How do we fail new players?

[Black Talon]

Haven't gone through the entire thread yet - but I will, boss, I will! - but I do have to give GM Crumpet (and is there anything more terrifying than a name that makes you want to invite someone in for an English breakfast?) commentary my full marks.  CoH, in its original and current iteration, was crafted for people who value the journey more than reaching the destination.  Back in '04 - '05 and hit 50?  Might as well go into semi-retirement and just pick up the occasional badge while working on Alt X.

 

Toward the end of the run, back in 2010 - 12 or thereabouts, the Devs did put some serious work into trying to construct an endgame, with IOs and the AE system.  Post '19, we've seen some potentially huge expansions with the Incarnate system, and the Ides of March bad guy upgrades.  Yet the truth of the matter is that the joy should still be in the 1 - 50 journey, and the dozens of souvenirs that can be put in the catalogue and run through during the quiet moments.  Those who are anticipating some kind of deification after the 50 is hit...you're barking up the wrong tree.  Best of luck in locating a more suitable set-up, and meanwhile, we'll be sticking it out here and working toward the day when Countess Crey can be confronted in her subterranean lair, mere hours from fleeing the country forever...

[Seed22]

5 minutes ago, Black Talon said:

Haven't gone through the entire thread yet - but I will, boss, I will! - but I do have to give GM Crumpet (and is there anything more terrifying than a name that makes you want to invite someone in for an English breakfast?) commentary my full marks.  CoH, in its original and current iteration, was crafted for people who value the journey more than reaching the destination.  Back in '04 - '05 and hit 50?  Might as well go into semi-retirement and just pick up the occasional badge while working on Alt X.

 

Toward the end of the run, back in 2010 - 12 or thereabouts, the Devs did put some serious work into trying to construct an endgame, with IOs and the AE system.  Post '19, we've seen some potentially huge expansions with the Incarnate system, and the Ides of March bad guy upgrades.  Yet the truth of the matter is that the joy should still be in the 1 - 50 journey, and the dozens of souvenirs that can be put in the catalogue and run through during the quiet moments.  Those who are anticipating some kind of deification after the 50 is hit...you're barking up the wrong tree.  Best of luck in locating a more suitable set-up, and meanwhile, we'll be sticking it out here and working toward the day when Countess Crey can be confronted in her subterranean lair, mere hours from fleeing the country forever...

The thing is, for SOME it was the journey. While sure there never really is much to post 50 content, I know that even back in ‘06-‘07, playing my redside stalker in a duo, I wanted to see whats at the end of the tunnel more than focusing on the road to get there.

 

There were some fun arcs of course, but I always liked having a fully slotted 50 to go back and exempt through content with or really back then just stay and play at 50. 
 

I get the whole liking the journey thing though, and respect it.

[Excraft]

Allowing people to make their own choices about what they want to do and how they'd like to play would be a great start in my opinion.  Engaging with people to start a discussion with them about what it is they're after is a good idea too, not trying to force feed our way of thinking on them.

 

7 hours ago, GM Crumpet said:

I see accounts a month old with a dozen or more 50's. I automatically assume they power levelled up as there is no way they can get that many that quickly. Are they enjoying the game? I hope so. Fingers crossed they get bored sitting in a farm and start actually playing. 

 

I agree, you're right in assuming that these are more than likely PL'ed characters, however you also seem to be assuming that these are brand new accounts made by brand new players unfamiliar with the game and aren't alt accounts of a Vet who has already played the game for 20 years. 

 

4 hours ago, Ukase said:

The entire channel devolves into what's "optimal" or "most efficient". They no longer care about answering any questions. They just want to be right. And they want their right way to be the right way for everyone - when it will rarely be right for everyone. 

To me, this is the biggest way where we fail our new players. Meanwhile, the new player is "what are these guys even talking about with all this alphabet soup acronyms?" 
We're so busy thinking about how right we are, we've lost sight of the player actually looking for information, not e-peen size. 

 

Well said. 

[PeregrineFalcon]

8 hours ago, mechahamham said:

What ways do you see that we fail new players and what are your suggestions for fixing those problems?

We don't.

 

We are players in this game. We aren't developers. We aren't part of The Council of Thirteen. We have no responsibility to other players or to the health of the game. Period.

 

No rights without responsibilities, and no responsibilities without rights. If you're going to try to hold me responsible for the new player experience then you give me the tools and the authority to do something about it. What? You don't want to give me any tools or authority? Well then f**k all the way off with trying to hold me responsible for something that I have absolutely no control over.

 

Why is it whenever there's a thread about new players, or the new player experience, the assumption is always that the new player is an unmotivated lump - too stupid to learn anything on their own? Why is that? You were a new player once. Did you ever learn anything on your own, or did you only ever learn when someone was holding your hand and force feeding you info?

[Bionic_Flea]

Edited June 4 by Bionic_Flea

[ZemX]

12 minutes ago, Excraft said:

Allowing people to make their own choices about what they want to do and how they'd like to play would be a great start in my opinion.

 

Nobody is preventing people from making their own choices in this game.  Nobody can, no matter what people suggest here on the forums.  But with choices come consequences.  If you're PLing to 50 after having already become an expert on the game, you know exactly what you're doing.   If you drop in brand new and this is the first thing you do?  Yeah, you're gonna end up 50 with no idea what to do next and maybe not enough resources to do it.  That's not the community's fault.  That's their fault.

 

Volumes of information about this game are literally at anyone's fingertips.  But you gotta lift that one finger first to find out.

 

Am I really just being that much a cranky old man gamer here?  Has gaming "culture" advanced to the point where people really expect to be lead around by the nose in tutorial after in-game tutorial these days or they have no idea how to proceed?   

[Excraft]

2 minutes ago, ZemX said:

ut with choices come consequences.  If you're PLing to 50 after having already become an expert on the game, you know exactly what you're doing.   If you drop in brand new and this is the first thing you do?  Yeah, you're gonna end up 50 with no idea what to do next and maybe not enough resources to do it.  That's not the community's fault.  That's their fault.

 

I completely agree. 

[Eiko-chan]

6 minutes ago, ZemX said:

Has gaming "culture" advanced to the point where people really expect to be lead around by the nose in tutorial after in-game tutorial these days or they have no idea how to proceed?   

Yes. Because when we were young, our games came with little pretty booklets and manuals for us to read to learn how to play and experience the game. Now, games do not come with manuals, printed or digital, and thus the instructions on how to play and experience the game need to be baked into the game instead.

[ZacKing]

3 minutes ago, Eiko-chan said:

Yes. Because when we were young, our games came with little pretty booklets and manuals for us to read to learn how to play and experience the game. Now, games do not come with manuals, printed or digital, and thus the instructions on how to play and experience the game need to be baked into the game instead.

 

Those printed materials have been replaced with video tutorials and player generated instructional "how-to" videos all over social media. 

[Luminara]

So... this isn't about sacrificing newbies to the old gods (and occasionally making sandwiches with the leftovers)?  I'm cool?

[Eiko-chan]

8 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

Those printed materials have been replaced with video tutorials and player generated instructional "how-to" videos all over social media. 

"Player generated"? So something that developers used to do is now on their customers to do? 

[battlewraith]

Or maybe the problem doesn't have anything to do with learning the game. It's pretty straightforward to roll a character, pop into Atlas, run up to some purse snatcher, maybe defeat a few of them, and then gas out. You have to take a knee to get end and health back. And this state of affairs will pretty much continue until you can grind enough resources to make a build that will permit continual activity. Imagine a version of Mario Kart where you had to stop and gas up the cart every 40 seconds.

 

And what do you do in the meantime? Defeat thousands of mobs in extremely repetitive encounters in order to follow some narrative threads. Can't imagine why anyone would want to skip any of that.

 

This game is loaded with early 2000s game design-isms. It could be that new players recognize that MMOs are basically about communal grinding and don't want to go through a tedious asthma-attack simulator to get to what are actually the core activities for most players. The failure, if anything, is the inability to see that.

[JasperStone]

15 minutes ago, Luminara said:

So... this isn't about sacrificing newbies to the old gods (and occasionally making sandwiches with the leftovers)?  I'm cool?

um...

yes?

*quietly shoves altar into a closet

<.<

<.<

nothing to see here...Nope

[ZacKing]

1 minute ago, Eiko-chan said:

"Player generated"? So something that developers used to do is now on their customers to do? 

 

This isn't what I said and I think you know that.  

 

The game already has tutorials which cover the basics of how to play and other stuff like the invention system, AE etc.  That type of content is up to developers to create and maintain.  Believe it or not, some game companies do make their own video walk-throughs and such to explain the game and new features.  It's cheaper today for them to record someone doing a play session and uploading it to YouTube - where it can generate revenue for them - than it is to produce and ship expensive printed materials that will usually go out of date with the next game update. 

As for player generated content, yes there's usually an abundance of it out there and provides a lot more valuable information and tribal knowledge than anything developers would create. 

[Eiko-chan]

16 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

This isn't what I said and I think you know that.  

That sure seemed to me to be what you were saying. How am I supposed to know that the words you wrote were not the meaning you meant to convey? 😕

[Ukase]

54 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Why is it whenever there's a thread about new players, or the new player experience, the assumption is always that the new player is an unmotivated lump - too stupid to learn anything on their own? Why is that? You were a new player once. Did you ever learn anything on your own, or did you only ever learn when someone was holding your hand and force feeding you info?

 Candidly speaking, when I was a new player, I was level 23, or maybe 24, on my elec/elec blaster. 
There was a respec tf, and it was over - somehow we'd succeeded. 
Afterwards, since I'd leveled up, I went to train and was quite puzzled. 

I had already chosen a 6th slot for one blast attack or another. (Please note that elsewhere in these forums I talk about literacy being a prerequisite). See, I saw this list of "allowed enhancement types", and presumed it meant I was supposed to slot one of each kind. And because the power in question could accept more than 6 kinds, I was at a loss as to how I was supposed to accomplish this since there were only six slots. 

Can you imagine? A blaster defying convention and even the t-1 attacks had 
1 accuracy

1 damage

1 recharge

1 end reduction

1 end modification (if they'd take 'em) 

If a power could only accept one kind of enhancement - that power only got one slot. 

As I type this, it sounds like an interesting challenge character in the making. 

So, puzzled as I was, I reached out to this friendly teammate, whom I remember only as "Mr. Sticky", who strongly suggested I read the forums. 
I didn't even recall knowing about any forums until he suggested I look. It was then I began my education. And I still learn stuff every day. Well, most days. 

The new player today doesn't really have that excuse. But maybe they do. Nobody reads much anymore. Half of you have already skipped this reply because it was more than 5 lines. 

And while it's true I am not responsible for anyone's entertainment, I do think it's in our collective best interest to try and be helpful to other players. It's just really hard to do that sometimes in the context of the help channel. 

[ZacKing]

6 minutes ago, Eiko-chan said:

That sure seemed to me to be what you were saying. How am I supposed to know that the words you wrote were not the meaning you meant to convey? 😕

 

Reading comprehension skills help.

 

44 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

Those printed materials have been replaced with video tutorials and player generated instructional "how-to" videos all over social media. 

 

Pay attention to how I didn't preface "video tutorials" with the words "player generated" as you thought.

 

36 minutes ago, Eiko-chan said:

So something that developers used to do is now on their customers to do?

 

Where exactly did I say that developers have no responsibility and that the onus is 100% on the customers now?  You made that up, not me.

[Eiko-chan]

15 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

Reading comprehension skills help.

 

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 hour ago, Eiko-chan said:

Yes. Because when we were young, our games came with little pretty booklets and manuals for us to read to learn how to play and experience the game. Now, games do not come with manuals, printed or digital, and thus the instructions on how to play and experience the game need to be baked into the game instead.

I get what you're saying but the world has changed. Games change, and the info needs to be able to change with it. Wikis and videos can do that, books cannot.

 

I've played a lot of MMOs, and other 'live service' games. None of them have any real info in game. None. So no, the info does not need to be in the game itself, and it won't be. It hasn't been in this game for 20 years, it isn't in game for the other 10,000 online games in existence, and that isn't likely to change.

 

Personally I'd much rather that the developers work on developing the game instead of spending time on in game data entry to constantly add and update in game info.

[Ukase]

4 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I've played a lot of MMOs, and other 'live service' games. None of them have any real info in game. None.

So, you certainly have the advantage of experience in other games. 

And I get that you'd prefer dev time being on other things besides in-game info. 

But I think to simply align with other games and not do what they're not doing isn't necessarily a proper path to take. Are those games successful because of that, or in spite of it? 

There's no question that the forums, City of Data, HC wiki have a ton of useful information. But it's my position that relying on external sources for this information is a short-term cure to a long term problem. 

Yes, the game could use more content, more powersets, more powerset tweaks, all kinds of things! And yes, there should be a priority. But I think this kind of information should be on that list somewhere. Not saying number 1 or even in the top 10. But it belongs in game. Why? So the player doesn't have to leave the game to learn the answer. 

People tend to have short attention spans, so


I really thought about stopping right there to illustrate the point about short attention spans. A cool song came on as I was typing. 
Anyway, when a player leaves the game to figure something out, there's no telling how deep that rabbit hole goes. If the help channel didn't exist, I suspect we'd have 1/5 of the players that we do now. People do not play a game to be frustrated, nor to be reminded "literacy is a pre-requisite". 

They certainly don't play a game to tab out and read for 30 minutes on the rule of 5. 

[PeregrineFalcon]

6 minutes ago, Ukase said:

 But it belongs in game. Why? So the player doesn't have to leave the game to learn the answer.

I would argue that the info being out of game is better because I don't have to be in game in order to look up info, plan a build, or maybe just read about something because I'm interested in it.

 

7 minutes ago, Ukase said:

People tend to have short attention spans, so

No. Children have short attention spans, adults do not. One of the defining characteristics of being a neuro-typical adult is the ability to concentrate on something for more than 5 minutes. Over 95% of people on Earth are neuro-typical. Trying to design a video game around the 5% or so that are atypical will result in a game that only 5% or so people are interested in playing.

 

Also, this game is over 20 years old. Already designed, built, refined and updated. It's not too old for updates, but it is too old for major overhauls. Please understand that this is what you're suggesting. You're essentially asking the devs to place the entire Homecoming wiki, or at least large portions of it, into the game. That's a lot of coding followed by a lot of data entry.

 

Why would you do that when people can just alt-tab and look something up on the wiki? There's zero functional difference between reading the info in game and alt-tabbing and then reading it on the wiki. What is so magical about being able to read the info without pressing alt-tab first?

[Eiko-chan]

39 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Wikis and videos can do that, books cannot.

There is nothing I hate more than the "pivot to video". Which was a lie, by the way. People didn't want to watch videos instead of reading things. People love reading things. There needs to be more reading and less videos.

[Neiska]

And now for my rebuttal, and I think I am going to remove my filter for this one.

 

1. New players rushing is wrong!

-No, it isn't. Not if said new players "choose" it. Sure, you can offer guidance and your opinion, but unless your name has a "Homecoming Staff" besides it, then what you have to say is just that, your opinion. Not a rule. Not a must-do. It is at best, a bias suggestion. And I find it amusing that on one hand, CoH likes to go "AE/farming BAD" but in the same breath goes "hey, here is unlimited EXP boosters!"

 

Not only that, but Where is it written "what" to do? Pray Tell, show me what rule says one MUST play a certain way? If a new player wants to hang out at pocket D at level 10, that's their business. If a player wants to not play superhero at all, and play investment simulator with the auction house, then that's their business. Who are you (not anyone in particular, speaking rhetorically here) to tell another person what activity is and is not allowed, good, or right? My only two questions are "did YOU have fun?" and "did THEY have fun?" should be the only two metrics of what "correct play" is. Because what "you" find fun, might be the part of the game someone else hates the most. 

 

2. Why don't some people (new and old alike) like doing PUG things?

- Speaking only for myself here, but not everyone likes or enjoys the PUG community here. For me there are a few reasons why, so I will break it down.

 

2a - The chat/commentary

- I have been playing since 2019. I have done a total of five, FIVE mothership raids, and ONE Hami raid, all of them in the last two weeks. And I doubt I will do so again. Because every single time without fail, the chat has turned into the worst of various reddit threads, many of which I can't even repeat here. Here are a few examples -

 

-NSFW Furry commentary.

-Controversial topics such as BLM, "my body my choice", etc.

-How some people of a particular political opinion should be arrested.

-How terrible incels are, and why they are to blame for every ill in society.

-How great communism is, and how bad capitalism is.

-LGBTQ dating, most of which I cannot repeat here.

-The current situation in Gaza, and how X side is wrong.

-Religion.

-Subscribe to my (adult content)

- The adult orientation of X fictional character.

etc etc.

 

Now, I don't care what people's opinions are on any of these topics. I don't care what your intimate orientation is. I don't care who you support politically. I don't care who or what you worship or consider sacred. That is none of my concern, nor my business. If anyone is interested in any of these things, there are reputable platforms to discuss such things. CoH is a lot of things, but a pillar of fair intellectual debate, the general or team channel is not. And I don't care to see any of it.

 

Normally, I would just ignore and press on. But it is so wild, common, and rampant that ignoring people 1 by 1 isn't any help. Its whack-a-mole. You ignore one, 2 more pop up. This is especially bad on the raids. And on two occasions, it was the leader themselves as a source of it.

 

And I find it a bit illuminating that the some of the HC community seems more concerned with things like AE farming, than things like these being widely and openly discussed. Because Priorities?

 

2b - The behavior

-As an example, just last week I was on a Manticore TF. One person sped ahead as fast as they possibly could, running through spawns in an effort to complete missions as fast as possible, even finding the elevator before the entire team was on the map. I spoke out, as did two other people. To which I was told to go fornicate myself. So, I left. Immediately after I left, another person (NOT the speed runner) began to lecture me on how "I had no right" to abandon my group like that, which turned into a 20-minute tirade of me being "selfish" because of not wanting to indulge in the speedster's behavior, and how my leaving caused the two others to also leave.

 

I strongly dislike speed-running things. Unless I am with a group of friends, I pretty much clear every group of enemies. Because its money, drops, kind of the point of the TF in the first place, and whatnot. I dislike this gameplay so much that I have left other games because of it, namely ESO. Where "speeding" content is so bad that people are utterly unwilling to Tank it, which in turn leads to a shortage of tanks for high end content, where you can't just skip or bull rush things. The tank cues are so bad, its 4 hours or longer. When to me, it's a problem of their own creation. 

 

I have done TFs that I still don't know the story of. Even after almost 5 years of playing the game, I still don't know who the guy is on the Dam. I don't know the whole "its a nemesis plot!" thing. Many, many stories I have done several times, I have YET to get the context of. And at this point, I don't expect to get it.

 

2c - The unsolicited opinions and EPEEN

- "Oh, you took THAT power? THAT pool? What a scrub!" etc. "My pixels are so much better than YOUR pixels! Now bare witness to my GLORY! Watch, in AWE of my might! I beat that Elite boss .023 seconds faster than you did! Get with the META, scrub! Cold Domination or get out!" etc etc.

And yes, in some cases, it truly is that bad. Theme builds, are a thing. Builds "just for fun" are a thing. Taking powers you simply like, are a thing. Not everyone chases the META. Not everyone even CARES about the META. And I don't remember asking for the opinion of random pug player #0248592 for all the mathematical reasons of why I should not take powers like Enflame.

 

So, to address the Elephant in the room, let's NOT pretend that Pugging is a land of Milk and Honey, of Unicorns and Rainbows, where everything is GREAT and everyone gets along. To many of us, it is quite Toxic. Not everyone is toxic mind you, but "enough" of it is that if I was given no option to PUG or uninstall, I would immediately uninstall, because my dislike of the PUG community outweighs my like for the game. I would simply rather play alone, or with my friends. Both in AE and in open world content. And the more the narrative of "PUG TEAMING" is pushed/baited/bribed on me, the more I resent it. And if I want "story", I will just run Ouros, again, either alone or with friends.

 

Perhaps, just perhaps mind you, if people stopped focusing on what OTHER people are doing and focus on themselves and their own fun and enjoyment, things might calm down. But I wouldn't bet on that.

 

Lastly, new players, being confused even at maximum level, is HARDLY unique to CoH. It exists in nearly every game, even games without "rushing" or "power leveling." It's normal. To be expected. And if someone wants to rush-rush-rush to level 50, and THEN do content, then it is their prerogative to do so. And you can't FORCE them otherwise.

 

You can't "force" people to play with you, YOUR way. And the more you try to MAKE them, the more they will resent it. if you want more people to play YOUR way, the way YOU do, then give them options, and let them CHOOSE to do so.

 

Rant over.

[Lunar Ronin]

52 minutes ago, Neiska said:

And now for my rebuttal, and I think I am going to remove my filter for this one.

 

2a - The chat/commentary

- I have been playing since 2019. I have done a total of five, FIVE mothership raids, and ONE Hami raid, all of them in the last two weeks. And I doubt I will do so again. Because every single time without fail, the chat has turned into the worst of various reddit threads, many of which I can't even repeat here. Here are a few examples -

 

-NSFW Furry commentary.

-Controversial topics such as BLM, "my body my choice", etc.

-How some people of a particular political opinion should be arrested.

-How terrible incels are, and why they are to blame for every ill in society.

-How great communism is, and how bad capitalism is.

-LGBTQ dating, most of which I cannot repeat here.

-The current situation in Gaza, and how X side is wrong.

-Religion.

-Subscribe to my (adult content)

- The adult orientation of X fictional character.

etc etc.

 

Now, I don't care what people's opinions are on any of these topics. I don't care what your intimate orientation is. I don't care who you support politically. I don't care who or what you worship or consider sacred. That is none of my concern, nor my business. If anyone is interested in any of these things, there are reputable platforms to discuss such things. CoH is a lot of things, but a pillar of fair intellectual debate, the general or team channel is not. And I don't care to see any of it.

 

Normally, I would just ignore and press on. But it is so wild, common, and rampant that ignoring people 1 by 1 isn't any help. Its whack-a-mole. You ignore one, 2 more pop up. This is especially bad on the raids. And on two occasions, it was the leader themselves as a source of it.

 

And I find it a bit illuminating that the some of the HC community seems more concerned with things like AE farming, than things like these being widely and openly discussed. Because Priorities?

 

How I can tell you play on Everlasting without you saying that you play on Everlasting.   Yeah, those are things that go on on Everlasting raids.  I've heard... stories over the years, including just recently.  I'd suggest trying the smaller shards if you want to do those, they tend to be more friendly.  If not, I don't blame you, but just FWIW: Not all shards are like that.

 

 

56 minutes ago, Neiska said:

And now for my rebuttal, and I think I am going to remove my filter for this one.

 

2b - The behavior

-As an example, just last week I was on a Manticore TF. One person sped ahead as fast as they possibly could, running through spawns in an effort to complete missions as fast as possible, even finding the elevator before the entire team was on the map. I spoke out, as did two other people. To which I was told to go fornicate myself. So, I left. Immediately after I left, another person (NOT the speed runner) began to lecture me on how "I had no right" to abandon my group like that, which turned into a 20-minute tirade of me being "selfish" because of not wanting to indulge in the speedster's behavior, and how my leaving caused the two others to also leave.

 

I strongly dislike speed-running things. Unless I am with a group of friends, I pretty much clear every group of enemies. Because its money, drops, kind of the point of the TF in the first place, and whatnot. I dislike this gameplay so much that I have left other games because of it, namely ESO. Where "speeding" content is so bad that people are utterly unwilling to Tank it, which in turn leads to a shortage of tanks for high end content, where you can't just skip or bull rush things. The tank cues are so bad, its 4 hours or longer. When to me, it's a problem of their own creation. 

 

I have done TFs that I still don't know the story of. Even after almost 5 years of playing the game, I still don't know who the guy is on the Dam. I don't know the whole "its a nemesis plot!" thing. Many, many stories I have done several times, I have YET to get the context of. And at this point, I don't expect to get it.

 

 

[battlewraith]

Lol maybe I'm on the wrong server. All they seem to talk about on excelsior lately is some Boss Baby movie and references to pandas.