"No Transformation" option for HEATs

[Vic Raiden]

Exactly what it says on the tin. Peacebringers and Warshades both have their Nova and Dwarf forms, which turn them into alien creatures focused on ranged and melee attacks, respectively.

 

So I looked through powerset customization when pondering whether to make a PB, and noticed all off the attacks exclusive to the Nova and Dwarf transformations have properly functioning animations for a human character model using them, and thus my wish to make it actually possible to use them without necessarily having to take the form of a hovering squid or mutated gorilla first.

[Voltor]

There are builds out there for human-only Peacebringers and Warshades.  You don't have to take the transformation powers if you don't want them

[tidge]

Not a fan of this suggestion, for reasons:

 

0) The schtick of HEATs are the transformations

 

1) A human-looking character with only access to the form powers would be a character that seems weirdly ineffective, certainly in terms of DPS.

 

2) The HEATS need a revisit, possibly on multiple fronts, long before something like this request would make sense to spend time on. We've got some ideas being kicked around in the HEAT subforum.

[Shin Magmus]

5 hours ago, Voltor said:

There are builds out there for human-only Peacebringers and Warshades.  You don't have to take the transformation powers if you don't want them

     That's true: you don't have to take them.   Unfortunately, you do have to take them if you want to not suck though.  Human-only HEAT DPS is worse than pre-buff Sentinels and it's one of the biggest criticisms of the AT, as well as one of the things that needs adjustment the most in an eventual Kheld rework.

 

     Even more than that though, shapeshift powers unlock access to the "Changeling" techniques and fire procs like Performance Shifter and Power Transfer every time you cast them.  The combination of the animation-cancelling and the way that those IOs work means that a Tri-Form Changeling PB has 800+ DPS and better sustain, while a human-only PB sits at 1/10th that value with 80 DPS: and they even have to click heal powers more often which makes them feel weaker and play even slower. 

[Laucianna]

I do fully understand the desire to not have to take the form of the dwarf and nova as a lot of people dedicate a lot of time into the costume ❤️ I would personally prefer a "Minimal FX" option when it comes to the forms where you still have a bit of detail of the form but it doesn't overwrite your costume (Tentacles out the back for nova, Dwarf ethereal power gloves)

[Voltor]

2 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

     That's true: you don't have to take them.   Unfortunately, you do have to take them if you want to not suck though.  Human-only HEAT DPS is worse than pre-buff Sentinels and it's one of the biggest criticisms of the AT, as well as one of the things that needs adjustment the most in an eventual Kheld rework.

 

     Even more than that though, shapeshift powers unlock access to the "Changeling" techniques and fire procs like Performance Shifter and Power Transfer every time you cast them.  The combination of the animation-cancelling and the way that those IOs work means that a Tri-Form Changeling PB has 800+ DPS and better sustain, while a human-only PB sits at 1/10th that value with 80 DPS: and they even have to click heal powers more often which makes them feel weaker and play even slower. 

 

My human-only perma lightform PB is doing just fine with all the badges.   Also not a huge fan of the changeling method, but mileage varies.

[Shin Magmus]

4 hours ago, Voltor said:

 

My human-only perma lightform PB is doing just fine with all the badges.   Also not a huge fan of the changeling method, but mileage varies.

"Feels fine to me" is not a substantive argument, and does nothing to add to the conversation.  OP specifically wants Shapeshifting powers to have a human animation to cater to players like you, who want to play human-only.  This is done purely to give players more options and as a benefit, because human-only is that weak, and downright objectively the weakest AT in the game.

[Rudra]

8 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

4 hours ago, Voltor said:

 

My human-only perma lightform PB is doing just fine with all the badges.   Also not a huge fan of the changeling method, but mileage varies.

"Feels fine to me" is not a substantive argument, and does nothing to add to the conversation.  OP specifically wants Shapeshifting powers to have a human animation to cater to players like you, who want to play human-only.  This is done purely to give players more options and as a benefit, because human-only is that weak, and downright objectively the weakest AT in the game.

Do you have hard data that can be verified and validated for human form only Kheldians being 1/10th as strong?

[Jacke]

9 hours ago, tidge said:

The schtick of HEATs are the transformations

 

I agree.  Without transformations, HEATs wouldn't be so hot.  😺

 

There's also several experienced HEAT Players who are Testers on the Gold Standard Discord to provide thorough testing and feedback on HEAT proposed changes whenever they come up.

[biostem]

I'd just be happy with some *options* besides looking like every other Nova or Dwarf - even if it only extended to tinting said squid/lobster forms, (and I don't just mean the vague aura coloration)...

[UltraAlt]

15 hours ago, Vic Raiden said:

and thus my wish to make it actually possible to use them without necessarily having to take the form of a hovering squid or mutated gorilla first.

 

Are you okay with the two form change powers having "no form change" power customization options?

 

Myself, I think that would only lead to trouble and support tickets, but as long as it is just a power customization option, I'm neither for or against it.

[Seed22]

15 hours ago, Vic Raiden said:

mutated gorilla first.

I take offense to this. It’s CALLED a space lobster thank you very much 😤

[Vic Raiden]

6 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 

Are you okay with the two form change powers having "no form change" power customization options?

 

Myself, I think that would only lead to trouble and support tickets, but as long as it is just a power customization option, I'm neither for or against it.

Yes, my suggestion was purely cosmetic. I saw that the human form has animations for all the Nova and Dwarf attacks, so I thought, why not?

[Shin Magmus]

10 hours ago, Rudra said:

Do you have hard data that can be verified and validated for human form only Kheldians being 1/10th as strong?

Lauciana, the vet level 1,200 PB, actually had great data to this effect.  She was making an awesome thread about it, but deleted it because of some people.

[Jacktar]

5 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

Lauciana, the vet level 1,200 PB, actually had great data to this effect.  She was making an awesome thread about it, but deleted it because of some people.

After all the years playing ingame alongside our fantastic community I find reading the last sentance just so sad! 😢😢

[Shin Magmus]

     Believe it or not, the overwhelming weakness of the baseline numbers of nearly all attacks available to PB and WS (remember, this means mostly human form powers because of basic math) is why they need a rework.  People who care about the ATs and who care about the game are trying to get a good rework so that those human form powers aren't "worse than a pre-buff Sentinel" tier bad: because every AT should be decent.  Optimized changeling gameplay is a band-aid that rapid fires so many weak powers in quick succession that they add up to being good DPS: but it's literally impossible without taking the shapeshift forms.  This creates a clear line where the ATs require 2 specific power picks to be, for example "worth bringing on a 4* Advanced Mode team at all" - multiple sources including the best WS player.

 

     People who do NOT care about the ATs and who do NOT care about the game are just responding with downvotes and "feels fine to me".

[biostem]

23 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

it's literally impossible without taking the shapeshift forms

Except that those are kind of the entire AT's schtick - to shapeshift, and *all* it costs you are 2 power picks.  It's kind of like playing a petless MM - you are certainly free to play that way, and some people can even thrive despite those limitations, but in the end, it is a self-imposed limitation.  You may not like the design decisions behind the AT, but the type of changes you are suggesting would only serve to make the HEATs just another bland baseline character...

Edited June 15 by biostem

[Ghost]

30 minutes ago, biostem said:

You may not like the design decisions behind the AT, but the type of changes you are suggesting would only serve to make the HEATs just another bland baseline character...

I feel like there are a certain group of players who want this.

Shield defense without shields.

Stone armor without the stone.

Stealth without the “fade”.

Ice Armor without the ice.

Fire armor without the fire.

Now, HEATS that don’t shapeshift.

 

Bland is what they want.  
Every toon running around with no identifiable powers and no weaknesses.

 

 

 

[Seed22]

34 minutes ago, Ghost said:

I feel like there are a certain group of players who want this.

Shield defense without shields.

Stone armor without the stone.

Stealth without the “fade”.

Ice Armor without the ice.

Fire armor without the fire.

Now, HEATS that don’t shapeshift.

 

Bland is what they want.  
Every toon running around with no identifiable powers and no weaknesses.

 

 

 

I’m going to be nice and just ask, since these comments don’t exist, where are you getting this assessment from? Especially in this thread?

[Ghost]

7 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

I’m going to be nice and just ask, since these comments don’t exist, where are you getting this assessment from? Especially in this thread?

Other suggestions I’ve seen on this forum - not within this thread.

I can find them for you if you like.

[Ghost]

Lol

Here’s one that just started

 

 

[Seed22]

1 hour ago, Shin Magmus said:

     Believe it or not, the overwhelming weakness of the baseline numbers of nearly all attacks available to PB and WS (remember, this means mostly human form powers because of basic math) is why they need a rework.  People who care about the ATs and who care about the game are trying to get a good rework so that those human form powers aren't "worse than a pre-buff Sentinel" tier bad: because every AT should be decent.  Optimized changeling gameplay is a band-aid that rapid fires so many weak powers in quick succession that they add up to being good DPS: but it's literally impossible without taking the shapeshift forms.  This creates a clear line where the ATs require 2 specific power picks to be, for example "worth bringing on a 4* Advanced Mode team at all" - multiple sources including the best WS player.

 

     People who do NOT care about the ATs and who do NOT care about the game are just responding with downvotes and "feels fine to me".

There’s a dichotomy within the CoH community. The discord, home of numbers, logic, and imo the best players in CoH or “experts” on a certain AT or playstyle, in this case Lauci, Wispur, and Doom who are the only kheld players I trust in the game. 
 

 

And the forums. More of a wild west of post, lots of ad hominem attacks, and uh…sometimes random cat or pizza post.

 

*The forums ate my last well thought out post so this is what you get
 

 

[Seed22]

1 minute ago, Ghost said:

Lol

Here’s one that just started

 

 

So because they want a cosmetic option that has no effect on gameplay you’re malding? 
 

Say sike right now please

[Ghost]

3 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

So because they want a cosmetic option that has no effect on gameplay you’re malding? 
 

Say sike right now please

A cosmetic option that takes away the “cost” of picking the power.  Okay.  Sure.  Sounds great.

 

 

 

 

[Indystruck]

13 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

"Feels fine to me" is not a substantive argument, and does nothing to add to the conversation.  OP specifically wants Shapeshifting powers to have a human animation to cater to players like you, who want to play human-only.  This is done purely to give players more options and as a benefit, because human-only is that weak, and downright objectively the weakest AT in the game.

 

It's alright, man. No amount of testing will ever convince "I don't believe you. I got carried on a +0/x4 Warriors map and it feels fine to me" types. Best to just not worry about those people.

Edited June 15 by Indystruck