Damage vs Blaster - not much difference

[Diantane]

Went to MIDS and added up all of attacking powers to get a total to see which did the most damage:

 

1) Psychic - 951.28

2) Fire - 941.55

3) Energy - 937.21

 

But then I wondered if a Blaster would be worth it -- Their Psychic was only 1,002.72

50 more damage not worth having with no defense.

[FupDup]

Yes and no. 

 

For most attacks, the base damage is indeed very similar because the Sentinel ranged damage modifier is only slightly lower than the Blaster one. Specifically, you only lose 2.5% DPA on most Sent powers compared to Blaster versions (snipe replacements and nukes have more variance). 

 

However, Blasters do have a few tricks to make the gap wider. They've got a stacking damage buff via Defiance, a higher max damage cap (admittedly not a super common thing to hit even with the lower Sentinel cap), stronger snipe attacks on average (most Sent replacements are a fair bit weaker, but Elec and Storm are actually stronger in this regard), and a wider variety of melee attacks to supplement their ranged attacks with. To be fair, Sents do have Vulnerability and their stun/mezz attacks actually do damage (unlike most Blaster versions, i.e. Tesla Cage), but that's not enough to stop the gap from widening. 

 

So really, the moral of the story is that Blasters are generally going to do more damage than the Sentinel using similar sets, but the Sent's damage is still high enough to be a viable and fun experience outside of pinnacle sweatlord stuff like HM*4. 

[Maelwys]

[Diantane]

I didn't know that about Blasters - thanks

Edited December 17 by Diantane

[Diantane]

1 hour ago, FupDup said:

Yes and no. 

 

For most attacks, the base damage is indeed very similar because the Sentinel ranged damage modifier is only slightly lower than the Blaster one. Specifically, you only lose 2.5% DPA on most Sent powers compared to Blaster versions (snipe replacements and nukes have more variance). 

 

However, Blasters do have a few tricks to make the gap wider. They've got a stacking damage buff via Defiance, a higher max damage cap (admittedly not a super common thing to hit even with the lower Sentinel cap), stronger snipe attacks on average (most Sent replacements are a fair bit weaker, but Elec and Storm are actually stronger in this regard), and a wider variety of melee attacks to supplement their ranged attacks with. To be fair, Sents do have Vulnerability and their stun/mezz attacks actually do damage (unlike most Blaster versions, i.e. Tesla Cage), but that's not enough to stop the gap from widening. 

 

So really, the moral of the story is that Blasters are generally going to do more damage than the Sentinel using similar sets, but the Sent's damage is still high enough to be a viable and fun experience outside of pinnacle sweatlord stuff like HM*4. 

 

I liked the electric on sentinels all except for the tier 9 attack. Takes almost three seconds  to cast (too much for what you get).

[FupDup]

Do keep in mind I'm not trying to steer anyone away from the AT, quite the opposite even. I just wanted to set the record straight and explain all the fine details so people can make informed decisions. 

 

For Electric Blast in particular, that set is a very extreme outlier that is almost flat out better on Sentinels than Blasters. Not only because of the Tesla Cage thing, but also because Zapping Bolt actually has higher DPA than the Blaster quicksnipe (Storm Blast is the only other case like this). And I could argue that the fast nuke normalization benefits Thunderous Blast more than most nukes because it normally has a very slow recharge on other ATs. 

 

Unfortunately, while some sets got some nice unique toys like that, some are kind of just meh and some are downright shit (i.e. Archery, Ice). I wish that all primaries and secondaries got the unique treatment we see in Elec Blast, SR, and Invuln. 

Edited December 17 by FupDup

[biostem]

It's also important to keep in mind that all blasters get some sort of "sustain ability" and additional sources of damage in their secondary, while only some sentinel secondaries offer additional end/recovery or other such damage boosting abilities, (and that's not including the greater number of AoEs and the higher target caps blasters get).

[Maelwys]

6 hours ago, biostem said:

 blasters get...additional sources of damage in their secondary

 

THIS.

 

(Also the whole actually being able to shoot things from >60ft away thing)

 

Whilst the OP has a history of ignoring Secondary Powersets, Blasters Secondary Powersets are a defining part of the AT. There is a very good reason that "Blappers" became so popular many years ago (even prior to being able to softcap S/L defense via IOs!). I'd even argue that ignoring a Blaster's Secondary is like ignoring a Defender's Primary.

 

Looking at the offensive blast powersets in isolation across multiple ATs simply does not work unless you're purposely trying to compare apples to zebra crossings 🙈 🙉

[Sovera]

8 hours ago, Diantane said:

 

I liked the electric on sentinels all except for the tier 9 attack. Takes almost three seconds  to cast (too much for what you get).

 

What you get is:

- A big burst of ranged AoE damage which makes it perfect to open combat with before the mobs even notice you. Combined with Aim + Gaussian it will kill most minions while leveling.

- A big sapping effect on the mobs (at least half an endurance bar) which helps the Elec melee mechanic of doing more damage the lower the enemy has their endurance bar.

 

Add three damage procs (at least) to the nuke and aim to maximize damage and recharge and it'll boost the power's damage by around 30%.

 

 

The world will not end if you don't take the nuke, and the mobs will still be defeated, but it will not make sense not to take it and use it as a opener.

[TTRPGWhiz]

Now add up all the damage from the secondary power sets.

[Maelwys]

16 minutes ago, TTRPGWhiz said:

Now add up all the damage from the secondary power sets.

[Riverdusk]

Secondaries are a big one.  Right along side that to me are the target caps, which are much lower on a sent.  Not a big deal if you are soloing and aren't cranking up the mob size too much, but if you are teaming or turning it up to x8 while solo, it is noticeable.  

 

I still actually prefer sents though as I just find them a smoother more enjoyable leveling experience.

[Uun]

Sentinels get lower target caps than blasters on their AoEs and cones (10 vs 16 on AoEs and 6 vs 10 on cones).

 

Sentinel T9s have a smaller radius (20 ft vs 25 ft), lower damage scale and shorter recharge.

 

Sentinel attacks have a shorter range than their blaster counterparts (i.e., 60 ft vs 80 ft).

[Without_Pause]

1 minute ago, Uun said:

Sentinels get lower target caps than blasters on their AoEs and cones (10 vs 16 on AoEs and 6 vs 10 on cones).

 

Sentinel T9s have a smaller radius (20 ft vs 25 ft), lower damage scale and shorter recharge.

 

Sentinel attacks have a shorter range than their blaster counterparts (i.e., 60 ft vs 80 ft).

I was essentially typing this out when you posted it before I did. Saying Sents are close to Blaster damage is sheer ignorance. 

Edited December 17 by Without_Pause

[TTRPGWhiz]

7 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

I was essentially typing this out when you posted it before I did. Saying Sents are close to Blaster damage is sheer ignorance. 

Consider the sauce.

[Mack008]

In my head, Sentinels are about 85% of Blasters when it comes to inflicting damage, for all the reasons mentioned above (Defiance, damage multiplier, damage cap, secondaries, AoE limits...). 

 

But Blasters have to worry about things like being Mez'd where Sentinels don't.  And while a Blaster can get its defenses beefed up via set bonuses, it's work and costs time/influence.

 

I'm a fan of both classes, and go back and forth on which I'd rather play.

[Hjarki]

There are quite a few subtle differences that give specific builds for Sentinel a raison d'etre.

 

Consider Vulnerability. While this is often viewed as a standard -resist debuff, it actually debuffs resistances to debuffs as well. So when you combine it with Beam's -regen or Electric's -end, it makes these effects hit much harder - especially on AV/GM.

 

Cones for Sentinels are often subtly better or worse. The shorter range on Cones like Piercing Beam and Piercing Shot mean that your Annihilation -res (and others) proc will hit much more often than it would for a Blaster due to the better area  factor. Likewise, Sentinels have an easier time piling on +range from ATOs and secondaries, so their standard Cones (which generally do not suffer a range penalty) often hit larger areas.

 

Ultimates like Thunderous Blast and Category Five where damage isn't the primary purpose of the ultimate benefit greatly from the reduced recharge, enabling them to be used every spawn or with much higher uptime than Blasters. Conventional ultimates perform much better with procs than standard Blaster ultimates due to higher cyclic rate without penalizing proc chance (the Blaster ultimates are normally way over-max for proc chance). That Armageddon + Unbreakable Constraint Atomic Blast is about 50% more dps on a Sentinel vs. a Blaster.

 

The Sentinel secondaries also vary a great deal in what they provide for your primary. For example, Stone Armor provides a boost of about 23 dps to your single target rotation - which will normally be a lot better than what you'd get from something like Devices +20% damage.

 

With that being said, normally you're not building a Sentinel to maximize pylon dps. You're building them because they allow you some useful utility better than what you'd likely receive from a Blaster or Scrapper.

[drbuzzard]

Blasters clearly do more damage than sentinels. I often think it gets overhyped a bit, but the AOE gap is pretty big and that's more of what drives it than anything else. Defiance when it's at full tilt is about 30% damage boost. Couple this with the effects of good secondary attacks (which means some secondaries, certainly not all) and build up, and they clearly do more damage. At the high end of players, people are fast enough on the inspirations and generally run all the boosts, so blasters are plenty survivable enough that the sentinel edge in this regard isn't really necessary (not to mention that on hard mode teams barrier coordination and mandatory support component means your own defenses are of lesser consequence). It is funny, though, that sentinels are not at all wanted on those top end teams, though vulnerability is one of the best debuffs in the game and they do have the same damage caps as blasters (500%) and nearly the same scalar (1.1 vs. 1.125)  while those teams always run with kins and function mostly at the damage cap. Hence the defiance edge vanishes, and it comes down to AOE caps and the good secondary attacks. Against a tough target I would imagine replacing a single blaster with a sentinel wouldn't be a bad idea just for vulnerability being spammed. Vulnerability being immune to the purple patch is a bigger deal than most recognize. 

 

Personally I like sentinels because I'm not quick on the inspiration use, and I often let the boosts expire. I also don't much care for the upper end of hard mode content, so it doesn't really matter. Truth be told, for a new player without a lot of resources, sentinels are likely a much better choice than a blaster. They are simply easier. 

[drbuzzard]

Oh, one other thing I've been thinking of. The performance bands of sets in an AT can be pretty wide. The best blaster set vs. the worst blaster set (or combo) is quite a spread. Hence I'd guess it is possible to build some sentinel combos which actually exceed low end blaster performance (other than that AOE business). Not based on looking at pylon tests, but I'd guess the sentinel king would be electric/bio/electric.