Best Offense, Defense, and Support

[Zect]

15 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

You're more than welcome to do the test yourself and show how Rad outdoes any other armor. 

 

 

 

Oh, it's just the old 801 thread; I thought you'd invented some new test or methodology to gauge armor sets with.

 

For the uninitiated, the linked thread is specifically about 801.A, one of a series of high-difficulty AE missions made before 'hard' mode was a thing to challenge players. The 801.x series has incoming dps and debuffs that are much higher than you will ever expect to see in anything made by a dev. Per the thread, "801.A is 5k sustained dps, with frequent 10k dps bursts, and some 25+k dps bursts, along with -300 defense, -300 resist, -100 to-hit, -endurance, -recovery, -recharge, and just about everything else you can imagine." The higher-difficulty 801s are also all-EB, which invalidates certain strategies and defenses.

 

For comparison, most enemy groups in the 'normal' game at +4x8 do not do more than 1.3-1.5k dps. They can't, because if you raise incoming dps too high, you start making it difficult for the unarmored AT's to play, and that has never been Paragon's design direction. (And I'm reasonably sure, Homecoming's; though I can't speak for either.) The main exception are hardmode mobs. I have also observed Linea play in person, and their playstyle is very different from that of your usual coher. Linea is a lot more like Batman, and will use every resource available. This includes resources that some players consider verboten, like amps and base buffs.

 

So what this test proves is, that in a specific AE mission under incoming dps and debuffs far in excess of what you will encounter in just about any reasonable situation, Batman playing a shield/DM or /rad will be the toughest.

 

None of this is to say I disagree with you; under the conditions described, your conclusion is the accurate one. Rather, my point is to ask the typical audience for this kind of thread - the usual forumite fretting about which armor set is the best/most optimized etc: 1) do you think the threat environment and mission profile described above applies to you, and 2) do you think you are Batman, or at least Robin? If not, your considerations may be very different. If yes, Linea's thread has builds for you.

[Tankshock]

1 hour ago, Without_Pause said:

You're more than welcome to do the test yourself and show how Rad outdoes any other armor. 

 

 

So it's better in an incredibly specific AE mish?  I think you're missing the point here.  There is no doubt that you can create a situation where Shield is best.  It's a great set. 

[Snarky]

13 minutes ago, Tankshock said:

So it's better in an incredibly specific AE mish?  I think you're missing the point here.  There is no doubt that you can create a situation where Shield is best.  It's a great set. 

801 is (as are all) a very specific type of mission.  but it has the sole focus of testing EVERYTHING.  think a chess program turned to max.  just looking for weak spots

[shortguy on indom]

• IS IT THE STRENGTH OF THE STREAM OR COMPLETE EMPTYING WHICH IS MORE BETTER?

[Tankshock]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

801 is (as are all) a very specific type of mission.  but it has the sole focus of testing EVERYTHING.  think a chess program turned to max.  just looking for weak spots

I see its use.  Just not applicable to playing the game, imo.  Not to mention, the devil is in the details.  Minor changes in power combos are significant.

Knowing which unsupported set can last longest against 20 Lord Recluse without a break doesn't really interest me.   I've had more incarnate SD than Rad.  They don't play as uber as Rad/MA.  Studies support my gut on this.  😉 

[Snarky]

55 minutes ago, Tankshock said:

I see its use.  Just not applicable to playing the game, imo.  Not to mention, the devil is in the details.  Minor changes in power combos are significant.

Knowing which unsupported set can last longest against 20 Lord Recluse without a break doesn't really interest me.   I've had more incarnate SD than Rad.  They don't play as uber as Rad/MA.  Studies support my gut on this.  😉 

i will concede the point.  i hate 801 myself, and am uninterested in the topic except as a place to scrawl my usual graffiti.  cheers and happy turkey slaughter day.  (now there is an AE map we need....)

[Ukase]

3 hours ago, shortguy on indom said:

• IS IT THE STRENGTH OF THE STREAM OR COMPLETE EMPTYING WHICH IS MORE BETTER?

Depends on how much beer I've had and how close I am to passing out. 

[DoctorDitko]

I can't speak to the Offense or Defense categories, but I've been maining a Plants/Nature toon, and it's got insane levels of Support.

Seriously, as an Ill/Rad from before it was meta, this character has CRAZY buffs and debuffs.

 

Would you kindly publish to https://arxiv.org

so we can attempt to replicate your results?

[Tankshock]

Great combo, Plant is so versatile, Creepers both looks and is amazing.

 

Unfortunately I can't publish there until the court case is settled. I called them out for AI scraping. They tried to get me to settle, but principals are more important than money.

[Maelwys]

10 hours ago, Tankshock said:

principals are more important than money.

The one I used to work for considered money to be more important than most of the faculty...


 

Edited November 29 by Maelwys

[Tankshock]

37 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

The one I used to work for considered money to be more important than most of the faculty...


 

I've left schools for that reason.  Luckily most of them are pretty good.

[WuTang]

I read all three pages....and have come to this conclusion.

 

Tankshock is a winker....never trust a winker.

[Tankshock]

27 minutes ago, WuTang said:

I read all three pages....and have come to this conclusion.

 

Tankshock is a winker....never trust a winker.

Nice. 😉

 

[DarknessEternal]

On 11/27/2024 at 8:31 AM, Uun said:

If you're relying on procs for -res, then DP isn't the cause. There are any number of sets that can be similarly slotted with -res procs (Beam, Rad, Seismic, Water).

 

On top of it, you're pairing it with Time, which is nowhere near the best for -res (nor is it particularly good for -regen). 

Debuffing resistance is pointless anyway.  AVs and GMs don't really get debuffed by it, and nothing else lives more than seconds.

[Tankshock]

1 hour ago, DarknessEternal said:

Debuffing resistance is pointless anyway.  AVs and GMs don't really get debuffed by it, and nothing else lives more than seconds.

 

See, this is why no one trusts the internet.  

[DarknessEternal]

Resistance debuffs effect level 50 AVs at .15 effectiveness.  It gets worse as they go up in level.

[Uun]

5 minutes ago, DarknessEternal said:

Resistance debuffs effect level 50 AVs at .15 effectiveness.  It gets worse as they go up in level.

AV debuff resistance does not include resistance debuffs. Resistance debuffs are only resisted by damage resistance. Each AV resists different damage types.

 

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Archvillain_Resistance

 

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Resistance_(Mechanics)

[Psyonico]

21 minutes ago, DarknessEternal said:

Resistance debuffs effect level 50 AVs at .15 effectiveness.  It gets worse as they go up in level.

To my knowledge, AVs don't have inherent resistance to resistance debuffs beyond whatever resistance to damage they have.

[Jacke]

45 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

To my knowledge, AVs don't have inherent resistance to resistance debuffs beyond whatever resistance to damage they have.

 

I think it's the same as other Mobs:

• Based upon Level difference, adjust for Purple Patch.
• Resistance Debuffs are Resisted by the Target's Resistance.
  • Effectively makes a Resistance Debuff (after Purple Patch) a % Damage increase outside of the Enhancement System.

[shortguy on indom]

On 12/2/2024 at 5:37 PM, Uun said:

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Resistance_(Mechanics)

• FORMULA AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE IS MISSING SOMETHING:  PURPLE PATCH MODIFIER.

[Skyhawke]

The best offense is a good defense, but if you're offensive to your support they'll get defensive and less supportive which weakens the offense of your defense rendering the incoming support more offensive than supportive which makes your offense AND defense become more defensive and less supportive of your now defensive support which cause the support to get offensive. Savvy?

[ZemX]

Unless the target is literally immune to damage resistance debuffs, then a 20% res debuff like Achilles Heel will always result in you dealing 20% more damage as compared to your damage output against that target prior to the debuff.  Doesn't matter who the target is.  Lowly minion or beefy AV.  This seems counter-intuitive because we know resistance resists resistance debuffs and also higher level targets get purple patch reductions.... but all of those same reductions apply to the damage you were dealing as well, so the net increase in before/after debuff damage... ends up being that same 20%.

 

e.g. If target has 50% total damage resistance from res and purple patch combined, then it is taking 50% of the nominal damage from your attacks.  It also takes only 10% debuff from that Achilles, so it ends up with 40% total resistance after the debuff meaning now you're dealing 60% nominal damage.   60% is... 20% better damage than 50%.   🤪

[Linea]

On 11/27/2024 at 4:16 PM, Snarky said:

801 ... has the sole focus of testing EVERYTHING. ...  just looking for weak spots

That's it in a nutshell.  If you want the overall strongest armor against anything that will ever get thrown at you ever.   That doesn't mean the resulting armor will be strongest in every situation, it absolutely will not.  On the other hand, learning your weaknesses, knowing them well, and knowing how to mitigate them, is extremely useful.

 

If you can solo 801.2, then you can handle almost anything the regular game throws at you.

If you can solo survive 801.5, then you are probably safe to main-tank 4-Star or solo 1-star.

If you want to solo 2-star or 3-star, then you may need to be able to survive 801.6 or 801.7.

 

On 11/27/2024 at 3:58 PM, Zect said:

... that are much higher than you will ever expect to see in anything made by a dev.

The devs will NEVER go beyond 801.7 difficulty, and it's probably more fair to say official dev content will top out at a max of 801.6.  801.7 is just past the breaking point in game math terms.  801.6 is just under the breaking point in game math.   The devs will not push past that point, instead you should expect other mechanics like the targeting circles, and mini-games, and things like that.  The game math, base baked in from the past century, literally starts breaking at that point between 801.6 and 801.7.

 

That said, the math could be un-broken, by creating an RDR stat and distributing that to armors in the same way DDR is distributed.  However, that would also be a MAJOR and GAME BREAKING change to all the squishies and armors that are so used to effectively getting RDR for free.  So don't expect that to ever happen.  It probably should have happened 20 years ago, but that cat is well out of the bag and isn't going back in.

 

 

[Neiska]

IMO, what’s “the best” greatly depends on the rest of the team makeup, the activity in question, and perhaps most importantly, player skill and knowledge.

 

What powers you have and how much you spent is moot if you don’t have any clue what you are doing or how to play it, and how to synergies with your team. 
 

If we are talking the hardest content here, maximum difficulty, it really isn’t about “you” alone, but how the team plays together.

 

And personally, the harder content I’m doing, the more I tend to favor debuffs. Just a personal preference mind you, as the right debuffs are king in that kind of content.

[shortguy on indom]

4 hours ago, ZemX said:

Unless the target is literally immune to damage resistance debuffs, then a 20% res debuff like Achilles Heel will always result in you dealing 20% more damage as compared to your damage output against that target prior to the debuff.

• ONLY IF THE PURPLE PATCH MODIFIER HAPPENS TO BE 1.  IF ITS DIFFERENT, ITS NOT 20%.

4 hours ago, ZemX said:

e.g. If target has 50% total damage resistance from res and purple patch combined, then it is taking 50% of the nominal damage from your attacks.  It also takes only 10% debuff from that Achilles, so it ends up with 40% total resistance after the debuff meaning now you're dealing 60% nominal damage.   60% is... 20% better damage than 50%.   🤪

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