Thoughts on Fold Space Etiquette on Leagues and Teams

[Digirium]

Either rip it out of the game reversing the addition to the TP pool OR give the user some very heavy penalties -DEF -RES -DMG keep going with them penalties. It is one of the worst powers in the game used to grief teams and leagues. Get it gone or make it so that only someone with a brain can use it effectively or they die for their stupidity.

[Oklahoman]

6 hours ago, Laucianna said:

I've been using fold space for over a year now and never seen the dislike for it by anyone like I have Group fly, granted I use it to pull mobs away from mobs into a more central location to stop people all swarming two doors and being unable to click them. Not sure if I am getting SUPER lucky with having zero complaints about it as it gathers a bunch of scattered mobs into one central area to be nuked, which is better for everyone who uses AoEs.

But Fold Space 100% has it's uses in a team/league so it's better to let people know how to use it more effectively rather then say Group Fly or Dimension shifting enemies which only helps the player but affects the league 💛

 

Totally agree - not sure if I have ever had someone complain about about Fold Space, but boy do I hear complaints about Group Fly. (Friendly reminder to take all your characters to see Null The Gull and set permissions there for Group Fly, Speed Boost, etc.)

 

The bigger complaint I personally have is with Destiny's Incandescence. In Dilemma Diabolique, for instance, players sometimes like to be really "helpful" and Incan the league past the first few mobs (after I have just said to take out everything except spines up until the second bridge), or Incan the league to Positron/Valkyrie first instead of Back Alley Brawler/Mynx as I (being the leader and all) prefer. Much like with Hami's where we ask for only Team 1 to use it, I really feel like this power is something you need to be sure you are on the same page as the group leader is before you use it inside of a mission/trial. Otherwise, at a minimum, you create an annoyance with a popup message, probably create confusion, and at worst are actively griefing by Incanning the league someplace like right next to Marauder immediately before a Nova Fist.

[ZacKing]

12 hours ago, lemming said:

It's one of my favorite powers when used right, but like anything can be used badly.

 

16 hours ago, Greycat said:

And generally - all it takes is a warning a second or two before you use it so people know what's going on. The people I see using it generally dump mobs in th emiddle of a killing spot. (Or it's an MSR and they're dropped right in the bowl.)

 

Just communicate. Problem solved.

 

Those comments sum things up rather nicely.  Fold Space itself isn't the problem, it's people using it badly and/or not communicating that they're using it that is the problem.

 

My take is I don't think it's necessary on ToT Leagues for the exact reasons already covered in this thread.  I've seen it a few times myself where players in a League are using it and other players ask them to stop.  Most of the time they're nice about it and stop using Fold Space since it really isn't necessary with a full league pounding stuff.  There are a few people though who I thought were just complete assholes about it and they got added to my ignore list for how rude they were to others.

 

This part is the important piece I think -

 

On 10/6/2024 at 9:57 AM, Excraft said:

Being engaged with a large mob only to have it pulled away from right in front of them is taking that fun away and enjoyment from someone else.

 

Think of it like being on a playground playing with your toys and someone else steals them from you or you're out at a restaurant about to dig into your meal and someone comes and takes your plate away.  You often see people complaining about others venturing off on their own when on a team to fight mobs ahead of where the main group is.  This is why people do that.  They want to have fun fighting stuff.  If others are going to take that enjoyment away from them, purposefully or not, it's taking the fun away from others.

 

Best thing is to be courteous to others.  ToTing really doesn't need a "murder box" where mobs from all around need to be teleported to.  There's enough people on the leagues to kill stuff quickly and efficiently.  One thing to keep in mind, there's a reason powers like Group Fly and Teleporting have prompts and/or Null to disable their use on you.

[lemming]

Yep, Fold Space isn't that useful for the ToT league in the murder hotel, though I have used it while GM hunting just to get the ghosts into the kill zone if needed (rarely)

 

For other items, it's sometimes the best way to counter some big strike that had a lot of KB involved...   (Hmm, meteor strike, then Fold to bring the survivors back...)

[Neiska]

2 hours ago, biostem said:

IMHO, if the rest of the team isn't expecting it or are just unfamiliar with the power, then it can lead to some confusion or frustration - kind of like folks using intangibility powers on enemies...

 I meant be flexible as the fold space user, not everyone else. 😆

[golstat2003]

8 hours ago, Laucianna said:

I've been using fold space for over a year now and never seen the dislike for it by anyone like I have Group fly, granted I use it to pull mobs away from mobs into a more central location to stop people all swarming two doors and being unable to click them. Not sure if I am getting SUPER lucky with having zero complaints about it as it gathers a bunch of scattered mobs into one central area to be nuked, which is better for everyone who uses AoEs.

But Fold Space 100% has it's uses in a team/league so it's better to let people know how to use it more effectively rather then say Group Fly or Dimension shifting enemies which only helps the player but affects the league 💛

 

I . . . too have never seen or experienced any problems with this power on teams. I must have been super lukcy all this time. Reading this thread is actually shocking to me. lol

[mistagoat]

My only beef with fold space is how it arranges baddies. Occasionally it'll nicely clump them up but more often it drops them in 1 long conga line. Just 1 long single file line and if you got a good number of baddies, that line is a good bit larger than a fire rain or ice patch or similar. I want to love it more but its more a novelty on the toons that I've taken it with.

[Lunar Ronin]

Well, if nothing else, between this thread and one of the Group Fly threads, at least now I know that I am not alone in disliking Fold Space... or rather how it's mostly used.

[lemming]

31 minutes ago, mistagoat said:

My only beef with fold space is how it arranges baddies. Occasionally it'll nicely clump them up but more often it drops them in 1 long conga line. Just 1 long single file line and if you got a good number of baddies, that line is a good bit larger than a fire rain or ice patch or similar. I want to love it more but its more a novelty on the toons that I've taken it with.

Yea, it's the same logic if you enter a base portal with other people.   You'll wind up with a conga line in the base because everyone is trying to occupy the same place.   Instead of moving people in one vector, it should randomize the direction away from the origin.

[lemming]

47 minutes ago, Krimson said:

I like it on Tankers. It revolutionizes herding. Run in the middle of four mobs and hit Fold Space and then stand there until clear. 

It's not bad with blasters with PBAOE nukes.   Especially with Praetorian stuff.

[Zappalina]

As the only tank on the team suddenly grabbing all the aggro having it on me and wanting it that way as it helps protect the squishies only to suddenly have them gone it's like well where ta f..k did they go to? Now I sometimes, ask that not happen and it's respected, I only ask if I am team lead and if people are dying.   I leave the team if it's annoying or I can't taunt fast enough usually it's not a problem but it can be. (not tf or trial tho).  If the game isn't enjoyable I leave what I'm doing and go find something that is, life is short, I got choices.

 

If I am team lead and not a tank, I ask who has that power and where they are going to stick the groups, like what's their rationale?  Because laying down aoes only to have them not realize or care that there are multiple aoes down, usually not only from me but other team mates,  I need to know where then to stick those aoes to do the most damage or debuff, I don't like to interrupt other peoples game play so can adjust my view and lay those aoes down where they are going to put the groups, usually it's been near a scrapper. Sometimes I ask this as non team lead as well.

 

In regards to just ToT - I had a controller plant/nature who continually had groups dropped on me and a few surrounding people where most of the teams were other places, I didn't understand the rationale but I did wonder if the person was griefing or just plain stupid.  No one died from it but it was odd.

Edited October 7 by Zappalina

[Clave Dark 5]

I've had it spoil many AoE attacks that my melee or even squishie toons were trying.  No warning, no "hey yall, here comes FS" or "I'm going to be using FS ok?" or anything.  It's a great power for making farming or soloing easier no doubt.  I don't complain on those teams, I just quit them.

[Excraft]

3 hours ago, Krimson said:

If I'm tanking and mobs vanish I assume everything is under control and I go find more mobs. 

 

I do the same, but this is digressing from the point of the thread. 

 

Main takeaways I'm seeing here are that it's not Fold Space itself, but how others are using it poorly and aren't communicating when using it.  @ZacKing hit the nail on the head here.

 

11 hours ago, ZacKing said:

Think of it like being on a playground playing with your toys and someone else steals them from you or you're out at a restaurant about to dig into your meal and someone comes and takes your plate away.  You often see people complaining about others venturing off on their own when on a team to fight mobs ahead of where the main group is.  This is why people do that.  They want to have fun fighting stuff.  If others are going to take that enjoyment away from them, purposefully or not, it's taking the fun away from others.

 

I think that's it exactly.  Using Fold Space in the ToT league where it isn't really needed is taking away fun from others.  Some people using it don't see that and can't put themselves in other people's shoes.  This is supposed to be a fun community event with everyone jumping in to have some fun fighting endless hordes of bad guys.  If you're using Fold Space to pull mobs off of other people, that's taking away something fun from them. 

 

So far most people I've encountered will stop using it when asked politely, but there have been a couple of people who are very rudely adamant about not using it.  Honestly, you really don't need it, but if you find you must, maybe take the advice folks have given in this thread and communicate to others in the league so they know what's going on.  No need for anyone to be rude.

[Shin Magmus]

16 hours ago, ZacKing said:

Think of it like being on a playground playing with your toys and someone else steals them from you or you're out at a restaurant about to dig into your meal and someone comes and takes your plate away.  You often see people complaining about others venturing off on their own when on a team to fight mobs ahead of where the main group is.  This is why people do that.  They want to have fun fighting stuff.  If others are going to take that enjoyment away from them, purposefully or not, it's taking the fun away from others.

     I like this part of the comment.  I just want to chime in and say that, as long as the Fold Space user stands in an intelligent position: using Fold Space is basically purely beneficial as it groups enemies together for everyone to AoE.  An example of doing this would be trying to teleport more enemies into the existing pile, in the corner where 2 doors meet and 10 enemies are already present.  That said, every single person here complaining about this concept of someone else "taking away enjoyment" better not have a single Energy Blast character, nor spam Meteor, and better be liberally using KBtoKD enhancements: otherwise we'd have some hypocrisy going on.

[Ghost]

3 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

     That said, every single person here complaining about this concept of someone else "taking away enjoyment" better not have a single Energy Blast character, nor spam Meteor, and better be liberally using KBtoKD enhancements: otherwise we'd have some hypocrisy going on.

FINALLY I agree with you on something.

[Lunar Ronin]

4 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

     I like this part of the comment.  I just want to chime in and say that, as long as the Fold Space user stands in an intelligent position: using Fold Space is basically purely beneficial as it groups enemies together for everyone to AoE.  An example of doing this would be trying to teleport more enemies into the existing pile, in the corner where 2 doors meet and 10 enemies are already present.  That said, every single person here complaining about this concept of someone else "taking away enjoyment" better not have a single Energy Blast character, nor spam Meteor, and better be liberally using KBtoKD enhancements: otherwise we'd have some hypocrisy going on.

 

The problem is that few Fold Space users do stand in an intelligent position.  People just know that Fold Space is "good," but don't know how nor why.  They use it willy nilly, either scattering mobs as a result or pull mobs away from melee teammates, or both.  As a result, it actually slows down team play instead of speeding it up.  Fold Space can be (and often is), just as bad as Energy Blast's Nova in effectively increasing time to defeat mobs.

Edited October 8 by Lunar Ronin

[Shin Magmus]

1 minute ago, Lunar Ronin said:

 

The problem is that few Fold Space users do stand in an intelligent position.  People just know that Fold Space is "good," but don't know how nor why.  They use it willy nilly, either scattering mobs as a result or pull mobs away from melee teammates, or both.  As a result, it actually slows down team play instead of speeding it up.  Fold Space can be just as bad as Energy Blast's Nova in effectively increasing time to defeat mobs.

     Unfortunately we can't hold players accountable for playing super duper badwrong; we can barely even point it out cus that's meanie weanie.  The bad Fold Space user and the Empath not-using Fortitude or Adrenaline Boost both pat themselves on the back, chanting over and over in their heads: "I'm helping."

[Gerswin]

I do not understand how why people have a problem with fold space.  It is a fantastic power.  I just finished a Tin Mage with a great team this morning where 4 of the 7 players used Fold Space nearly constantly, and we completed the TF in 7 minutes. There is a tremendous synergy with fold space and AOE control powers, not just damage. Tide pool, bonfire, tar patch, freezing rain, quicksand... all top tier powers if the mobs are clumped together, and fold space is light years faster at getting grouped mobs than taunting.  

 

It is also great for pulling mobs off of mission objectives like shadow cysts or destructible objects. Lots of places where mobs not required for mission completion can be dumped off the side of a cliff.  Overall, fold space and the teleport pool in general are more thought and reflex dependent than most of the other powers in the game,  and user skill makes much more of a difference.  I think this is a good thing, and I don't understand the hostility towards the power, except maybe a MM with fold space on auto 20 yards from a popular ToT door.

[Sanguinesun]

On 10/6/2024 at 10:57 PM, Excraft said:

I'm curious what everyone thinks about this particular topic.  Its something I've seen come up a few times now that the Halloween event is in full swing - players using Fold Space on ToT leagues teleporting mobs off of other players.  I've seen it happen quite a few times now where it's causing friction and grief among teammates on Leagues.

 

First, it appears there are a lot of players out there that don't know what Fold Space is or how it works, and they question in League chat why mobs are disappearing from around them.  Reactions to someone using Fold Space range from finding it utterly hilarious to getting pissed off and quitting the League.  Some have asked that it not be used while on the League.  Most everyone is polite and respectful and obliges and there's been a few who really were quite rude and refused to stop using it.

 

For me, I can see both sides here.  I've been ToT'ing with my Brutes and Tanks and have had someone teleport large mobs away from me.  We're all on the same team/league so we're all getting rewards whether I'm killing stuff or someone else is, so not a big deal for me.  I'll just move on to the next door.  Others apparently don't think it's all that funny.  I have seen some others get really angry about it and I can honestly understand their frustration.  We all like fighting stuff.  It's what all of us find fun and a big part of why we're playing.  Being engaged with a large mob only to have it pulled away from right in front of them is taking that fun away and enjoyment from someone else.

 

This Fold Space issue is along the lines of the whole use of Group Fly argument.  Some people like it and some people don't.  The question that comes up most is whether or not it's really needed.  At least to me, powers like Group Fly and Fold Space are situational.  If I had them, I'd be fine using it solo.  However, if I'm on a team and it's bothering someone else, I can adapt and oblige as I like to be courteous to fellow players.

 

Like I said, it doesn't really bother me but I can see how it bothers other people.  What's your take on Fold Space usage?  Is it ok/necessary to use on Leagues for ToTing or should it be used sparingly if at all?

 

Except the issue people are getting upset with in the ToT leagues in PI and Kalista Warf is that its 1 person who -NEVER- joins the leagues there and multiboxes their MM's -every year-  all day  and every day of the event for years now who then teleports away the EB's into the middle of their parked multiboxing mms to kill/tag.  

Edited October 8 by Sanguinesun

[lemming]

2 minutes ago, Sanguinesun said:

Except the issue people are getting upset with in the ToT leagues in PI and Kalista Warf is that its 1 person who -NEVER- joins the leagues there and multiboxes their MM's -every year-  all day  and every day of the event for years now who then teleports away the EB's into the middle of their parked multiboxing mms to kill/tag.  

I believe they're the reason that the update to the Code of Conduct was done.  Report them.

[Sanguinesun]

4 minutes ago, lemming said:

I believe they're the reason that the update to the Code of Conduct was done.  Report them.

 

People have been reporting them every day, multiple times a day since the CoC changed. People have been also complaining about it for as long on discord.

 

Its gotten to the point that this happening even this year since the update to the CoC that its less a reflection of their actions and more a reflection of the intentional inactions of the ones who had made it seem this individual would be held accountable this year but that's categorically not been the case.

[Shin Magmus]

4 minutes ago, Sanguinesun said:

 

People have been reporting them every day, multiple times a day since the CoC changed. People have been also complaining about it for as long on discord.

 

Its gotten to the point that this happening even this year since the update to the CoC that its less a reflection of their actions and more a reflection of the intentional inactions of the ones who had made it seem this individual would be held accountable this year but that's categorically not been the case.

I guess this is on Excel?

[Laucianna]

2 hours ago, Lunar Ronin said:

 

The problem is that few Fold Space users do stand in an intelligent position.  People just know that Fold Space is "good," but don't know how nor why.  They use it willy nilly, either scattering mobs as a result or pull mobs away from melee teammates, or both.  As a result, it actually slows down team play instead of speeding it up.  Fold Space can be (and often is), just as bad as Energy Blast's Nova in effectively increasing time to defeat mobs.

I would say there was a slight difference between say Fold Space, Nova, and Group fly being that in even for people not experienced they are still more likely to help the team with certain powers for instance if 3 people who aren't great at the game used the 3 powers it would look something like:

Fold Space - Will still neatly group up enemies to be nuked, albeit away from tank or location AoEs already used.
Nova - Will kill most lower tier mobs but scatter the rest to the wind away from tank or location AoEs.
Group Fly - The masterminds pets can fly and smidge better, but everyone who didn't visit Null is slower and some AT's can not use powers.

[tidge]

18 hours ago, Krimson said:

I like it on Tankers. It revolutionizes herding. Run in the middle of four mobs and hit Fold Space and then stand there until clear. 

 

I disagree, specifically with respect to Tankers.

 

I can completely understand why Fold Space seems appealing in theory, but in practice I don't recommend it.

 

The number one issue I have with it for a Tanker is the opportunity cost of having to take TWO other powers from the teleport pool to get Fold Space. I guarantee that there is at least one better pick that can be made to make the tanker better at tanking, even if a player has chosen to invest in the Teleportation pool.

 

I love Combat Teleport! My experience has been that if a Tanker takes CT, that they don't need to use Fold Space to be a good tanker! Of the other choices for pre-requisites, Teleport Target has to be slotted to be reliable (against single-target enemies) , and Teleport is the red-headed step-child of travel powers. These powers can hold some useful enhancement pieces, but that's making watery lemonade from lemons IMO.

 

Number two among the reasons I dislike Fold Space is its base 2-minute recharge time. A Tanker can cast a whole lotta Combat Teleports and Taunts in the time it takes Fold Space to recharge and animate.

 

Reason number three is the base 1.0 Accuracy. Any slots invested in Fold Space aren't going somewhere else in the build. Tankers can benefit from any number of single enhancement pieces, such as more Healing, more Resistances, more Recharge, more Recovery, more Regeneration, blah blah blah fishcakes, all that can come from single-slot investments in other powers. The power also requires a ToHit check, and has a target cap of 16. If the Tanker is having accuracy or ToHit debuffed. or is otherwise not reliably hitting all enemies, Fold Space becomes unreliable on top of being infrequently available.

 

I should note: I give Warshades a complete pass for taking/using Shadow Slip. Warshades have a significant number of powers that would otherwise be quite bad if they didn't have a method of guaranteeing some extra enemies in close proximity. It doesn't mean that the power could be less annoying on a Warshade, but many Warshade players make it a regular part of their rotation and it is much easier to know in advance if I am playing with a Warshade.

 

[Lunar Ronin]

2 minutes ago, Laucianna said:

I would say there was a slight difference between say Fold Space, Nova, and Group fly being that in even for people not experienced they are still more likely to help the team with certain powers for instance if 3 people who aren't great at the game used the 3 powers it would look something like:

Fold Space - Will still neatly group up enemies to be nuked, albeit away from tank or location AoEs already used.
Nova - Will kill most lower tier mobs but scatter the rest to the wind away from tank or location AoEs.
Group Fly - The masterminds pets can fly and smidge better, but everyone who didn't visit Null is slower and some AT's can not use powers.

 

Group Fly can be disabled in a minute and a half at level 1 with no travel powers.  You cannot disable someone else's Fold Space nor Nova.  They're not really comparable.