Come one, come all, please join us in beta testing Issue 28, Page 1.

[Ukase]

5 hours ago, Ruin Mage said:

If the community had its way or say more than it does now, HC would not be in a good state content or balance wise for new content.

Just the way it is.

Every time I see the word "balance" in reference to powersets and ATs, I immediately picture Ralph Macchio in a paddle boat standing on one leg trying to do a crane kick. 

This concept of balance needs proper definition so it means the same thing to everyone. Because your version of balance may not be balanced at all. And my idea of balanced is not on the level, I assure you. 

 

[Ruin Mage]

9 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

What's the point behind the developers starting feedback threads if the only feedback we're allowed to give is that we love every change and we agree with everything the devs say and do?

As someone who forum PVP'd in the past and has been one of the most cringe defenders on the forums, allow me!

The reality is that it's not the only feedback. The perception you're proposing is only given off because of people trying to (and they shouldn't) shout down dislike of a change. Now, mind you? There have not been great experiences with feedback. This is evident if you look back at the Defense Type Changes of a fair few pages ago. People tend to skip over the fact that the best feedback is data feedback. This is not the only valid feedback and I'll elaborate.

Does it feel terrible to play? Does the change affect a massive swathe of the game? Is there something unquestionably broken about a change? These are questions I know people don't ask themselves. Now, people reacting based off patch notes and providing some sort of good feeling feedback without testing can work. Maybe someone can see the math aint mathing right when they read the patch notes. Maybe a certain way something was worded feels...off or confusing. That stuff seems, to my view at least, quite alright.

What isn't okay (to me and I think a dev or two has posted on this before? I might be wrong) is "feedback" that goes like "This change is shit." or gutter-level stinky whinging about how the developers only listen to a select few (They don't. Trust me, as one of the many closed beta tester, they absolutely do not.)

The thing is that ardent defenders (unironic ones) tend to be one of the three problematic poster types during Open Betas. One other being the "This shit sucks." type posters.

The third type is mysterious and malleable to my opinion.

 

7 minutes ago, Ukase said:

This concept of balance needs proper definition so it means the same thing to everyone.

Balance for me is loose and malleable as needed.

One way I see it is that the balance of the game needs to be tackled. 40-50 needs to not be a breeze pre-Incarnate/IOs. There shouldn't be a mindless beat-em-up farm-4-easy xp group (see: pre-patched Council Radios) after you reach level 40. This is something people disagree with vehemently, but that's the fun of opinions. Everyone has one.

[Luminara]

9 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

This isn't a rhetorical question I'd really like an answer: What's the point behind the developers starting feedback threads if the only feedback we're allowed to give is that we love every change and we agree with everything the devs say and do?

Rhetorical or not, that question is so loaded, it's a miracle it didn't blow your own face off before you finished typing it.  You don't really grasp the concept of objectivity, do you?

[Ukase]

33 minutes ago, Ruin Mage said:

Balance for me is loose and malleable as needed.

I guess I'm problematic. Mom will be so proud! 

The way I see it, the term as you define it is nebulous. 

Loose and malleable as needed by whom? For what? 

Hate to be a pain, I'm just trying to get smarter. No easy feat for me. 

[Seed22]

1 hour ago, Uncle Shags said:

This whole thing is a wonderful, amazing gift.  The sense of entitlement and lack of gratitude is discouraging.

Lack of gratitude is an interesting choice of words.

 

What does that look like? Constant praise  of the devs? No. Absolutely not. Least not from me. 
 

This isn’t 2012 or even 2019 where I cared the most, and was the most grateful. This is 2024. This game can disappear tonight and I wouldn’t give a damn. 
 

I think its better with my current mentality where my opinions are unfettered by a sense of unyielding gratitude which will bias my delivery. 
 

I give honest feedback now whereas back them I’d give it from the lense of worrying about it disappearing tomorrow

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

Rhetorical or not, that question is so loaded, it's a miracle it didn't blow your own face off before you finished typing it.  You don't really grasp the concept of objectivity, do you?

Loaded or not the person that I was replying to claimed that all naysayers are trolls with a sense of entitlement, a claim that I dispute. I grasp the concept of objectivity quite well, as in I can disagree with a particular change but still be grateful that the devs maintain and work on Homecoming.

 

If the devs add a change that's on the beta server, and they start a thread asking for feedback, and my feedback is "I've tested this and I don't like it for this reason and I don't think it should go live. Nay, nay I say!" Now I'm a naysayer and that means, according to this person and many others in the past, that I'm a troll with a sense of entitlement.

 

So on top of the discouragement of feeling like testing is a waste of time due to the appearance of the devs not really listening to feedback unless it comes from certain people (something that I admit is emotional, subjective, and possibly quite wrong, but a feeling nonetheless), we also have to put up with players who call us trolls with a sense of entitlement simply because we disagree with something that's on the test server.

 

Since my last question wasn't acceptable because of how "loaded" it was how about this one: What's my motivation to test when I'm just going to be called a troll with a sense of entitlement if I don't agree with and celebrate every change the devs make? 

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

4 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

What's the point behind the developers starting feedback threads if the only feedback we're allowed to give is that we love every change and we agree with everything the devs say and do?

 

Your premise is false.  You can provide positive feedback, negative feedback, or no feedback at all, and preferably after you have actually logged on to the test server and tried it.

 

What we try to do on focused feedback threads is to keep the theorizing, arguing, and the "devs must be stupid, hateful people" stuff out.  As you have seen many times on the Suggestions and Feedback forums, some people on here like to argue, break into camps, and the arguments end up in insults, hidden posts, and locked threads. 

 

There's a big difference between "I tried and I don't like this because . . . " and "This is the worst thing ever made by stupid devs who don't understand the game or what people want.  They should stop doing (whatever's on open beta) and instead do what I want."

 

No, those aren't actual quotes.  But some posts I've seen are that bad and worse.  The former comment will not be hidden and may result in a change.  The latter comment will be hidden, the devs will most probably not junk what they've put hundred of hours into to create that poster's pet project.  And if that same poster continues to post that way in the focused feedback threads they might win an all expenses paid stay-cation from the forums.

 

Look for Cobalt Arachne's posts in focused feedback threads over the last few days.  Some people have tested, commented on what they didn't like, and Cobalt has responded by explaining the intent behind the new stuff and has agreed to change several things based on that feedback.

 

PS. - Have you said anything on this most recent round of focused feedback threads that's been hidden?  I don't think so.  I certainly don't remember doing it or seeing it.  In fact, very few posts from anyone have been hidden this round.  Almost everyone has been giving very focused feedback.  So thanks!

Edited July 11 by GM_GooglyMoogly

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

What's my motivation to test when I'm just going to be called a troll with a sense of entitlement if I don't agree with and celebrate every change the devs make? 

Give your feedback anyways. It's the internet, who cares what people think about you. If you think it will make this game better for the community, let it be said. There's thumbs down emotes or the reply button for folks who disagree, there's thumbs up, and really any emote I guess, for anything else. There's gifs and memes and pretty much anything this website allows within the Code of Conduct - loquacious communication (two ways) is a healthy metric for a community. 

 

Personally, I think it's a waste of everyone's time for a person to say that they don't like something without testing it. It's like reading the patch notes and saying you're going to leave the game unless they change something - it's just childish. But I'm okay with people giving that feedback - that's their prerogative. So is me disagreeing with that.

 

Edit: Of course, like Moogly said, Focused Feedback is a bit different.

Edited July 11 by Glacier Peak

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

What's my motivation to test when I'm just going to be called a troll with a sense of entitlement if I don't agree with and celebrate every change the devs make? 

 

Sorry, you made an edit while I was typing.  I don't know what your motivation is or should be.  I guess all testers share a desire to see the new stuff and most want to contribute to making a great game better.  I don't know who is going to call you "a troll with a sense of entitlement."  It certainly won't be me and I'm pretty sure no one on the GM or Dev team would post that.  So that leaves another poster.  And that is exactly the kind of comment that would not be allowed in a focused feedback thread.

 

Go ahead, PF.  Test stuff out and be critical.  I got your back!

Edited July 11 by GM_GooglyMoogly

[Luminara]

2 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

What's my motivation to test when I'm just going to be called a troll with a sense of entitlement if I don't agree with and celebrate every change the devs make?

 

To make your voice heard.

 

And regardless of what you assert, or anyone else who's complained that the HC team ignores feedback, the fact that Windbag21, who is the worst tester in history, who doesn't even know how to test, who can't make a feedback post without demanding that everything in beta be scrapped and his 742 item wishlist be implemented yesterday, gets developer responses... that's undeniable proof that they're listening.

 

Test.  Assess.  Speak.  They're listening.  That does not mean they'll change everything, or anything, but the fewer people who participate, the fewer voices there are to listen to and the more control those voices have.

 

Communication is power.  Use yours.

 

[Bionic_Flea]

13 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Communication is power.  Use yours.

 

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 hour ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

PS. - Have you said anything on this most recent round of focused feedback threads that's been hidden?  I don't think so.  I certainly don't remember doing it or seeing it.  In fact, very few posts from anyone have been hidden this round.  Almost everyone has been giving very focused feedback.  So thanks!

I haven't done any testing this time around. Because of that I also haven't posted in the feedback threads. I have been reading them though and I have to say that they do seem really calm in comparison to the last couple of rounds of testing and feedback threads.

 

It seems like everyone's missed my point though, and that has really surprised me.

[UltraAlt]

On 7/7/2024 at 11:24 AM, LegionAlpha said:

So what is the lore on this new area? Who are these new enemies and what is their beef with us?

 

lol. New enemies?

No. Layers of farm like adventure for the farmers out there.

That is what the new area appears to be to me.

It is a miss-mash of enemies in pick-your-enemies levels with a big bad to be defeated in the crunchy inside that can be avoided to go back and run the level (or another level) over-and-over gain.

Your labyrinthian farm can hold a league of up to 50 characters!

 

But, yeah, end-gamers need something go grind.

Grind on grinders.

[Digirium]

I appreciate the work that goes on behind the scenes for both the regular bug fix patches and new content page issues. Same for the open beta testers that get involved identifying both bugs and anything they feel feedback needs to be given.

 

What deters us from getting involved is how the open testing process has been mismanaged in the past and the elephant in the room of the closed beta testing group who get a heads up on what is coming up but allow easily identified issues to go to open beta and be resolved there.

[JasperStone]

Growth and change and are vital to keeping the game alive.

 

The devs are mind readers, as there are two things in these updates that I have been thinking about. Adding Midnighters Club to LRT is pretty awesome. I had that thought recently as I am working on badges with one of my characters. It is a great nexus for traveling. However  ... my preference🙂  ... would be that it was a separate power like Rapid Response Portal or Monitor Duty so I could use it more. But this is a very nice addition.

 

Mark and Recall ... something like this came up many times with friends of mine I run with. Nice.

 

I am on the road and can't test, but the Labyrinth interests me. I introduced a friend to the game. He hated it ... the maps were the same ... too easy to figure out. 

 

I work at a university. A testament to its financial stability and vitality is renovation and new buildings. New stuff. Sometimes it means that SOME people see no value in the new stuff. When you go behind the scenes, you find these were the things that COULD be done and also gave huge financial returns. My university just opened an incredible new soccer field to much outcry of WHY!!!! Then you find out there is a huge soccer community, and we can rent it out. We are being considered for nationally televised games. TV money ... oh.

 

We could have a whole page of things addressing ideas from the Suggestion and Forums ... then people would be complaining that we did not have new power sets, new story arcs ... sigh

 

With all these new features, there's so much to explore. Let's dive in and start playing!

No  ... that doesn't mean we can't share our negative feedback.

I was part of the Hami discussion ...hoping that happens

Been Part of other discussions for changes ... hoping they happen.

I also stand against some of the suggested changes...

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

9 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

It seems like everyone's missed my point though, and that has really surprised me.

 

Please explain it to me because I thought I understood both of the sentences I quoted from your posts.

[Ukase]

9 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 

lol. New enemies?

No. Layers of farm like adventure for the farmers out there.

That is what the new area appears to be to me.

It is a miss-mash of enemies in pick-your-enemies levels with a big bad to be defeated in the crunchy inside that can be avoided to go back and run the level (or another level) over-and-over gain.

Your labyrinthian farm can hold a league of up to 50 characters!

 

But, yeah, end-gamers need something go grind.

Grind on grinders.

If the labyrinth appears this way to you, I don't think you've given it a fair look. So far, it has been different for me each time. Because the success or failure of other players can add level shifts to you and everyone else in zone, you can find yourself looking at a herd of level 54+1's and they con grey. But you missed the level 54+10 in the middle who kills you with one attack, seemingly. Maybe it was some DoT and I was just too slow to react. Either way - this might be "farmable" by a team of competent players. But, it's certainly not risk free, and the rewards are fairly low. Three reward merits for beating up a pinata that doesn't attack. But what's not in the fine print is while you're attacking this pinata, a level 54+11 minotaur wants to gore you. You can't just ignore a minotaur and tackle the pinata. The hp on this thing, I haven't checked, but you'll want your lore pets to help with dps. 

There's a lot more to this zone than your post suggests you're aware of. 

I'm not saying competent players won't use this as an option to increase the rate of influence or xp if they can - but there's absolutely nothing wrong with earning it. And you would earn it here doing something different than what we've been doing. Different in terms of content. Same in button mashing. But there's no real way around that. 

[golstat2003]

On 7/6/2024 at 7:04 PM, Lazarillo said:

These are all really just one thing, and well, meh.  I figure it's the same as every other hardmode TF, just open world, and those aren't fun, so why would the new zone be?

 

Seems needlessly complex/laden with janky mechanics.  Can't see myself wanting to figure it out when there's more straightforward stuff out there.

 

A system I've never thought was worth engaging with.

 

Lost interest in badging a few pages back.  Ironically they became such a slog that I stopped trying to get more.

 

There's, uh, one new Teleport, and a change couple changes copy/pasted from Energy blast to the Energy APP, and from what I saw.  Was there more?

 

 

You can't, and I ain't saying it ain't grand for people who like this stuff, but it's a pretty bare-bones feature compared to what the last page was, especially if you don't care about farming Aether the way someone on the HC staff really, really, really, seems to think people should want to.

 

I'd rather they keep with smaller pages so we get more updates a year. IMO.

[golstat2003]

On 7/7/2024 at 3:09 PM, Cobalt Arachne said:

The Labyrinth of Fog is not advanced/hardmode content, it's not even Incarnate content, no more so than something like a Hamidon or RWZ Mothership raid is considered as such.

 

The Labyrinth of Fog is more... another style of group content aimed at providing a similar format of consumption to that of the popular Halloween leagues + GM hunts combined with a 'once a day per character' raid boss payout to engage with/target, and a variety of rewards that can be prioritized/optimized by the individual raid leaders.

 

It's not meant to be difficult, it's meant to be engaging.

 

But the zone is also a liminal space maze, with a variety of sights, discoveries, lore, stories, and prizes to discover that encourage exploring, a lot of which was designed to be doable solo with some stealth, independent of raids going-on.

 

I encourage anyone curious to give it a try, it's pioneering a lot of new approaches to things.

 

As with everything we create, there will be fans and those who decide it's not for them, which is normal for any work.

 

At least for me, I'm always looking to explore the horizons of new experiences, but I understand some prefer less complex experiences and that's okay too.

 

Ummm aren't AUTO incarante level shifts in operation in the zone? Wouldn't that right there have some folks considering it being incarnate content?

 

RWZ and Hami don't have any real incarnate level shifts in operation.

[Maelwys]

2 hours ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

  

12 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

It seems like everyone's missed my point though, and that has really surprised me.

Please explain it to me because I thought I understood both of the sentences I quoted from your posts.

If I'm reading PF's previous posts right, the point they're making is "I don't feel it's worth providing honest feedback, because I've previously done so and been punished (via accusations of trolling etc) whenever said feedback has been negative and/or unpopular"?

Now personally, I have some negative feedback about the Labyrinth - I do not enjoy "random" severely punitive mechanics even when offset by potential rewards (a classic example is a roulette wheel or "mimic" treasure box setup in other games where you are randomly either instantly killed or given a reward) and as a result, I do not enjoy running around in a maze with a level 54+10 archvillain behind me. That makes me feel like I'm a mouse stuck in a cage with a cat, not a powerful superhero.
A [My Current Level]+5 Archvillain - who I have a chance of surviving and beating - sure. That's fine. And I understand that the objective of the zone is to team up and gain level shifts so that things get easier to manage.
However those level shifts currently decay too rapidly for a small squad of heroes, let alone a solo one - I'm simply unable to put up a decent fight. On the larger population servers this might not be a huge deal, but not on Brainstorm in UK primetime hours it seems; and I expect the same will be true on Reunion once this hits live.  So personally it would be very much appreciated if you could allow the Labyrinth level shifts to last 30 or 60 minutes, not five... or alternatively let their duration scale in inverse proportion to the number of active players in the zone.

I don't know if that feedback is likely to get me trolled (and I don't really care) but voicing it certainly feels important to me... 🤷‍♂️
 

Edited July 11 by Maelwys

[Ukase]

2 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

However those level shifts currently decay too rapidly for a small squad of heroes, let alone a solo one. On the larger population servers this might not be a huge deal, but not on Brainstorm in UK primetime hours it seems; and I expect the same will be true on Reunion once this hits live. So personally it would be very much appreciated if you could allow the Labyrinth level shifts to last 30 or 60 minutes, not five... or alternatively let their duration scale in inverse proportion to the number of active players in the zone.

I agree with your suggestion here. I didn't have any real specifics on duration, but I did make this suggestion in the focused feedback thread. 

There were only 7 or so folks in the labyrinth when I was briefly on last night. Given my previous experiences solo, there's just not a lot for me to get out of it unless I resort to using the beta tester "I win" buttons. And I don't want to do that on the minotaur because that removes it from the zone for an hour, and another player might want that interaction. 

So, I definitely agree, the 5 minutes isn't the right duration for lower populated times. I don't know what the proper duration would be. But it isn't 5 minutes. At least, I don't think so. 
 

[golstat2003]

17 hours ago, Ukase said:

Every time I see the word "balance" in reference to powersets and ATs, I immediately picture Ralph Macchio in a paddle boat standing on one leg trying to do a crane kick. 

This concept of balance needs proper definition so it means the same thing to everyone. Because your version of balance may not be balanced at all. And my idea of balanced is not on the level, I assure you. 

 

 

This. After what I have seen and read over the last year I trust the community's idea of balance less and less each time. With that said there were a few changes I am glad got rolled back and never seen the light of day, during Closed beta. So not even the devs have a perfect idea of balance.

 

You need to take each powerset at a time for considering balance. This idea that there is this perfect idea of balance that is just known, is a fallacy.

 

[golstat2003]

31 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

If I'm reading PF's previous posts right, the point they're making is "I don't feel it's worth providing honest feedback, because I've previously done so and been punished (via accusations of trolling etc) whenever said feedback has been negative and/or unpopular"?

Now personally, I have some negative feedback about the Labyrinth - I do not enjoy "random" severely punitive mechanics even when offset by potential rewards (a classic example is a roulette wheel or "mimic" treasure box setup in other games where you are randomly either instantly killed or given a reward) and as a result, I do not enjoy running around in a maze with a level 54+10 archvillain behind me. That makes me feel like I'm a mouse stuck in a cage with a cat, not a powerful superhero.
A [My Current Level]+5 Archvillain - who I have a chance of surviving and beating - sure. That's fine. And I understand that the objective of the zone is to team up and gain level shifts so that things get easier to manage.
However those level shifts currently decay too rapidly for a small squad of heroes, let alone a solo one - I'm simply unable to put up a decent fight. On the larger population servers this might not be a huge deal, but not on Brainstorm in UK primetime hours it seems; and I expect the same will be true on Reunion once this hits live.  So personally it would be very much appreciated if you could allow the Labyrinth level shifts to last 30 or 60 minutes, not five... or alternatively let their duration scale in inverse proportion to the number of active players in the zone.

I don't know if that feedback is likely to get me trolled (and I don't really care) but voicing it certainly feels important to me... 🤷‍♂️
 

 

Saying this for you and everyone else (I think the GM said it earlier also): give your feedback (good or bad) and ignore the trolls.  As long as you give honest feedback (especially after you tried something in test) then no issue.

[lemming]

3 hours ago, JasperStone said:

We could have a whole page of things addressing ideas from the Suggestion and Forums ... then people would be complaining that we did not have new power sets, new story arcs ... sigh

 

With all these new features, there's so much to explore. Let's dive in and start playing!

No  ... that doesn't mean we can't share our negative feedback.

I was part of the Hami discussion ...hoping that happens

Been Part of other discussions for changes ... hoping they happen.

I also stand against some of the suggested changes...

Yep. Some of the stuff that people complain about not being done, are being worked on, just not ready for testing on open.

I'm happy with the current scope of what is on beta since there's only so much time you can spend on testing.  Heck, I spent hours yesterday almost the entire time in the labyrinth and only scratched the surface.  In the year I've been able to access closed beta, there's a lot of proposals, some pan out, some sit and bake for a bit.   The Ashling arc is one of those.  (Remote bomb took how long before being in a release?)

 

One thing I've liked is how much the devs have listened to the testers. Both closed and open so far.   (Yay, no more spikey insta death, etc...)

 

 

 

[lemming]

39 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Ummm aren't AUTO incarante level shifts in operation in the zone? Wouldn't that right there have some folks considering it being incarnate content?

 

RWZ and Hami don't have any real incarnate level shifts in operation.

Just the Alpha shift, like RWZ and Hami.

 

The other shifts apply to everyone and when you enter, you are level 50 even if outside, you're 45.