The Dual Blades Gimmick

[Ukase]

So, I can comfortably blame Troo and his internet dice for coming up with an ice/dual blades tank for me to play next. 

I played a couple of dual blades when HC first opened. I remember really liking 1000 cuts, but not much else. 
Is my memory correct in that these combos are fairly worthless? Sometimes, the attack the combo system would have me use isn't recharged. I think this is why I haven't returned to dual swords. I also have a memory of thinking the attack chains the combos would have me use aren't very likely to give me the most dps..but it's been since 2020, I think, since I played one. 

Can someone refresh my feeble memory? 



 

[lemming]

Vague stuff warning:

My main badger is a DB/WP scrapper.    I use two of the combos, but not the other one since I skipped a couple powers.   They do add to the overall punch, but I know a lot of people find a better way to pull more DPS.   The change that HC added where you can miss, but still build toward the combo helps a lot.

I can cycle thru both combos without stop without hasten with the build up attack inbetween.

[Marshal_General]

I think most people use Blinding Feint and the Attack Vitals combo unless they get stupid levels of recharge and can skip combos.

[Greycat]

I kind of hated the set 'til I just ... ignored combos, yeah. It makes actually  *hitting* one feel more like "hey, bonus" rather than something you should be chasing.

[Yomo Kimyata]

Every 6-12 months I pull one of these out and try to make them work, and then I reshelve them.

 

I don't find any of the combos all that worthwhile, certainly not enough to go out of my way to make them happen.  I'm generally going to be AoE oriented, so Sweep and Attack Vitals are probably my overall focus, but that's a drag when you are down to one hard target.

 

But the real problem for me is the animation for Typhoon's Edge.  I can't stand it.  And to me it is too crippling to skip the key AoE.

[UltraAlt]

I end up using all of them.

 

I alternate between

Empower>Weaken>Attack Vitals

Empower>Weaken>Sweep

 

Unless I'm fighting a single target, then I just use

Empower>Weaken>Attack Vitals

 

I setup the combos in two trays, and tray flip back-and-forth (with a button push on my controller - thanks to macros for tray flips).

 

I haven't played on for a while, but the different mechanic is fun.

[High_Beam]

Of course it's gimmicky, but unlike Staff Fighting it has enough finesse to keep my attention.  Well Now that there is Break Dancing in the Paris Games I suppose Staff Fighting works.

[ZekeStenzland]

Sigh…

 

Of all the damage sets, this is the only one that I always take all the powers so I can do all the combos. They may not be the greatest powers, but THEY LOOK SO AWESOME!!!

 

That’s all I have to say…

[srmalloy]

22 hours ago, ZekeStenzland said:

Of all the damage sets, this is the only one that I always take all the powers so I can do all the combos.

It's been too long since I had my DB scrappers back on Live, and I've gotten out of the muscle memory of the rotation that looped its way through the three combos -- I need to practice more so I don't just fall back on the 'what power is recharged?' crutch.

[Ukase]

So far, I'm having a better understanding of ice armor, that's for sure - even if Dual blades is leaving me a bit of fuzzy thinking. 

There is one thing that is really bugging me - and that is Typhoon's Edge when it's the finishing move of the Sweep combo. (I'm level 42 and I still have to use the wiki to figure out what the names of these powers and combos are if I'm not logged in)

When I use Typhoon's Edge as the finisher to the Weaken combo, it works great. But when I use it on the Sweep, it send them flying. So, now I have to waste a slot on an IO that doesn't directly do anything, but negates them flying away. (already have the overwhelming force IO in 1000 cuts) Or, just don't use the combo. 

For my money - that alone makes the set in need of refinement. 
I understand a need for a blaster or another lower HP character to make use of KB. It doesn't make sense for a tank to do so - at least, not to me. And I'm even okay with certain NPCs being susceptible to KB, but it seems to happen no matter what mobs I'm fighting. 

So, I will be playing ice armor again - as I'm learning more about it, I'm seeing the value in it. (I suppose if hoarfrost had a faster recharge, ice armor would be too OP) I do think Shield is much, much better than Ice Armor, as are Bio and Radiation and invuln, but I do see value in it now, whereas before I didn't. 

The best part of Dual blades are the sound effects. Particularly 1000 cuts. I could listen to that in a loop. 
 

[ZekeStenzland]

It occurs to me that I have only really played Dual Blades on Stalkers. As much as it pains me to say this, my DB opinions for other lesser melee ATs may not be based on reality. 
 

But really, who actually plays any AT other than Stalkers anyway? 😉

 

[Yomo Kimyata]

59 minutes ago, Ukase said:

When I use Typhoon's Edge as the finisher to the Weaken combo, it works great. But when I use it on the Sweep, it send them flying. So, now I have to waste a slot on an IO that doesn't directly do anything, but negates them flying away. (already have the overwhelming force IO in 1000 cuts) Or, just don't use the combo. 

 

I think this should only be happening if you are stacking knock* from other sources as well.  The knock* from the Sweep is 0.67, which in and of itself will cause knockdown.  However, if you have enough knock* from other sources to get that magnitude over about 0.75, then they will get knocked back instead.

 

I did some testing on this a long time ago and I don't remember exactly what the upshot was.  The Sudden Acceleration proc takes total knock* and divides it by ten IIRC, which should almost always get you under 0.75 and this knockdown rather than knockback.  The Power Overwhelming proc also divides by ten, but when the proc activates I don't remember if that is before or after the divide by ten part.  Needless to say, there are absolutely times when some foes get knocked down and some get knocked back and that almost certainly has to do with whether a proc gets activated or not.

[Ukase]

14 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

if you are stacking knock* from other sources as well

The only thing I can think of that might do it would be the Avalanche Recharge/Chance for Knockdown that is mucking with the math somehow. Yeah, I unslotted it - and no more KB. 
Very odd. 
Just to be sure, I put the Recharge/Chance for Knockdown back in - and they fly again. (the minions, not the lieuts) 

[lemming]

4 minutes ago, Ukase said:

The only thing I can think of that might do it would be the Avalanche Recharge/Chance for Knockdown that is mucking with the math somehow. Yeah, I unslotted it - and no more KB. 
Very odd. 
Just to be sure, I put the Recharge/Chance for Knockdown back in - and they fly again. (the minions, not the lieuts) 

Yep. Anything that already has Knockdown and adding a chance for Knockdown from a proc has a chance then of causing Knockback

[Ukase]

I hate math. 

[Yomo Kimyata]

2 hours ago, Ukase said:

I hate math. 

 

You're going to hate my upcoming guide then for SO MANY REASONS.

[Ukase]

18 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

You're going to hate my upcoming guide then for SO MANY REASONS.

I'm not smart enough to be scared! lol 

 

[Sharlisse]

As someone whose main character on Live was a DB/WP scrapper, who I also played as a DB/WP brute and WP/DB tank, there's one thing that always bothers me about most Dual Blades discussions.
 

For some reason, nobody EVER seems to bring up that  the Attack Vitals combo followed by the Sweep combo offers three knockdowns with just six attacks. (Plus literal bonus points if you want to add Blinding Feint for the +10% to hit and +30% damage bonuses.)  As already mentioned, missing an attack now means the combo will still "finish," which seems like a lot of control -- and damage mitigation -- from a DPS AT.

 

If you're fighting a tough boss, that means he's too busy standing up -- over and over again -- to attack you nearly as often! Of course, for the full effect, you have to delay Typhoon's Edge slightly until he starts to stand up again, which means deciding between raw DPS or reducing incoming damage.

And with 5 LotG 7.5% and a set bonus or two, you can just stick with Blinding Feint -> Attack Vitals nonstop for fast single target damage, shorter animation times, and that +10%/+30% to hit/damage bonus. 

Edited July 29 by Sharlisse

[ZacKing]

I liked Dual Blades for a long while.  I had a DB/SR scrapper that was a lot of fun.  I abandoned it because I couldn't stand the whole need to land a hit to get the BU from Blinding Feint.  That was annoying AF. 

[Nemu]

High dps DB scrapper builds skip the combos and rotate Blinding Feint, Ablating strike and Sweeping Strike + snipe. It requires a lot of recharge but Ice armor provides the LOTG mules to make that goal more obtainable. You will take most attacks but a good deal of them are just purple/scrapper ATO mules for the recharge. Defensive armor sets that also offer some +rech really help such builds and Ice doesn't have such a recharge boosting power (but it does have an end recovery power to sustain then endurance requirements of a high recharge buzzsaw build). so this means you'll need to slot more recharge reduction in the 3 staple powers instead of procs.

 

The flashy AOE powers are a bit clunky, once you are able to get your chain down to those 3 core powers + snipe you will feel a difference in playstyle, from posing and pausing to a true buzzsaw of doom. You can use the combos and the flashy powers if you choose to since you need them as recharge bonus mules, but when it's time for serious business you can also forgo those powers go into dps mode.

[pawstruck]

On 7/28/2024 at 1:43 PM, Ukase said:

I hate math. 

 

Qft.

 

I especially hate matching 20 year-old games where half the people are +4/x8-ing on squishies because ATOs broke everything.

 

I'm just here to look cool and pretend I'm a superhero for 30 minutes at a time while my kids nap.

[Lusiphur Malache]

My db/elec brute uses 3 combos Empower, Weaken, and Attack Vitals.  Hasten on auto and 5 LoTG Global Recharges.  I always start with a combo after 2 only bosses are standing, and they are usually low on hp.  I used to keep another attack to finish mobs off, but stopped with I started using combat teleport so I could finish my combos on a new mob.  I also love 1k cuts, but so do teammates and in particular pugs, like to watch a bit too much instead of doing their jobs.  Friend missed a heal I really could have used because she knew 1k cuts was coming up.

[Erratic1]

On 7/29/2024 at 12:35 PM, Sharlisse said:

For some reason, nobody EVER seems to bring up that  the Attack Vitals combo followed by the Sweep combo offers three knockdowns with just six attacks.

 

Am running the story arc that features endless Dark Warwolves on my Bio/DB Tanker right now, and am so thankful for having the knockdowns.