The ability to disable Group Fly/Teleport needs to be made into a command.

[Lunar Ronin]

1 hour ago, Jacktar said:

I never hear anybody moaning about going to seeNull to avoid be speed buffed but I probably just missed all the threads about that!

 

By level ten at the absolute latest on every character (and usually by level seven), I go to Pocket D to talk with Null the Gull to disable Speed Boost, Group Fly, Team Teleport, the pop-up travel power tray, Mystic Fortune, and to change my character's alignment to Rogue.  I mean, I could complain about someone using Speed Boost on me.  But that would be asinine, wouldn't it, as it would be on me for not disabling it.  So I just make sure to go to Pocket D to turn it off, in all of two minutes.

 

It's an amazing concept.

Edited November 4 by Lunar Ronin

[Owl Girl]

1 hour ago, Seed22 said:

You don’t know what these words mean by this very post you made. Please stop using them wrong

no u ❤️

[Owl Girl]

4 hours ago, macskull said:

I ain’t gonna read this whole thread but I’ve seen enough posts, so…

 

Sorry, Group Fly users. Expecting everyone else to go talk to an NPC (that you can’t talk to in TF mode) so that they aren’t affected by your power is textbook entitlement, right up there with indiscriminate knockback users and Team Teleporters.

i would suggest that there is Nothing wrong with feeling entitled to select any powers allowed in the game, while there is something seriously wrong with feeling entitled to control what powers other people pick and play especially when the devs went out of their way to provide an option for people that want to exclude themselves. the fact that GF users are in the minority doesn't change the fact that it's literally your own fault if You are ever under the effects of that power five minutes after character creation.

 

You can absolutely fix this problem easily without resorting to excluding players. which means that when You do exclude them, You are doing so on purpose and with malice.

[OverkillEngine]

The horse has been beaten into cheval burgers repeatedly. And unfortunately will continue to be minced so long as the dispute is not resolved adequately.

Simplest solution that is attainable under current observed engine limitations is to have Group Fly grant two versions of itself when selected as a power pick. (example mechanic: any powerset with an ammo swap power, travel pools granting more than one power per pick, etc)

Version 1 (the default) applies only to the caster and the caster's pets. (+Fly is a buff and buffs can have target filters - see Supremacy which does not apply to other player entities)

Version 2 applies to the caster and all friendlies in range.


Then the person using it can just pick on demand which version to use as appropriate for the situation. The main issue is persuading the Devs to put in the time to actually implement this.

Edited November 5 by OverkillEngine

[mistagoat]

Why are the Devs silent on this?? There is a new argument thread on this exact same topic every month or so. There exists in this game a power that is so divisive that it causes arguments and exclusion both in game and out and the Devs have no thoughts on the topic? If there is 1 area of the game deserving of Dev time it would be for the things that have a significant negative impact on the game and I think GF more than fits that description. Null was a stopgap, please, I'm begging you, spend some time on this to find something better and plunge the dagger into the heart of these threads once and for all.

[Ghost]

1 hour ago, mistagoat said:

Why are the Devs silent on this?? There is a new argument thread on this exact same topic every month or so. There exists in this game a power that is so divisive that it causes arguments and exclusion both in game and out and the Devs have no thoughts on the topic? If there is 1 area of the game deserving of Dev time it would be for the things that have a significant negative impact on the game and I think GF more than fits that description. Null was a stopgap, please, I'm begging you, spend some time on this to find something better and plunge the dagger into the heart of these threads once and for all.

Devs are smart not to come on here and get into a discussion that will ultimately turn into an argument.

If they want to/can do something - they will

If they can’t/don’t want to - they won’t.

 

In the meantime, if you use GF and join a team in which you are asked to turn it off by the leader,  you have 2 options

1. Turn it off

2. Say HELL NO and get kicked.

The choice is yours.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 5 by Ghost

[Lunar Ronin]

21 minutes ago, Ghost said:

In the meantime, if you use GF and join a team in which you are asked to turn it off by the leader,  you have 2 options

1. Turn it off

2. Say HELL NO and get kicked.

The choice is yours.

 

 

 

 

 

You forgot the third option - rate the team leader one star, and then politely leave the team.

[r0y]

Would be great if there was a Power called "Pet Fly" as most folks who take it really only do so their pets fly with them (e.g., Masterminds).

[Seed22]

34 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Devs are smart not to come on here and get into a discussion that will ultimately turn into an argument.

If they want to/can do something - they will

If they can’t/don’t want to - they won’t.

 

In the meantime, if you use GF and join a team in which you are asked to turn it off by the leader,  you have 2 options

1. Turn it off

2. Say HELL NO and get kicked.

The choice is yours.

 

 

 

 

Exactly this. A lot of people defending using GF when explicitly asked not to by the team lead believe they are entitled to a team. They fuck around, I love it when they find out via a kick. If a GF user joins my team and pulls this braindead shit it's a kick from me.

[Oklahoman]

I ain't reading a whole other thread on Group Fly. It sucks, but right now if Group Fly bothers you, you have to go to Null the Gull as soon as you can. That's your best solution for now.

 

I hope we can fix Group Fly. At the very least, I'd love a tab in the character creator that let's you turn on/off all the Null the Gull stuff during the creation process. I'd almost be willing to bet that we'll get an additional currency before we see Group Fly fixed, though.

[srmalloy]

22 hours ago, Gravitus said:

That's like saying if weather causes me to wreck my car and I didn't have full coverage insurance, I'm being tied down.... No, you know that bad weather is a thing, we can't get rid of bad weather, and its on you if you weren't properly insured.

@BEGIN(Sarcasm)

I see... so we should petition the HC staff to update the game so that any character that has taken Group Fly as a power choice automatically has "I HAVE GROUP FLY" floating in bright yellow letters over their head to warn everyone that they team with, because it's obviously your fault that you don't microscopically examine the power choices of every person you team with, and were surprised when they turned on Group Fly.

@END(Sarcasm)

[Excraft]

22 hours ago, ZacKing said:

As an alternative, I'd suggest making the couple of options (not all) Null has available through trainers as well. 

 

I like this idea best.  Give trainers the same options Null has with exception of alignment switching.  It seems the simplest solution.  Players have the options right out of the tutorial when they first visit Miss Liberty and the options would be accessible while on a TF since you can talk to trainers running them. 

[megaericzero]

7 hours ago, mistagoat said:

Why are the Devs silent on this??

They're kind of not, though? They just don't chime in every time the thread is cloned or resurrected.

 

It's been mentioned by devs in the past (can't remember whether Paragon and/or Homecoming) that Null is a workaround because the options UI can't do his functions. The Homecoming team has also mentioned on other topics that they're not keen on MacGuyver solutions.

[Gravitus]

On 11/5/2024 at 10:07 AM, srmalloy said:

@BEGIN(Sarcasm)

I see... so we should petition the HC staff to update the game so that any character that has taken Group Fly as a power choice automatically has "I HAVE GROUP FLY" floating in bright yellow letters over their head to warn everyone that they team with, because it's obviously your fault that you don't microscopically examine the power choices of every person you team with, and were surprised when they turned on Group Fly.

@END(Sarcasm)

Amazing how you can miss the mark by a mile. Let me help you. You know GF is a thing, you can't get rid of GF, so utilize the solution the devs made for you before you get effected. This analogy isn't hard. 

Edited November 7 by Gravitus

[Ukase]

To me, the easiest solution is to simply make fly a pet inherent. Pets shouldn't need their "master" to have group fly. If the master can fly, the pet should also be able to fly. Why should an MM, who prefers fly to super speed, have to use a power pick just to get their pets with them? 

 

If you want to read about my thoughts, look in this spoiler. 

 

Spoiler

I'm no MM expert. I've got one at 50. None at level 7 waiting for some opportunity. Just the one. I never took group fly, because I never took fly. I had a jet pack for verticals, and my pets still followed me on MSRs and such. Always a trip to see the big guy roll in on a chopper motorcycle. 

Because I'm not a fan of MMs, I don't see all sides of this. I know I despise being "flown" by group fly because often, where the player that is using group fly is in an awful position for me to do what I need to do. I often wonder what they are doing up there, because the action is on the ground. But hey, play how you play. It's annoyed me enough that like so many of us, I just go to pocket D to:
1. Get the explore to unlock the zone for lrtp
2. Remove that temp travel bar
3. Always accept mystic fortune
4. Make me immune to group fly

Every now and then, I'll be a little fuzzy on if I've done this, because lately, I've been on a delete tour, looking at older characters and deciding if I want to keep them. Sometimes I find myself keeping them and then start playing them and can't recall if I've already done the PD routine with them. 

While I personally find Group Fly to be a clear sign of a player that my in-game preferences don't align with theirs, I think they have every right to use that power just like every energy blaster has a right to enhance kb and not piss away a slot just so my scrappers aren't inconvenienced. Do I like it when the energy blaster knocks npcs out of my brutes burn patch? I do not. 
But, I DO like it when they knock npcs away from my corruptor who's trying to cast a buff here and there and didn't see the nasty lt. freak sneak up on me. 

Candidly, any player that complains about how another player plays (unless it's used deliberately to troll, like ..what's that called..Dimension shift, where you can't damage the mobs?) I just don't have a lot of stomach for that. 
Eventually, when these MMs and these other characters with KB get around to trying out melee characters, they will learn that there are other ways to get things done. In some cases, better ways. 
Until then, let's not rip the curtain of information open for them too fast. Give them a chance to learn it themselves, and then they don't dig in their heels and cover their ears. 

 

[srmalloy]

6 hours ago, Gravitus said:

Amazing how you can miss the mark by a mile. Let me help you. You know GF is a thing, you can't get rid of GF, so utilize the solution the devs made for you before you get effected. This analogy isn't hard. 

Let me help you see the other side. We all know Group Fly is a thing, we all know before we pick it that it affects others against their will, and we take it anyway, knowing in advance that it forces people to go out of their way to have their character configuration tweaked to become unaffected by your decision to impose an unwanted movement condition on them, potentially disabling one or more of their powers, because it's more convenient for you not to care about negative effects on others, simply because there is a workaround in place that means you don't have to care about it.

[Owl Girl]

3 hours ago, srmalloy said:

Let me help you see the other side. We all know Group Fly is a thing, we all know before we pick it that it affects others against their will, and we take it anyway, knowing in advance that it forces people to go out of their way to have their character configuration tweaked to become unaffected by your decision to impose an unwanted movement condition on them, potentially disabling one or more of their powers, because it's more convenient for you not to care about negative effects on others, simply because there is a workaround in place that means you don't have to care about it.

except that the universal CoH symbol of consenting to GF is not turning it off with Null. if You don't do that, then it's perfectly reasonable to presume that You love GF and want to be under its effects as much as possible.

 

most people that hate GF seem to be veterans that know an awful lot about the game so it's a bit silly to pretend that anybody except the rankest of new arrivals is being "forced" to endure anything. try to exercise your agency in a way that doesn't provoke You to exclude people. or don't! but it would be refreshing if we could drop the dishonest argument that GF haters are being forced to do anything, since in fact they are actually trying to force their own preferences amd play style on others. at the least try to be honest ❤️

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

Let's not go blowing each other's heads off consensually, virtually, or otherwise.

 

B.E.T.E.O.

[Greycat]

On 11/7/2024 at 2:54 PM, srmalloy said:

Let me help you see the other side. We all know Group Fly is a thing, we all know before we pick it that it affects others against their will

Other powers that affect others against their will:

Transfusion

Increase Density

Speed Boost

Inertial Reduction

Transference

Fulcrum Shift

Healing Aura

Heal Other

Absorb Pain

Fortitude

Recovery AUra

Regeneration Aura

Adrenalin Boost

O2 Boost

Steamy Mist

(Can make an argument for Hurricane, given visual effects and mob placement being affected.)

Deflection Shield

Insulation Shield

DIspersion Bubble

Damping Bubble

Assault

Tactics

Vengeance

Warmth

Thermal Shield

Cauterize

Plasma Shield

Thaw

Forge

Tangentally, powers like Fold Space and Wormhole

 

.... and the list can go on and on..

 

I know, nobody complains about a heal... except when things come up that make them problematic (remember Defiance 1.0? There are also other powers that give a boost depending on your lower health.) How about shields? That's a common one. Accuracy buffs? If it was buffing Tohit, then yes, that did impose an unwanted buff if it brought my blasters into Fast Snipe, before that was reworked (and I still long for a "disable fast snipe" IO.)

 

Hell, Sonic Resonance was making people physically ill before the graphics were finally reworked. That was definitely against their will.

 

And yes, arguments pop up (or used to at least) where people *do not want to be buffed at all,* including drive-by buffings, and will complain loud and long about it because it affects them and how well (or not) they can handle the fights they're in.

 

So... "Affecting others against their will" - how far do you want to take that argument?

 

On 11/7/2024 at 2:54 PM, srmalloy said:

, knowing in advance that it forces people to go out of their way to have their character configuration tweaked to become unaffected by your decision to impose an unwanted movement condition on them,

 

And  yet nobody's mentioning Speed Boost here, which (along with team teleport) is also explicitly listed in Null because of the "unwanted movement condition." They just quietly go and see Null.

 

I'm not against making it easier to turn Group Fly off for people. Though the last time I suggested "Hey, put Null in teh zones where people gather for raids, since leaving those zones might cost you a spot if the zone fills" I had reactions that apparently equated it with barbecuing babies and kicking puppies. But this just doesn't really fly (so to speak) as an argument.

 

3 hours ago, srmalloy said:

Failure to do something is not automatically consent to its opposite By reductio ad absurdem of your argument, you have not requested that I not<comment about hypothetical threat,> so you have clearly consented to my doing that.

 

We have laws against that and punishments for the people who do it. That seems like a universal "Society as a whole has agreed not to consent to it."

Edited November 11 by Greycat

[Gerswin]

On 11/7/2024 at 3:54 PM, srmalloy said:

Let me help you see the other side. We all know Group Fly is a thing, we all know before we pick it that it affects others against their will, and we take it anyway, knowing in advance that it forces people to go out of their way to have their character configuration tweaked to become unaffected by your decision to impose an unwanted movement condition on them, potentially disabling one or more of their powers, because it's more convenient for you not to care about negative effects on others, simply because there is a workaround in place that means you don't have to care about it.

 

The simple workaround that I use is putting their account on gignore. I only get inconvenienced once.

[Laucianna]

18 hours ago, Greycat said:

Transfusion

Increase Density

Speed Boost

Inertial Reduction

Transference

Fulcrum Shift

Healing Aura

Heal Other

Absorb Pain

Fortitude

Recovery AUra

Regeneration Aura

Adrenalin Boost

O2 Boost

Steamy Mist

(Can make an argument for Hurricane, given visual effects and mob placement being affected.)

Deflection Shield

Insulation Shield

DIspersion Bubble

Damping Bubble

Assault

Tactics

Vengeance

Warmth

Thermal Shield

Cauterize

Plasma Shield

Thaw

Forge

I will say all of these do BUFF/HEAL the target too, something Group Fly does not do and as mentioned can actually slow you down 😄

[Nerio72]

I think people are getting to caught up in who's "right" and who's "wrong" here.

 

Would it hurt to have a different way to opt out of this power? It doesn't matter if you think there is already a way to do it, does it hurt to have ANOTHER way to do it? Because there are reasons apparently to have this power for certain content. Should people who want it solely for that content have to go back to Null every time they want to turn it back off for regular content?

 

I agree with points from both sides of this debate and I think maybe focusing on the valid points instead of pointing fingers would be more helpful. (Damn, was trying to work "point" into that sentence one more time! 😉)

 

I'm wondering if a checkbox in Settings for all of that would work, but that might not be possible.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Nerio72 said:

I think people are getting to caught up in who's "right" and who's "wrong" here.

 

Would it hurt to have a different way to opt out of this power? It doesn't matter if you think there is already a way to do it, does it hurt to have ANOTHER way to do it? Because there are reasons apparently to have this power for certain content. Should people who want it solely for that content have to go back to Null every time they want to turn it back off for regular content?

 

I agree with points from both sides of this debate and I think maybe focusing on the valid points instead of pointing fingers would be more helpful. (Damn, was trying to work "point" into that sentence one more time! 😉)

 

I'm wondering if a checkbox in Settings for all of that would work, but that might not be possible.

 

On 11/3/2024 at 7:37 PM, Rudra said:

Null the Gull gives characters a power that makes them unaffected by Group Fly. That was the only way to get Group Fly to not affect us. And we aren't going to be given a command that gives us powers.

 There is your answer.

[Nerio72]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

 There is your answer.

What is that the answer to?

[Nerio72]

If you were referring to my

11 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I'm wondering if a checkbox in Settings for all of that would work, but that might not be possible.

Then that does not answer it. I didn't suggest a command to give us a power.