Controller tweaks

[Spectre7878]

I love controllers. They are one of my favorite classes in city of heroes. My only wish for them would be more durable pets across the board. I feel it’s one of their main source of damage. 
 

I also wish that ancillary/patron power attacks would get more damage potential. 

I also never understood why aoe holds get less accuracy out of the box. I feel this should be increased as well. Dominators get domination which locks things down. Controllers should get better holds since they don’t have domination. 
 

I know ever class has there place but give controllers a little love in these two fields I feel would make them better. 
 

I hope my post doesn’t get ripped too shreds. I just feel controllers could use some love in this state of the game. 
 

😊

[Uun]

<-- Suggestion Forum is over thataway

[MonteCarla]

A lot of controllers can make their pets more durable through their secondary by giving them resistance or defence buffs (and healing them).

Some combos eg Earth/Sonic, Grav/Sonic, anything/Force Fields already have super-sturdy pets. Some like Fire/Kin, less so.

 

Totally agree on the low accuracy of AoE holds. That (and the 240 second recharge) are holdovers from Issue 1 and some design principles that are no longer followed.

 

Dominators are better controllers than Controllers thanks to Domination, but then again that's all they have to keep themselves alive. Controllers get buffs and debuffs from their secondaries too.

And if you want to play a super-controlly Controller, try /Rad or /Nature and take the Hold auras (Entangling Vines, Choking Cloud).

 

The support powersets controllers get as secondaries are easily the most mechanically varied sets in the game, so that makes it kind of hard to pin down how Controllers perform across the board.

 

 

[SeraphimKensai]

10 hours ago, MonteCarla said:

Totally agree on the low accuracy of AoE holds. That (and the 240 second recharge) are holdovers from Issue 1 and some design principles that are no longer followed.

Yes the accuracy was lower due to it being an AoE from i1, but the recharge wasn't increased to 240 seconds base until i5 iirc. The devs made the recharge increase to supposedly balance out the damage bonus from the new inherent containment power.

[Uun]

21 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Yes the accuracy was lower due to it being an AoE from i1, but the recharge wasn't increased to 240 seconds base until i5 iirc. The devs made the recharge increase to supposedly balance out the damage bonus from the new inherent containment power.

Despite the patch notes stating the above, this is only partially correct. Containment was actually introduced to offset the massive nerf to controller pets. Prior to I5, controller pets could stack and you could have multiples out at the same time.

[SeraphimKensai]

4 hours ago, Uun said:

Despite the patch notes stating the above, this is only partially correct. Containment was actually introduced to offset the massive nerf to controller pets. Prior to I5, controller pets could stack and you could have multiples out at the same time.

I miss my 12 of so Fire Imps to this day.

[UltraAlt]

On 7/13/2024 at 9:44 PM, Spectre7878 said:

I also never understood why aoe holds get less accuracy out of the box.

 

I'm sure that this has already been addressed, but the accuracy is low so that you don't automatically hit all the enemies in the target area. The hit check is on each enemy individually, so you are bound to get some even with a low accuracy.

 

On 7/13/2024 at 9:44 PM, Spectre7878 said:

Controllers should get better holds since they don’t have domination. 

 

Controllers get Containment. 

Controllers do extra damage to any target that is already Held, Immobilized, Slept, or Disoriented.

 

Would you rather give up that to have increased hold potential/duration to say "immobilized, slept, or disoriented" enemies?

 

I would rather have the increased damage and slot https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Lockdown:_Chance_for_%2B2_Mag_Hold (see the bonus below for augmenting this with more from the same set) and the Controller Archetype Enhancement sets (I split them between powers to yield the greatest duration bonuses ... they stack ...)

 

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Will_of_the_Controller

Three enhancements improves the duration of your Immobilize effects by 6%.

Three enhancements improves the duration of your Sleep effects by 6%.

Three enhancements improves the duration of your Fear effects by 3.3%.

Three enhancements improves the duration of your Confuse effects by 3%.

Three enhancements improves the duration of your Hold effects by 3%.

Three enhancements improves the duration of your Stun effects by 3%.

 

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Overpowering_Presence

Two enhancements improves the duration of your Immobilize effects by 4%.

Two enhancements improves the duration of your Sleep effects by 4%.

Two enhancements improves the duration of your Fear effects by 2.2%.

Two enhancements improves the duration of your Confuse effects by 2%.

Two enhancements improves the duration of your Hold effects by 2%.

Two enhancements improves the duration of your Stun effects by 2%.

 

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Lockdown

Two enhancements improves the Damage of all your powers by 3%.

Three enhancements improves the duration of your Hold effects by 2.5%.

Four enhancements increases Fire and Cold Resistance by 3.75%.

Four enhancements reduces the duration of Immobilize effects on you by 6.25%.

Four enhancements reduces the duration of Hold effects on you by 6.25%.

Four enhancements reduces the duration of Stun effects on you by 6.25%.

Four enhancements reduces the duration of Sleep effects on you by 6.25%.

Four enhancements reduces the duration of Fear effects on you by 6.25%.

Four enhancements reduces the duration of Confuse effects on you by 6.25%.

 

On 7/13/2024 at 9:44 PM, Spectre7878 said:

I know ever class has there place but give controllers a little love in these two fields I feel would make them better. 

 

I think Controllers are well balanced myself.

 

On 7/13/2024 at 9:44 PM, Spectre7878 said:

I hope my post doesn’t get ripped too shreds. I just feel controllers could use some love in this state of the game. 

 

I'm glad that you posted.

 

I hope some of my suggestions for enhancement slotting will  help you get that Controller "love" you are looking for.

[Riverdusk]

I'll go briefly into my usual controller AoE hold rant yet again.   

 

Several AT's have nukes which can basically wipe out an entire group of enemies and also often have their own mez/debuff effects for any that survive, recharge in roughly half the time, AND they actually have an accuracy BONUS. 

 

Controllers get an accuracy penalty, have double the recharge time, and all it does is hold them, rather than outright defeat them.  

 

At the very least they should have roughly the same recharge as a nuke and drop the accuracy penalty.   Only 'advantage' would be they are typically available at a lower level than the nukes.  If necessary push them all up to a higher level.  The rare times I do take them I tend to leave them to later in a build anyway.  I'd rather have more useful powers available at lower levels.

[vibal]

The challenge I see is the metric for "good" on controllers is much more varied than other AT's. And the gap between performers is much wider. Illusion has been soloing Lusca since live and fire/kin was the blue side farmer pre-going rogue and AE and neither has seen downgrades in performance. Those are going to feel a whole lot different than say.... ice/force field. A class adjustment isn't going to close that gap even if it makes the underperformers feel more playable. Calls for a buff of that nature are going to be met with "lol I just soloed the RSF again".

 

I'd certainly agree that underperforming sets need to be brought to a better standard. The class also needs some role at higher level play as many of the late game enemies simply eliminate your primary (rularuu, cim's, any +star content, etc.). I can't say I know a fix, but lowering the recharge on a power type that has no effect at late game wouldn't be it.

 

As re: dom vs. controller I'd say just really think about how often you see dominators out in the wild in your PuG's. Now subtract plant dominators from that number. Dom's aren't out here dunking on controllers for general utility/playability.

[TheMoncrief]

On 7/15/2024 at 2:10 PM, SeraphimKensai said:

Yes the accuracy was lower due to it being an AoE from i1, but the recharge wasn't increased to 240 seconds base until i5 iirc. The devs made the recharge increase to supposedly balance out the damage bonus from the new inherent containment power.

And because they'd just got done nerfing the batcrap out of all protection sets in I4, and AoE controls being available every single pull was even better protection than just having top notch resistance and defense and a bucketload of HP - especially since Scrappers and Tankers had just lost those things.

 

They were big on the whole risk vs. reward paradigm back then, however flawed it has proven to be since.

[tidge]

While I don't quite align myself with the OP (because not all Controllers get pets), I have long felt.... since the days of Live... that Controllers were on the losing end of "the game is balanced around IOs" philosophy/paradigm. There are IMO many ways to see this... see the post above by @Riverdusk ... for myself I always felt the disparity between a Controller and other ATs when facing large spawns (solo, or on teams)... because the Controller can trivially get the attention of a large spawn using its "nuke", but is then faced with:

1. The aggro of all the non-controlled critters
2. "What next?" for all the controlled critters (start spamming the single-target controls, Bob!)

I've long been in a headspace where I believe it is only through crafted enhancements (especially %damage, and set bonuses) that can make Controllers capable of handling content like other ATs can handle content. As I have often written: The game's reward system is for defeating enemies. This is IMO a fine way to have rewards (I can't think think of an easier, more straightforward mechanism that we players know works), but for ATs like Controllers, it is pretty much only %procs (specifically %damage procs) that keeps the reward scales-per-unit-time within an order-of-magnitude of other ATs.

[hoodedKitsune]

On 7/15/2024 at 6:04 PM, SeraphimKensai said:

I miss my 12 of so Fire Imps to this day.

MAN, I remember those days! Seeing a group of 12 imps buzzed up with Kin; was high speed walking death in a blender! Can you imagine if we had Cold back then!?!

[Wimbochismo]

Unfortunately Controller's are probably the only AT that can end up doing practically no damage unless you go out of your way to fit it in - although that does vary by primary. I definitely agree with @tidge, damage procs elevate the dps viability of Controller's in today's meta. The only thing I worry about is if they ever decide to "fix" or massively change procs in some way. Controller's as a whole would have to be tweaked to at least be capable of dps.

 

The current issue goes a bit deeper though. With the reliance on procs that means you miss out on set bonuses as well. Typically the single target hold gets procced out to have at least 1 decent attack. Increased accuracy requirements need to be met here and there. Premium end costs have to be paid. Powers like Arcane Bolt need to be taken. The Overpowering Presence ATO provides minimal bonuses compared to say the Corruptor one that can be split for extra recharge.

 

All of that together makes reaching building metrics like perma Hasten recharge, 45 def etc. that much harder. I find that other AT's, even Dom's have an easier time. I often end up relying on the gimmicks of the support secondary to hit build goals. Building a Controller that does dmg and other things well is a challenge.

 

As things stand I think Controller's are in a decent enough place. It would be cool if they could extended Containment to Fear and Confuse or something. Ironically I actually use my controls most often on my Controller's. With procced controls being the source of my dmg I have to use them. While on my Dom's I usually have to stop dpsing to use a control.

[ExeErdna]

Controllers do simply that control. I mean an Ice/Time will do NO damage at all. Yet they will be the MVP by keeping the whole group alive by basically hugging the tank or they might end up being the tank. To me pretty much maining them they're about the gimmick you want to do instead of upfront damage. You can kit out a Fire/Time, Traps, TA, Marine, Kin, Cold, Storm and Poison to do some consistent damage. Yet is that the gimmick you want? A recent example since Marine dropped. I will say Fire meshes much better than Marine than Arsenal yet I just like the more supportive role than the aggressive one.

[honoroit]

Mace mastery - You can put a bunch of procs in 'poisonous ray' and a few in 'disruptor blast' to help with damage a bit, while it's 'scorpuon shield' is definitely boosting.

 

Illusion does ok when you've perma PA, and you can drop it on groups to tank as they're immune.

 

Dark control/dark affinity is a combination that'll make any group very hardy, mobs can't hit you, you grant def, there's plenty of slots for luck of the gambler, and you have an AOE rez that stuns and can stack with the stun in the dark control set.

 

Cast the AOE immob often, don't skip darkest night, put a couple of recharges in howling twilight, and use it like a control power on cool down layered with heart of darkness. I skip possess.

 

dark/dark/Mace is quite strong as a result - it makes for very safe teaming, and you feel impactful.

 

You'd buff bigger numbers with /kin, but the impact of enemies not being able to hit your team is quite remarkable, even with tougher enemies, kupo.

 

-- Figs, powerset expert

Edited August 12 by honoroit

[tidge]

10 hours ago, ExeErdna said:

Controllers do simply that control. I mean an Ice/Time will do NO damage at all. Yet they will be the MVP by keeping the whole group alive by basically hugging the tank or they might end up being the tank. To me pretty much maining them they're about the gimmick you want to do instead of upfront damage.

 

It's a reasonable argument to make that "my view is that controllers aren't about doing damage", but it ignores that 99% of the game's rewards are directly correlated with doing damage. If damage-dealing ATs required a controller to mezz EVERY critter before critters could be defeated, that would be a TERRIBLE game. Even in-game circumstances that explicitly require controls (e.g. Hamidon raids) have been done without Controllers (the 8-man Stalker runs).

[Uun]

9 hours ago, Death2Tyrants said:

Elec/ gets it one level earlier and has a 60s recharge but a 28s duration. It has significantly lower accuracy and is subject to a critical miss if it fails on first target and has a slow propagation effect since it chains so slowly.

You've got this flipped. Mass Confusion has the accuracy penalty, not Synaptic Overload.

[patunya]

i just want seeds of confusion to get nerfed

[arcane]

1 minute ago, patunya said:

i just want seeds of confusion to get nerfed

Yeah it needs to be.

[Force Redux]

On 8/28/2024 at 8:13 AM, arcane said:

Yeah it needs to be.

Or y'know, just bring other sets up to Plant performance. It's not like controllers are really breaking the game as it stands. 

[tidge]

IMO what sets Plant Control apart from other sets are the "fire and forget" powers that have the practical effect (for me) that I have to pay very little attention to most of the enemies in a spawn. Those powers are:

• Seeds of Confusion (level 😎 (*1), which becomes insanely good with the Coercive Persuasion set. Specifically, the %Contagious Confusion seems to pick up nearly all the targets that may have been missed on an initial attack.
• Carrion Creepers (level 22), which is practically a self-regenerating AoE 'nuke'

With just those two powers, for a lot of content I find that I have plenty of time to figure out how to do whatever else I want to do with the character.

 

(*1) It is insane comparing Seeds of Confusion with Mind Control's T9 Mass Confusion. I still don't know what the Live Devs were thinking, beyond subscriptions.