/griefers
⦁    no ability to 'lead' non-leaguers

fixed by "instanced raid":  (DRAFT)
⦁    ability to 'kick'
⦁    ability to 'lead' since everyone is in league

not fixed by "instance raid":  (DRAFT)
⦁    overcrowding
⦁    excessive showing up early times
⦁    leechers/griefers
⦁    lost seeds
⦁    potential raid failures

[Laucianna]

4 minutes ago, shortguy on indom said:

DRAFT.......DRAFT......DRAFT.....(categorizations only a draft for discussion's sake).
issues:  (some if not all happening on single shard only). (DRAFT).
⦁    overcrowding
⦁    excessive showing up early times
⦁    leechers/griefers
⦁    lost seeds
⦁    potential raid failures
⦁    no ability to 'kick' leechers/griefers
⦁    no ability to 'lead' non-leaguers

fixed by "instanced raid":  (DRAFT)
⦁    ability to 'kick'
⦁    ability to 'lead' since everyone is in league

not fixed by "instance raid":  (DRAFT)
⦁    overcrowding
⦁    excessive showing up early times
⦁    leechers/griefers
⦁    lost seeds
⦁    potential raid failures

I know this is a draft (clearly 😄 ) But overcrowding is not an issue but the cause of an issue (Being showing up early) and the only thing the instanced does not fix in that list is potential raid failures, but that is always going to be an issue hun

[TheZag]

The solo player,  solo griefer,  solo troll,  solo afk'er,  solo anybody (all different people)  have no hope of ever defeating hamidon solo.  They all need the league leader to organize a league and secure the win.  There are only 2 major zone events where a league is commonly used -  hamidon and MSR.  Currently league leaders can choose to run iMSR which gives them some extra options to deal with trolls and griefers - removing a player from the league removes them from the inatance.  In over 150 iMSR's that ive attended,  not once has the leader needed to remove someone.  Either the trolls dont join in the first place or they participate because league removal means instance removal.  

 

Hamidon leaders dont have this option available currently.  The availability to remove players from the instance cleaned up MSR instantly.  The mere presence of a league moderation tool weeds out bad actors without ever using the tool.  I will admit that for hamidon it may see some use before the worst of the bunch either stop attending or start participating,  but without these raid leaders there is no raid.  It is a zone event which means anyone can be present,  but if we arent nitpicking,  it is their event.  Anyone can step up and run a raid but anyone didnt.  I would love to see an instanced version of the hamidon raid so league leaders can actually lead instead of just being the person who issues the instructions while most people help and a few people do whatever they want and get the rewards that everyone else earned.

 

 

[Ghost]

1 hour ago, shortguy on indom said:

Really?

 

 

Yes

I myself saw it written on a porta potty wall

[Laucianna]

To get this back on topic of ALL the reasons why an instanced would help rather then people tunnel visioning on 1 single reason:

MAIN - Excessive arrival times to attend your own event.
At the moment I am having to arrive an hour early to make sure I can get in before others, this isn't to organize or to set it up, this is just to secure my position in the zone. There is the chance I could form in Abyss 2 if Abyss 1 is full, but then I will have to deal with a ton of people sending tells saying they are in the zone when they are still in Abyss 1, a lot of added stress to the event just in that.

Instanced would allow me to arrive in Echo Plaza where there is a 200 player cap, 5-10 mins before starting, getting the teams set up, and going from there. This also adds the benefit of if there are enough people there someone from the first hami league can run a second overflow one much easier (This is already being done most days when we have a second league leader).


Leechers/Griefers
When everyone is in the league, it is easy to see how many are afk, how many are hiding buds, how many are doing x/y. If you are outside of the league in the open world, you could be doing it perfectly and better then the rest, but I as a league lead have zero idea of that, and so I can not adjust how it is ran based on that to make sure the event succeeds.

Instanced would allow me to know that everyone in the "zone" is on my little map so I can see when Jimmy runs off to log off early and takes a bud with him, unintentionally hiding it behind some rocks, it would also allow me to see people who are AFK since they either have the afk above their head after incan or don't accept incan, in which case we can wait a little bit for them to get back ❤️

 

 

To address concerns that people have kindly shown:

Blacklisting
I can not speak for all league leaders, but all the ones I speak to have a very select set of people they will exclude for their own personal reasons, not because we have a secret list we share about. I for one have a single person who has been an issue for over a year for creeping on myself and multiple girls, alongside comments I would not want to repeat.


Solo players
Sadly this will affect solo players who are helping, however similar to when or if you join an I-Trial, sometimes you need to join a league for the events that require a league to complete it.


EoE drops
They could up the drop rate of EoEs if that is possible, or people are normally more then happy to share the ones they have spare (I highly doubt this will affect the market since they sell for around 100 inf)



I believe those are all the issues but please remind me of any I have missed, I want to help clear this up for as many people in a way that isn't us vs them ❤️

[Duckbutler]

I'm sorry for the derailment, but can someone explain what the banjos are supposed to mean? Other than looking like a confused turkey on a small screen?

[shortguy on indom]

instanced development:  off the cuff

• an 'advanced hard mode hami'
• a 100 toon hami raid... when u die, you are "out"
• "multiple bloom number" choice hami spawns
• ....and development of anything else which anyone could think of other than for the main reasoning to be leeching on a single shard. 

 

 

[Wispur]

28 minutes ago, TheZag said:

The solo player,  solo griefer,  solo troll,  solo afk'er,  solo anybody (all different people)  have no hope of ever defeating hamidon solo.  They all need the league leader to organize a league and secure the win.  There are only 2 major zone events where a league is commonly used -  hamidon and MSR.  Currently league leaders can choose to run iMSR which gives them some extra options to deal with trolls and griefers - removing a player from the league removes them from the inatance.  In over 150 iMSR's that ive attended,  not once has the leader needed to remove someone.  Either the trolls dont join in the first place or they participate because league removal means instance removal.  

 

Hamidon leaders dont have this option available currently.  The availability to remove players from the instance cleaned up MSR instantly.  The mere presence of a league moderation tool weeds out bad actors without ever using the tool.  I will admit that for hamidon it may see some use before the worst of the bunch either stop attending or start participating,  but without these raid leaders there is no raid.  It is a zone event which means anyone can be present,  but if we arent nitpicking,  it is their event.  Anyone can step up and run a raid but anyone didnt.  I would love to see an instanced version of the hamidon raid so league leaders can actually lead instead of just being the person who issues the instructions while most people help and a few people do whatever they want and get the rewards that everyone else earned.

I would like to highlight this, put a gold border around it, and slap stickers all over it.
Wonderfully stated!

[GM Crumpet]

this thread seems to have run it's course. Locking it for now.