Null da Gull Knockback

[phandaal]

On 1/7/2025 at 8:10 PM, Snarky said:

Everyone has an opinion.  And i appreciate the feedback.  I do.  
 

i am honestly shocked there is so much pro knockback votes.  3 is obvs a joke.  But peeps against option 2???   Interesting indeed

 

It is weird that people are against even having the option to swap KB to KD without adding an enhancement. To me it seems like a no-brainer win for the folks running Homecoming.

 

My very first character back in the ancient days was NRG/NRG blaster. I was one of those noobs knocking everyone's mobs out of alignment because I did not understand how to use the skill. People were actually very patient, maybe because the whole thing was new and we were all still figuring things out together. After enough time I did figure out how to use it to herd mobs, but it still requires the rest of the group to play around you.

[Snarky]

I have been warned by the Devs that my posts in this thread were insulting.  I will no longer be posting on any topic.  Thank you for your opinions.

[biostem]

22 minutes ago, Snarky said:

my posts in this thread were insulting

Awwww Snarky, we all know that's just how you express your unwavering love for all (un)living things!

[Super Atom]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

I have been warned by the Devs that my posts in this thread were insulting.  I will no longer be posting on any topic.  Thank you for your opinions.

 

[UltraAlt]

Leave knockback alone.

 

It has been in the game since the start of the game.

 

Knockback is a soft hold.

 

I would think that the majority of players that complain about it are melee players and/or playing level 50's and just want to steamroll content.

 

If you don't like knockback on your characters, there are enhancements to convert it.

 

If you don't like other people using knockback, maybe it is time to realizes that you are playing with other people that don't need to adhere to your playstyle.

If you have the star? Kick them if you like.

If you don't have the star? You can try to talk to the player, complain to the team leader, or leave the team.

 

Are you on the only one on the team that is complaining? I'm going to put you on ignore.

Are you the leader and the only one complaining? I probably put you on ignore and may or may not simply leave your team. I don't want to see your /lfg recruitment messages any more.

 

I love knockback. (Do I have knockback on every character? no)

 

Is there a learning curve until you figure out how to use it in a strategic manner? Yes.

 

I have run on many teams with players that don't pay attention to the rest of the team at all and are a danger to their own character and the rest of the team.

I try to do my best to play my character in a way to mitigate and/or to work with their chaos. 

 

As far as I'm concerned, there is far too much complaining about knockback.

It isn't complaints from a large number of players, but the players that have an issue with it are very vocal.

[Super Atom]

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

Leave knockback alone.

 

It has been in the game since the start of the game.

 

Knockback is a soft hold.

 

I would think that the majority of players that complain about it are melee players and/or playing level 50's and just want to steamroll content.

 

If you don't like knockback on your characters, there are enhancements to convert it.

 

If you don't like other people using knockback, maybe it is time to realizes that you are playing with other people that don't need to adhere to your playstyle.

If you have the star? Kick them if you like.

If you don't have the star? You can try to talk to the player, complain to the team leader, or leave the team.

 

Are you on the only one on the team that is complaining? I'm going to put you on ignore.

Are you the leader and the only one complaining? I probably put you on ignore and may or may not simply leave your team. I don't want to see your /lfg recruitment messages any more.

 

I love knockback. (Do I have knockback on every character? no)

 

Is there a learning curve until you figure out how to use it in a strategic manner? Yes.

 

I have run on many teams with players that don't pay attention to the rest of the team at all and are a danger to their own character and the rest of the team.

I try to do my best to play my character in a way to mitigate and/or to work with their chaos. 

 

As far as I'm concerned, there is far too much complaining about knockback.

It isn't complaints from a large number of players, but the players that have an issue with it are very vocal.

All this crying and you didn't even read the suggestion. It literally leaves knock back as is for people who like it

[ZacKing]

5 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

It has been in the game since the start of the game.

 

That's true, but I myself don't think that should be an excuse to not give KB (or any game system) a second look.

 

5 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

I would think that the majority of players that complain about it are melee players and/or playing level 50's and just want to steamroll content.

 

I'm sure there are a lot of melee players out there annoyed by KB just as there are a lot of melee players out there annoyed by nukes and fold space pulling stuff off of them.  There are those of us out there that don't particularly like knockback regardless of what AT we're playing.  I'm ok with knockback when its effects can be mitigated, such as having sufficient space to knock things into a wall or fly above them to knock them down.  Quite a lot of the time this isn't always feasible given this games love of small cave maps and narrow hallways.  Even with situational awareness, KB has a very annoying proclivity to knock NPCs into walls or other objects, making them get stuck and un-targetable and holding up everything.  There is an amazing number of maps in this game with geometry errors that things can get stuck in.  That's annoying and at least to me, a big part of why KB should be toned down and/or adding a toggle to let players make their own choice whether they want it or not. 

 

As for people being "bullied" if a toggle got added, people are being "bullied" right now over KB, so providing a means for people to make their own choice to avoid that other than sacrificing slots or leaving teams is a better option in my mind.  It's putting the agency in the players hands.  Some folk seem to be assuming that if there were a toggle, there would be tons of people who wouldn't jump at the chance to use it on a team.  I can't speak for anyone other than me, but I'd welcome a toggle and wouldn't have any problem turning it on/off as needed.

Edited Tuesday at 03:07 PM by ZacKing

[ZacKing]

15 hours ago, Snarky said:

I have been warned by the Devs that my posts in this thread were insulting.  I will no longer be posting on any topic.  Thank you for your opinions.

 

Just remember one thing - someone reported you because you upset or offended them by something you said.  Them being upset or offended doesn't make them right and you and your opinion wrong.

[tidge]

8 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

 

Just remember one thing - someone reported you because you upset or offended them by something you said.  Them being upset or offended doesn't make them right and you and your opinion wrong.

 

I don't know that someone-else-reporting-a-post is always the reason for a 'warning'; I have it on good authority that occasionally warnings are given to 'both sides' of certain arguments almost entirely because of a sense of 'fairness'. FWIW I don't think I've every 'reported' a post. I have had an entire thread deleted/hidden, presumably because it made certain people uncomfortable, and based on the user who posted in that thread (rather than contacting me directly) I can guess that the user reached out to a moderator because passive-aggressive open requests to lock threads seems to be their MO.

 

In this thread? I do think that a couple of the posts went past the point of 'snark', into rather direct insults of a specific individual... and (again IMO) it was multiple times. Based on what *I've* gotten warnings for? I am not at all surprised.

[Seed22]

EDIT: I’ll be damned if I get another demerit. I stand by what I said but I’m in CB and I can’t have that being compromised because someone got butt hurt and reported me. 

 

Honestly, the moderation is getting seriously out of hand in the wrong direction to the point where I’m thinking this whole thing needs to shut down like in 2012 for the good of the game itself, ironically.

Edited Tuesday at 04:00 PM by Seed22

[ZacKing]

52 minutes ago, tidge said:

I don't know that someone-else-reporting-a-post is always the reason for a 'warning';

 

Whether or not a post was or wasn't reported is totally irrelevant.  Regardless, someone else "feeling" one way or the other about words someone else typed doesn't make them right and Snarky wrong.   I don't think it's a good idea to delve too deep into content moderation here as that's not going to accomplish or change anything.

[srmalloy]

18 hours ago, phandaal said:

It is weird that people are against even having the option to swap KB to KD without adding an enhancement.

Balance. If you give the ability to, say, go to Null and turn all your knockback into knockdown, and regard this as an improvement to your powers, then what do you give to players with non-KB powers to give them the ability to make a similar degree of improvement to their powers?

[Excraft]

8 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

Balance. If you give the ability to, say, go to Null and turn all your knockback into knockdown, and regard this as an improvement to your powers, then what do you give to players with non-KB powers to give them the ability to make a similar degree of improvement to their powers?

 

Nothing.  If you believe a few people in this thread, those other players playing sets without KB already have higher DPS, so the toggle would be bringing KB powers and sets up to par.

[RCU7115]

On 1/7/2025 at 8:11 AM, Struck said:

Group heal with repel so you have to fight for it.

 

[tidge]

29 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

 

Whether or not a post was or wasn't reported is totally irrelevant. 

 

"Getting reported" was literally the predicate condition stated in the post I responded to!

 

1 hour ago, ZacKing said:

Just remember one thing - someone reported you because you upset or offended them by something you said. 

 

[Eldyem]

2 hours ago, ZacKing said:

 

That's true, but I myself don't think that should be an excuse to not give KB (or any game system) a second look.

 

There's other posts ITT that touch on this, but really I think the biggest "rework" knockback needs is for AoEs to stop having % chances to knockback with decently high knockback amounts. It was a strange and honestly somewhat baffling decision in 2004. Powers like Repulsing Torrent (which just feels entirely misplaced in a Melee set to begin with), Solar Flare, and Bright Nova Detonation "grief" players, especially melees, not because of knockback but because they, by intentional design decision, scatter enemy groups. I don't think any of those 3 powers I named are strong enough to warrant that, nor do I think they would be remotely overpowered if the KB amount was pushed up to 100%. Even with KB-to-KD IOs. 

[ZacKing]

47 minutes ago, tidge said:

"Getting reported" was literally the predicate condition stated in the post I responded to!

 

Yes I know.  I'm the one who made the post and I know what I wrote.  What I said in my reply to you was whether or not there was a report is irrelevant, so arguing semantics is pointless and doesn't lend anything to the topic at hand. 

 

23 minutes ago, Eldyem said:

There's other posts ITT that touch on this, but really I think the biggest "rework" knockback needs is for AoEs to stop having % chances to knockback with decently high knockback amounts. It was a strange and honestly somewhat baffling decision in 2004. Powers like Repulsing Torrent (which just feels entirely misplaced in a Melee set to begin with), Solar Flare, and Bright Nova Detonation "grief" players, especially melees, not because of knockback but because they, by intentional design decision, scatter enemy groups. I don't think any of those 3 powers I named are strong enough to warrant that, nor do I think they would be remotely overpowered if the KB amount was pushed up to 100%. Even with KB-to-KD IOs. 

 

This is kind of what I was trying to say earlier in the thread in that I don't think the original power designers thought all of this KB through in terms of how it's going to impact team play.  KB looks good on paper, but in practice maybe not so much.

[phandaal]

2 hours ago, srmalloy said:

Balance. If you give the ability to, say, go to Null and turn all your knockback into knockdown, and regard this as an improvement to your powers, then what do you give to players with non-KB powers to give them the ability to make a similar degree of improvement to their powers?

 

Homecoming already has other improvements over live CoH. This is one more. If people want other gameplay improvements, they can ask for those too.

[Wavicle]

3 hours ago, srmalloy said:

Balance. If you give the ability to, say, go to Null and turn all your knockback into knockdown, and regard this as an improvement to your powers, then what do you give to players with non-KB powers to give them the ability to make a similar degree of improvement to their powers?

Their powers don't have penalties to overcome. It's still balanced.

[Ultimo]

21 hours ago, Snarky said:

I have been warned by the Devs that my posts in this thread were insulting.  I will no longer be posting on any topic.  Thank you for your opinions.

Having been the target of many insulting posts in the past, I didn't see you post anything I thought was insulting.

 

That said, I get that you don't like knockback.  Personally, I love it.  It's typical of comic books.  Your suggestion would mean BOTH of us could be happy, so I don't see any problem with it.  You could turn off knockback and enjoy the game, I could leave it on, and enjoy the game.

 

[Jacke]

I think the request for a KB affecting all Powers won't be done, particularly due to how I think the current Powers would have to be changed.

 

All Player KB Powers (there are a lot) would have to check an internal Power used as a flag for this.  That means changing dozens of Powers--and testing it extensively.

 

That's a big chunk of Dev and Tester time to do this right.  There's also the interaction with other planned changes.  That alone is a sufficient issue that will block this.

[biostem]

5 minutes ago, Jacke said:

All Player KB Powers (there are a lot) would have to check an internal Power used as a flag for this. 

It depends upon how the powers work.  For instance, if anything less than a value of 1 for a KB power turns it into KD, then you could simply apply a -KB magnitude debuff to the player...

[Jacke]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

It depends upon how the powers work.  For instance, if anything less than a value of 1 for a KB power turns it into KD, then you could simply apply a -KB magnitude debuff to the player...

 

It still requires editting the effects of dozens of Powers.  I've been a Tester for HC.  I know that even the simplest changes have to be checked to make sure the changes are as intended.  Doing the changes correctly and testing them for dozens of Powers is rather significant.  I think the amount of volunteer hours it would require makes this rather unlikely to be done.

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, Jacke said:

It still requires editting the effects of dozens of Powers.  I've been a Tester for HC.  I know that even the simplest changes have to be checked to make sure the changes are as intended.  Doing the changes correctly and testing them for dozens of Powers is rather significant.  I think the amount of volunteer hours it would require makes this rather unlikely to be done.

I was talking about one possible implementation, not the subsequent testing involved.  I should hope that even the most miniscule change would be tested before going live...

[Jacke]

3 hours ago, biostem said:

I was talking about one possible implementation, not the subsequent testing involved.  I should hope that even the most miniscule change would be tested before going live...

 

I was talking about the shear amount of work needed to be done for any implementation of this suggestion and testing it.  There is no avoiding changed dozens of Powers and testing each of those changed Powers.

 

Suggestions that demand a lot of volunteer Developer and Tester hours need to be very very important and necessary before they will be considered.