"No Transformation" option for HEATs

[kelika2]

14 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

You say "nova tier" like that's a lot.

It is.

It really is.

Scroll down to Damage Scale by AT

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Damage

 

I know Nova/Kheld the AT are the same character, but they have vastly different damage mods/scales/base/whatever

And because of this uniqueness a lot of people think dark nova scatter(cone) and human form scatter(cone) are the same thing, but they are not

[kelika2]

17 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

That's who first came to mind when I read the OP.

 

My second thought was some form of minimal visual tell - the Dwarf fists as gloves and the Nova tentacle-shoulders as pauldrons - along with the tendril outline and tell-tale flame eyes that come with using PB/WS powers.

 

I also like ScarySai's suggestion about Jojo; presumably with the form floating behind and slightly higher than the character model, with both the human and kheldian models performing animations during attacks.

that sounds nice but there will be monthly threads for people who want to get rid of the exoskeleton or the tail

[Paradox Fate]

3 hours ago, ScarySai said:

Listen, if this is what it takes for human only khelds to stop gimping their characters, I'm for it.

 

It's like playing a druid that doesn't shapeshift, but for some reason caught on.

 

 

Though there is a glyph (a consumable which changes certain effects) which keeps your human form while you shapeshift, albeit being 'astrally enhanced'.

[Doomrider]

6 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

It is.

It really is.

Scroll down to Damage Scale by AT

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Damage

 

I know Nova/Kheld the AT are the same character, but they have vastly different damage mods/scales/base/whatever

And because of this uniqueness a lot of people think dark nova scatter(cone) and human form scatter(cone) are the same thing, but they are not

Unfortunately the damage scalar doesn't mean a whole lot when the base recharge on the Nova Single Target attacks are so low. 
The damage formula takes into account a power's base recharge when determining base dmg. Lower base the base recharge, the lower the base dmg.
For instance, the base dmg on Dark Nova Blast before Nova's 45% dmg bonus is applied is only 66.73. The next best ST attack is Nova Eye at 77.41.

Early game this feels really strong as you get a lot of powers when you pick up Nova at L4 and the 45% dmg bonus gives you a sizeable offensive advantage over other non-heat characters at that level. By mid game that advantage quickly starts to disappear as other damage AT's start to bring the rest of their kits online.

I've ran the numbers using optimal chains for both Human Only WS and Triform WS (non-changeling) and these were the raw dps results. These do include damage procs but no sources of -res, assault hybrid, interface etc. So you can imagine the damage would be a fair amount lower without procs.

Human WS running Gravity Well - Shadow Blast - Essence Drain - Shadow Blast
168 dps solo (no buffs) - 268 dps at dmg cap 

Triform (Non-Changeling) running Gravity Well - Nova Eye - Dwarf Drain - Nova eye
197 dps solo (no buffs) - 303 dps at dmg cap

There are surprisingly close in Single Target damage output and these are utilizing only the highest DPA attacks available to the AT within these framework.

Now if you were wondering how these compare to a non-heat AT...
We can compare these with a Fire Blast defender running Dominate - Blaze - B.Bolt - Fire Blast - Blaze - Fire Blast
207 dps solo (no buffs) - 329 dps at dmg cap

Another fun fact; Dark Detonation and Dark Nova Detonation have almost the same dpa due to the difference in animation time. Another point against Nova actually providing a tangible offensive advantage.

ALL THAT ASIDE... because it doesn't have much to with the OP. If the two play styles (Human Only vs Triform <non changeling>) are this close in sustained DPS, I really don't see a problem with providing a non-transformation cosmetic option for those who desire that. Plus, it really doesn't infringe on anyone elses enjoyment since it would be cosmetic only.
Some people might not like such an option existing just based on principal, but we don't make these decisions anyway. If a dev wants to implement it, so be it. 
 

[ScarySai]

32 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

It is.

It really is.

Scroll down to Damage Scale by AT

 

See, somehow I had a feeling you'd say this, but it ignores reality too much for my liking. Damage scale doesn't matter much if the things it modifies aren't great.

 

Otherwise, khelds in nova would actually be on par with blasters. 

 

Be nice if the GMs actually dealt with people derailing a cosmetic thread with misinformation about a completely unrelated aspect of the archetype.

 

Edited June 15 by ScarySai

[Indystruck]

Scalers only mean that if any other class was unfortunate enough to get Bright Nova Blast that theirs would be worse.

 

When no one else has access to the same powers the scalars of the class modifying the power are basically entirely irrelevant.

 

[ScarySai]

31 minutes ago, Paradox Fate said:

 

Though there is a glyph (a consumable which changes certain effects) which keeps your human form while you shapeshift, albeit being 'astrally enhanced'.

 

At least there you're actually going into boomkin form and not just flying naked, eh?

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

EDIT: Oh hey @PeregrineFalcon I disagree with the devs on something. Them leaving the changeling glitch in the game for this long amounts to malpractice. Thought you ought to witness this.

You're criticizing the devs for leaving that glitch in the game for this long, not disagreeing with them. And no it's not malpractice.

 

Nice try, but it's far too early on a nice sunny Saturday morning for me to get into it with you. Try again on Monday.

[kelika2]

20 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

 

 

Be nice if the GMs actually dealt with people derailing a cosmetic thread with misinformation about a completely unrelated aspect of the archetype.

because cosmetics are a cover

they want POWER and cosmetics

mostly the power

because if that is not true why not just stay human or roll a sentinel if they want ranged+armors?

 

22 minutes ago, Doomrider said:

Unfortunately the damage scalar doesn't mean a whole lot when the base recharge on the Nova Single Target attacks are so low. 
The damage formula takes into account a power's base recharge when determining base dmg. Lower base the base recharge, the lower the base dmg.
For instance, the base dmg on Dark Nova Blast before Nova's 45% dmg bonus is applied is only 66.73. The next best ST attack is Nova Eye at 77.41.

In 20 or so years this the first time I am hearing of this.

and i dont know what to do with it because nova blast and nova eye endlessly cycled with enough recharge is more damage than watching a human kheld animate incan strike

[Player2]

9 hours ago, biostem said:

You may not like the design decisions behind the AT, but the type of changes you are suggesting would only serve to make the HEATs just another bland baseline character...

 

9 hours ago, Ghost said:

I feel like there are a certain group of players who want this.

Shield defense without shields.

Stone armor without the stone.

Stealth without the “fade”.

Ice Armor without the ice.

Fire armor without the fire.

Now, HEATS that don’t shapeshift.

 

Bland is what they want.  
Every toon running around with no identifiable powers and no weaknesses.

 

 

Shield defense with invisible or tiny shields that essentially amount to a large bracer, not no shields.  The shield animations would still be there, and it would look like you are using the shield arm to block... because maybe someone is just taking advantage of the asymmetrical costume pieces to just armor up their shield arm to say that's their shield, or maybe they want to play it like they're somewhat invulnerable but use a blocking animation instead of standing there all invulnerable like some kind of Superman.  That's different interpretations, not bland.

 

The different kinds of stone shooting out of a stone armor user's body can look pretty intrusive, and there are a lot of costume options that look stony on their own.  Why can't we be stony without having jagged pieces of rock or crystal jutting out of us and obscuring our costumes?  Why is that bland?

 

Stealth without fade.  Hey, here's a fun experiment.  Go set up a camera and then sneak around all stealthy like.  Do you fade?  No?  Because not everyone who is being stealthy is turning partially or fully invisible.  Just ask Batman.

 

Ice Armor without the ice... maybe we want Cold Armor, not Ice Armor.  Fire Armor?  Same thing but heat... because I want to be hot without being on fire.

 

HEATs that don't shapeshift?  Yes please, because I've played one PB with the shapeshifting and hated it, and played a PB and WS without shapeshifting and love it.  Get over it.  Some people want to do things different rather than play cookie cutter builds, and other people just do not like the shape shifted forms.  It doesn't have to be "give us those powers without the shapeshift power" so much as make the shapeshift powers more about altered power modes with the option to shapeshift or not, because I scoff at the squid and space gorilla forms and will not use them.

 

8 hours ago, Seed22 said:

I’m going to be nice and just ask, since these comments don’t exist, where are you getting this assessment from? Especially in this thread?

Elsewhere, for sure.  But I'm sure you've seen the post quoted below.

 

3 hours ago, JasperStone said:

Sure.

I remember those discussions.

Like:

or

or maybe

... no sure of invisible jetpack counts

...oh this is another shield one 

 

Hey, you quoted one of mine!  Thanks for noticing.   😎

 

 

[Greycat]

35 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

<image>

 

Ewww. Chick tract image. *has flashbacks*

 

(They have a fairly distinct art style and are ... rather vile.)

 

 

That aside... well, aside. There's one primary reason I'd point to against this - the lore, which is frankly important to me. The Khelds aren't just generic "shapeshifters." They make copies of prior hosts and revert to those forms wholesale. (That aside from potential technical reasons about if it's even possible or not.) It's how they work. Drop that and you might as well drop the forms entirely and go to nice, boring buttons like staff uses for its "forms."

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, Player2 said:

The different kinds of stone shooting out of a stone armor user's body can look pretty intrusive, and there are a lot of costume options that look stony on their own.  Why can't we be stony without having jagged pieces of rock or crystal jutting out of us and obscuring our costumes? 

You can already do this by making an Invulnerability character or a Willpower character or pick a subtle armor set character and using the stone skin textures. Problem solved.

 

4 minutes ago, Player2 said:

Stealth without fade.  Hey, here's a fun experiment.  Go set up a camera and then sneak around all stealthy like.  Do you fade?  No?  Because not everyone who is being stealthy is turning partially or fully invisible.  Just ask Batman.

Here's another fun experiment. Try sneaking around when you are trying to show off your costume to everyone. It doesn't work. The people you don't want seeing you see you because you are out there showing off your costume. The fade is replicate our characters trying not to be seen even when they sneak down a nice wide, empty passage full of enemies that by all rights should have no problems seeing us for not being invisible.

 

6 minutes ago, Player2 said:

Ice Armor without the ice... maybe we want Cold Armor, not Ice Armor.  Fire Armor?  Same thing but heat... because I want to be hot without being on fire.

You can achieve this by going with a more subtle armor set that mechanically does what you think your character should be doing and using the appropriate aura for the effect you want.

[Paradox Fate]

I consider the toggle suppression a big downside on the forms in general, as well as the high amount of inputs needed to even perform decent on Warshades. 

Hence I got a human only PB and I am strongly considering, when pushing for a WS build, that I might go with Human/Nova only one to save me the strain on the hands.

 

(It's also somewhat hilarious to see stretch instructions for your wrists and fingers at the #warshade channel on discord, ironically or not.)

 

 

 

Edited June 15 by Paradox Fate

[kelika2]

9 hours ago, Ghost said:

Ice Armor without the ice.

I would settle for Cold Doms frosty alts

[Doomrider]

27 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

In 20 or so years this the first time I am hearing of this.

and i dont know what to do with it because nova blast and nova eye endlessly cycled with enough recharge is more damage than watching a human kheld animate incan strike

It's a bit shocking I know. You're at least correct about Incan Strike in that it loses a ton of dps due to that long animation.
But if we look at Nova Eye - Nova Blast - repeat chain you'll get the following:

97.06 dps solo // 161.8 dps at dmg cap. This is WITHOUT procs.
solo
Nova Eye 77.41*(1.45+.95) = 185.8 damage / 1.716 animation time = 108.3 dpa
Nova Blast 66.73*(1.45+.95) = 160.2 damage / 1.848 animation time = 86.66 dpa

at cap
Nova Eye 77.41*(4) = 309.64 damage / 1.716 animation time = 180.44 dpa
Nova Blast 66.73*(4) = 266.92 damage / 1.848 animation time = 144.44 dpa


if you add in available procs, and with enough recharge... 
160.5 dps solo // 225.2 dps at dmg cap.

Still falling behind optimal human only and behind triform using all the tools available to it, sans changeling.

[kelika2]

Just now, Doomrider said:

It's a bit shocking I know. You're at least correct about Incan Strike in that it loses a ton of dps due to that long animation.
But if we look at Nova Eye - Nova Blast - repeat chain you'll get the following:

97.06 dps solo // 161.8 dps at dmg cap. This is WITHOUT procs.
solo
Nova Eye 77.41*(1.45+.95) = 185.8 damage / 1.716 animation time = 108.3 dpa
Nova Blast 66.73*(1.45+.95) = 160.2 damage / 1.848 animation time = 86.66 dpa

at cap
Nova Eye 77.41*(4) = 309.64 damage / 1.716 animation time = 180.44 dpa
Nova Blast 66.73*(4) = 266.92 damage / 1.848 animation time = 144.44 dpa


if you add in available procs, and with enough recharge... 
160.5 dps solo // 225.2 dps at dmg cap.

Still falling behind optimal human only and behind triform using all the tools available to it, sans changeling.

In.. target dummy theory this is amazing and mind blowing.

but in practice when you barely have enough time to hit a boss 3 times with single target attacks most of the time this does not change much

 

We have this thread at least once a month because nova form just hits harder, plain as that without math or deep mechanics.  people want that extra power without giving up their outfit

 

people dont suggest other alternate looks for forms

people dont suggest buffing human damage

people just fucking suggest a nochange option every fucking month

 

actually now that i think about it retooling human damage and target caps might be a healthy alternative.  no one is raving about sentinels but people play them now.  having armor and ranged attacks didnt end the world or cause the world to be taken over by sentinel supergroups. 

but then again we do have regular threads about people wanting sentinel aoes to target 10(cone)/16(taoe/nuke) targets so buffing khelds now would only lead to people complaining about that later so screw it

screw all of it

[Videra]

1 minute ago, kelika2 said:

Snip

 

What you're failing to understand here is that a properly built, mid-tier scrapper currently rests at anywhere from 700-800 DPS. Ditto for other DPS classes that keep up, and plenty of options break four digits.

Kheldians are in a really, really bad state at the moment, Doomrider's math shows why.

[kelika2]

Just now, Videra said:

What you're failing to understand here is that a properly built, mid-tier scrapper currently rests at anywhere from 700-800 DPS. Ditto for other DPS classes that keep up, and plenty of options break four digits.

Kheldians are in a really, really bad state at the moment, Doomrider's math shows why.

and if this was city of target dummies/plain jane dps checks with enrage timers i would be scared and worried to.

but this games play goes by super fast, bosses and elites die quick and avs get lore petted on and what raids we have generally come with an alternating/planned cycle of dropping lore pets

[Videra]

Just now, kelika2 said:

and if this was city of target dummies/plain jane dps checks with enrage timers i would be scared and worried to.

but this games play goes by super fast, bosses and elites die quick and avs get lore petted on and what raids we have generally come with an alternating/planned cycle of dropping lore pets

 

? ? ?

I have genuinely no idea what you're trying to say, here. How does other sets and ATs - alongside incarnates existing - being better, mean that the current state of kheldians is okay?

More-over, why are you trying to use this incredibly perplexing non-argument to shoot down a cosmetic change? Give Khelds min-fx forms while buffing their numbers, shrimple as. They don't actually need a full rework, contrary to popular belief, they simply need the ability to perform similarly to how they do now with Changeling.

[kelika2]

2 minutes ago, Videra said:

 

? ? ?

I have genuinely no idea what you're trying to say, here.

City of Heroes isnt a "dps" game, there are so few things in this game that have a dps check requirement and even then, due to how.. "industrialized" the server/project has become with the easy access of incarnate things it makes personal dps even more moot.

 

Even in warcraft there were people who just sat around all day whacking a target dummy as well as their own genitals because of how high dps they can get through a very specific way of doing it generally do not perform as well in practice because of factoring in of being out of range, or phase change, or invul period or even the targets armor and resistances.

 

here we blow up billions of minions a day and move of all we keep moving around most of the time.  this is why i disregard pylon or theorycrafters most of the time because those are just.. not the core of city of heroes

[Rudra]

Okay, this is a derailment and I apologize for it, but can someone please explain what you mean by changeling? I thought it was just another way of saying tri-form, but this discussion shows it obviously is not.

[tidge]

38 minutes ago, Videra said:

Kheldians are in a really, really bad state at the moment, Doomrider's math shows why.

 

Yes. My Warshade took significantly longer to solo the Penny Yin TF at +0x1 than one of my Controllers. This was a very unpleasant experiment, after doing the exact same content with Stalker, Scapper, and Tanker.

[ScarySai]

I have no idea why people who don't play khelds feel the need to derail a thread that doesn't affect them.

 

This happens every time, it's getting old. I'm just going to start reporting people who do it.

 

Any replies that don't have any direct relation with the OP, or the thread title should be ignored.

Edited June 15 by ScarySai

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

I have no idea why people who don't play khelds feel the need to derail a thread that doesn't affect them.

 

This happens every time, it's getting old. I'm just going to start reporting people who do it.

Or maybe you can explain it so the rest of us can follow along?

[kelika2]

3 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

I have no idea why people who don't play khelds feel the need to derail a thread that doesn't affect them.

 

This happens every time, it's getting old. I'm just going to start reporting people who do it.

Start suggesting buffs to human form instead