Copyright Question

[moonligh7er]

TLDR;  I can DM a GM costume screens and details; I have a question about if it would be taken down for trademark concerns.

So if I made a character and/or story that includes characters/groups that are similar to copyright characters/groups insofar as for example Homelander is similar to Superman (or the Honorees are to zombie Superman) or... many Marvel and DC characters are to their corresponding archetypal characters in the other universe (eg Green Arrow and Hawkeye, Flash and Quicksilver, Atom and Ant-Man... and then ofc every Watchmen character is a rip-off although generally imo more interesting and relevant, which I would call transformative--but not the point and I'll digress on that point).

Sometimes the overlap is due to universal, even Jungian archetypes, sometimes it's due to the pragmatic use of deeply-engrained cultural icons especially with transformative use and all it's added value (eg the sort of reality check that Homelander introduces borrowing the icon that is Superman the same as the game and everyone as far as I know borrows laser eyes from Superman, although the Comet had them as early as '39 where Superman debuted the power in 60-something despite it's first issue being published before the Comet), sometimes both writers are making new characters based on the same older idea (eg Robin Hood) that neither of them came up with, and although I like to think there's the least incidence of this, sometimes due to lack of originality.

Marvel's Asgards, for that matter Stargate's Asgards and all it's alien species, and the Predator franchise all draw from the Annunaki sort of trope about ancient gods really being advanced alien species. Predator just adds another trope about alien species that hunt the galaxy, which the Hirogen from Star Trek are basically... uh, are, basically. This is the general realm that I'm in.

DC and Marvel aren't suing eachother so far as I know, so if it's safe insofar as copyright law, is it probably safe in game?

Likenesses may be similar but with some significant changes
Powers, weapons may be similar
Names may take one single part of the name, be the name backward, or be an anagram of the name or part of it (eg Nimlael=I Am Enlil, Thomas Marvelo Riddle=I am Lord Voldemort)
Characters relationships, storyline may be similar but with changes and original content
No direct references are made eg franchise names, species, factions, character names, etc. Edit: I just realized that I was using, "Space Marines," and just now found out that that's trademarked by the folks who made Warhammer? Which poses an interesting question: (I don't mind changing the name, buttt) That's safe, right? Because the TM only protects the term in the context of the Warhammer universe (it's too generic a term to be generally enforceable, especially since we'll have space marines soon enough... that's not a political reference in the slightest).

It's not as much of a copyright concern as General Hammond or the Oranbega portals. Further than that, if round gates that produce wormholes are considered to fall under the umbrella of the Stargate copyright, then yes I'm screwed. But that's not the case, I'm still uncertain lol.

I know we're avoiding too much guidance and loopholes, but what do we think? I don't wanna call out the specific franchise/s that could from one perspective be said to bear a striking resemblance to my works, for obvious reasons, but I can DM a GM costume screens and details. Appreciate anyone who read that lol

Edited July 1 by moonligh7er
Clarity

[uninventive]

Just so you know, GM's aren't going to answer any of this on the forums past a generalized reply of "we don't tell you specifics".

You can try submitting a Support Ticket with those screens and details.

 

[Techwright]

2 hours ago, moonligh7er said:

DC and Marvel aren't suing eachother so far as I know,

 

Um...yeah...you may want to dig a bit deeper.  Start with the whole "Captain Marvel" thing.

In short: the two (and others) have a long history of pilfering each other's work and using the legal system to work it out.

 

You've got a lot written and I'm trying to process it all, but basically, when creating a similar character to an established one, you want something that the viewer will say "I know what you're trying, and you're not blatantly ripping it off.  Very cool."   I've said it before, but my mistake as a newbie in the original game was to make the Green Hornet.  A nice player explained, and I changed it.  I don't recall what, but let's say I changed it to Black Bee, kept the costume but made it all black & dark grey, taking the white scarf GH often is seen with and swapping it with The Shadow's red scarf.  I make him a street brawling brute.  (GH is usually depicted as a boxer who eventually learns martial arts from Kato).  The name and costume clearly hint at the concept but make enough of a difference that it's not considered too close.  The "DNA" is obvious, but it is a derivative.   But if I were to keep the green hat and overcoat, keep the brawler, and call him "Mr. Reid" or "Britt the Hornet".  it is still the Green Hornet.

[NotsoevilDM]

From what I understand, straight rip-offs will get the banhammer.

 

Avoid using copyrighted names and obvious cosutme ripoffs and you should be okay even if your Hulk tribute is just Blue instead of Green and called the Blue Bulk. Damn, now I have to make an alt called the Blue Bulk.

Update: Unsurprisingly, the Blue Bulk was already taken on Torch. Created Cyanide Smasher (SS/Regen Brute) instead,

 

Claws / Regen scrapper in a yellow outfit called 'The W0lver1ne', yeah that's getting smacked down fast. 

 

Claws / Regen scrapper in a green outfit called 'The Strimmer', should be good even if the costume looks a bit like wolvie's. Damn, now I have to make a Claws / Regen scrapper called 'The Strimmer'.

Update: The Strimmer (Claws/Willpower Scrapper) was available. However, while I did make him short and squat like Wolvie, his outfit is different as is his backstory: Landscape Gardener who lost his famiy to DE when Woodvale became Eden. Claws are gardening equipment, regen(willpower) from the very plants he is fighting. I like my backstories to be tragic or funny, sometimes both.

 

Edited July 5 by NotsoevilDM
Update

[Scarlet Shocker]

These threads always make me sad.

 

We have so many different archetypes, power sets. and costume pieces it's incredibly easy to come up with an original character that won't infringe any copyright and stands alone by itself - regardless of the fact that some powers are similar to existing comic book characters.

 

There are plenty of legends out there that lend their powers to superhero tales as well. Robin Hood, Dick Turpin, Sinbad, Gilgamesh and Perseus could all easily be reinvented for Paragon City with very little work and there could be no infringement there.

 

I have never understood why people want to clone something borderline when they can make something unique, exciting and control their creation's back story.

 

 

[UltraAlt]

10 hours ago, moonligh7er said:

So if I made a character and/or story that includes characters/groups that are similar to copyright characters/groups insofar as for example Homelander is similar to Superman (or the Honorees are to zombie Superman) or... many Marvel and DC characters are to their corresponding archetypal characters in the other universe (eg Green Arrow and Hawkeye, Flash and Quicksilver, Atom and Ant-Man... and then ofc every Watchmen character is a rip-off although generally imo more interesting and relevant, which I would call transformative--but not the point and I'll digress on that point).

 

 

Push the boundaries at your own risk.

 

 

Edited July 1 by UltraAlt

[ZacKing]

1 hour ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

I have never understood why people want to clone something borderline when they can make something unique, exciting and control their creation's back story.

 

Because they love the characters they grew up with?  Why do people cosplay as Marvel/DC/Image/Disney/whatever trademarked character? 

 

As to the topic, you should send a PM to a GM with screenshots and include character name and bio.  It's HC's call to make, not anyone here.

Edited July 1 by ZacKing

[Bio-Link]

well if you have to ask, it is probebly  copyrighted.

[Scarlet Shocker]

7 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

 

Because they love the characters they grew up with?  Why do people cosplay as Marvel/DC/Image/Disney/whatever trademarked character? 

 

As to the topic, you should send a PM to a GM with screenshots and include character name and bio.  It's HC's call to make, not anyone here.

 

 

That's comparing apples and oranges

 

I love many characters I grew up with but I also love my own creations.

 

If I were to cosplay, it strikes me that making my own CoH characters would fall flat because they wouldn't be recognizable to a wider audience at a comic convention - but that isn't relevant to this thread.

 

My point was merely that we have all the tools we need to create amazing, original and interesting characters without coming close to doing naughties to trade marks or copyrights and yet still having something that works well within our game.

[ZacKing]

4 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

That's comparing apples and oranges

 

No, it isn't really.

 

4 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

I love many characters I grew up with but I also love my own creations.

 

That's great.  Not everyone thinks the same as you do though.

 

4 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

If I were to cosplay, it strikes me that making my own CoH characters would fall flat because they wouldn't be recognizable to a wider audience at a comic convention - but that isn't relevant to this thread.

 

Actually, it is relevant.  Many people want to make a character that is familiar to others.  Many people consider games like these a form of virtual cosplay.  There are also folks coming to this game that are used to being able to use skins of existing characters that are freely available in other games or that have no such copyright/trademark policy.  That's not making an excuse for anyone to break the rules here.  It's on the player to read the CoC before agreeing to play, so that's their fault for not reading the rules. 

 

9 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

My point was merely that we have all the tools we need to create amazing, original and interesting characters without coming close to doing naughties to trade marks or copyrights and yet still having something that works well within our game.

 

I certainly don't disagree.  I do understand why some would prefer to play as their favorite childhood hero though. 

[Ridiculous Girl]

i have had two character genericked, and i made a case for each, and they were both reinstated. the reasons they were genericked were because of possible offensiveness, the wandering uterus, and the other as a possible IP conflict. the first was overruled by the higher ups. it was not intentionally offensive especially because i was using a historical concept, not offensive at all really. the second, was the use of a known phrase that was used by an IP, but no copying was involved. so, i won. 🙂

 

BUT! but, this does not mean it will happen if you ask. they will look at the name, your biography, your costume, and if it is all too close, you'll get hit. accept it. they can reverse their decision, but it is not likely. if you have knowingly copied a character and it got genericked, then you did not get away with it and you were obviously, blatantly copying an IP. don't rub up against catastrophe and try to appeal or even worse, try to remake it again. move on and do something else. they are characters that we loved, but we need to just leave them and not try to recreate them in game. that is a losing position, it's their game and we are their guests.

[Erratic1]

Homelander does not "borrow" from Superman, he is a commentary on Superman and The Seven are an analog of The Justice League (originally founded by seven heroes).

Thor, Ant-Man, Wasp, Iron Man, and The Hulk are the original members of the Avengers--created by Marvel because they'd seen how popular The Justice League were and wanted a team. Not a single one of them is an analog of a DC character and to this day The Avengers remains a popular comic book team. So, you do not need to get arbitrarily close to established characters to make a point. That is to say, name, power similarity, and character details can be quite different and still tell stories about being heroes, their problems, their relation to society, etc.

 

Is there a reason to get so close you have to ask the question how close is acceptable?

[Skyhawke]

Well, if nothing else comes of this thread, I learned that "Strimmer" means String Trimmer. 

 

[Excraft]

54 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Is there a reason to get so close you have to ask the question how close is acceptable?

 

Considering there is no clear definition of what "close" is, there's no harm in asking.  HC are the ones who define what "close" is, so better to ask before getting the generic hammer.

[tidge]

To the OP (and anyone else who cares): My suggestions for "Imma gonna make my version of ____" are to either:

1. Go straight parody, not using trademarked elements (of anybody's IP, including existing parodies), or
2. Graft the powerset onto a completely different costume/body than the character you are trying to mimic.

...and maybe make a character bio that makes it obvious why your character isn't someone else's IP?

 

 

[srmalloy]

12 hours ago, Techwright said:

In short: the two (and others) have a long history of pilfering each other's work and using the legal system to work it out.

The Wikipedia page on the members of the Shi'ar Imperial Guard has a table listing each of the core members, along with a column listing the Legion of Super-Heroes member that they rip off imitate.

[Triumphant]

Here's my rule of thumb:  Don't be obvious.  If you have to jump through a several mental hoops to make the connection to a trademarked character, you're probably okay.  If you can glance at the character and instantly think, "Oh, yeah, that's obviously a copy of so-and-so character," then there's a strong chance the Devs are going to delete the offending character.

 

It is, of course, subjective.  The Devs ultimately make that call, and their opinion on the matter may be different than yours (or others).  Regardless, it's their domain and they are within their rights to make that judgement call, before it could potentially become a legal issue (and a pain in the rear for them and everyone else that enjoys playing here).

[Triumphant]

28 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

The Wikipedia page on the members of the Shi'ar Imperial Guard has a table listing each of the core members, along with a column listing the Legion of Super-Heroes member that they rip off imitate.

 

Yes, but they have completely different costumes/visual representations and different names and backgrounds.  The only thing really similar here, is (obviously) the powersets, but the power imitations alone are not going to trigger a copywrite battle, elsewise CoH is already on a sinking ship.  🤷‍♂️

[Erratic1]

2 hours ago, Excraft said:

 

Considering there is no clear definition of what "close" is, there's no harm in asking.  HC are the ones who define what "close" is, so better to ask before getting the generic hammer.

There not being a concrete definition provided in no way means something isn't close or that objectively some things are quite different. Thor is nowhere near Superman in concept, Hyperion--what with near idntical powers, being from a destroyed world, and having an alliterative name in secret identity, is much closer (go figure, his creator admits he was patterned on Superman).

[Scarlet Shocker]

7 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

There not being a concrete definition provided in no way means something isn't close or that objectively some things are quite different. Thor is nowhere near Superman in concept, Hyperion--what with near idntical powers, being from a destroyed world, and having an alliterative name in secret identity, is much closer (go figure, his creator admits he was patterned on Superman).

 

There's also Squadron Supreme which is Marvel's take on the JLA. But just cuz Marvel did it (and don't even mention Swamp/Man-Thing) doesn't mean we can, or should.

[ZemX]

15 minutes ago, Triumphant said:

then there's a strong chance the Devs are going to delete the offending character

 

To be clear, for anyone reading who does not know... the character is not deleted.  Name and any offending costumes on that char are randomized by a GM but you don't lose any character progress.  I don't know if you get a tailor token for each generic'd costume slot or not, but that would make sense.  Maybe someone who has had it happen to them can say. 

 

Basically, don't be afraid you will lose a character.  Worst case, you will have to come up with a new name and costume for them.   If you're worried you might be too close, make some changes or at least have a backup plan to make those changes if you have to.  Otherwise, don't sweat it.

[srmalloy]

19 minutes ago, Triumphant said:

Yes, but they have completely different costumes/visual representations and different names and backgrounds.  The only thing really similar here, is (obviously) the powersets, but the power imitations alone are not going to trigger a copywrite battle

It's an example of how much difference the 'Big Boys' rope in to make sure their imitations land outside a copyright lawsuit, and provides examples of some of the things that the HC staff has to consider when judging the acceptability of an homage character.

[Triumphant]

11 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

To be clear, for anyone reading who does not know... the character is not deleted.  Name and any offending costumes on that char are randomized by a GM but you don't lose any character progress.  I don't know if you get a tailor token for each generic'd costume slot or not, but that would make sense.  Maybe someone who has had it happen to them can say. 

 

Basically, don't be afraid you will lose a character.  Worst case, you will have to come up with a new name and costume for them.   If you're worried you might be too close, make some changes or at least have a backup plan to make those changes if you have to.  Otherwise, don't sweat it.

 

That makes sense.  Thanks for the clarification.  👍

[Triumphant]

8 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

It's an example of how much difference the 'Big Boys' rope in to make sure their imitations land outside a copyright lawsuit, and provides examples of some of the things that the HC staff has to consider when judging the acceptability of an homage character.

Legit. 👍

[Excraft]

26 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

There not being a concrete definition provided in no way means something isn't close or that objectively some things are quite different. Thor is nowhere near Superman in concept, Hyperion--what with near idntical powers, being from a destroyed world, and having an alliterative name in secret identity, is much closer (go figure, his creator admits he was patterned on Superman).

 

This has absolutely nothing to do with what I said in my reply.  Again, there is no concrete definition of what "close" means.  Since there isn't a clear definition, it in no way hurts to ask.  What you or I or anyone else considers to be "too close" is irrelevant.  That's up to HC to decide where the line is.