New year, new Armor T9 discussion!

[tidge]

From a couple of recent threads elsewhere, I'm reminded by just how poor a choice most "armor" T9s are for characters, I am not saying that they can't be made to work, just that in comparison to other options they are pretty inferior.

 

What do *I* think is wrong with them?

 

#1: Inspirations can pretty much do most of what the T9s can do... Inspirations don't have a downside... and by the earliest point a character can pick a T9, that character will have 15 slots to hold inspirations.

 

I kinda like when a power set includes a power that means certain inspirations can (mostly) be ignored! Most T9s don't fall into this category, for reasons:

 

#2 The base recharge times are ridiculously long, and

 

#3 The crashes (which don't happen with Inspirations)

 

There is no shorter of Power Pool powers available (usually level 20) far earlier that T9s (even in a primary, at level 26) that have shorter base recharge times than T9s, no crashes, and effects rather similar to some T9s: Rune of Protection, Adrenal Booster, Unleash Potential, Unrelenting... and if we want to include the "OH $#!+" use case, Phase Shift). Obviously there are necessary pre-requisites for each of those powers, but most of my builds have a way to fit in three pool power choices by level 30 (when armor secondary T9s become available), if not earlier.

 

Historically: I have a vague recollection that originally (Issue 0, and for the "Jack E" era) there was a deep concern about making players "impossible to defeat"... and this would have been carried over into the initial PVP-era thinking. However: The game doesn't really reward "not being defeated". Even if I wanted to imagine some sort of "unkillable tanker" (and I didn't bother to review the Tanker sub-forum to find self-described "unkillable tanker builds") teamed with a group of murder-hobos, the game still has the following mechanics in play working against (teams of) players:

• Aggro caps
• Floor 5% chances to hit
• Enemy-applied debuffs
• An undefeated enemy gives no XP, Inf, or loot drops

 

I don't want to bust on Jack E, but this is the guy that initially thought rooting Invulnerability characters using Unyielding was both necessary and good for game balance.

 

What would I like to see? Basically I'd like to see the T9s put on par with (or closer to) Inspirations:

• Remove the crashes (if T9 nukes no longer crashes, why should armor clicky T9s?)
• Improve the base recharge times

 

For the latter point, I don't think the T9s should be able to be made "perma", and the enhanceable nature of powers (as opposed to Inspirations) is a kewl thang IMO. Certainly the way an Incarnate power like Destiny: Barrier (available every 2 minutes) can give us some idea of what a self-affecting buff could look like at 'maximum strength' (for non-incarnate content).

 

I am pretty much open to re-imagining many of the armor T9s in ways other than my suggestions above. For example, some could become (weaker, for balance) toggles... or some could become (weaker and/or more limited and/or different) Auto powers.

 

What has everybody else got?

[mistagoat]

Yeah, I'm with ya! Really just dropping the crashes would be huge! I'm finishing up a claws/willpower scrapper and I only took Strength of Will at 47 for a 1 slot mule of the unbreakable guard HP unique. If it didn't have a crash, I would have taken it much earlier and actually used it instead of relying on inspirations to get me through rough spots.

 

Better recharge would be fantastic too but I'd settle for just making them a little more useable in general.

 

Look toward Icy Bastion for an example of near perfect t9 implementation.

[tidge]

4 minutes ago, mistagoat said:

Better recharge would be fantastic too but I'd settle for just making them a little more useable in general.

 

I was initially hesitant to suggest faster recharge times for T9s, but I think the existence of Destiny Incarnate powers (available at levels 45+, sure) somewhat exposes just how BAD most of the T9s are:

• Most (all?) T9s only affect the character using it, Destiny powers have team/league effects.
• Destiny powers are on a 2-minute timer, T9s unenhanced base recharge times can be greater than 15 minutes.

In my head, since the days when the Incarnates were introduced, I've seen the Incarnate tiers beyond Alpha as the way to let some ATs get the sorts of powers that other ATs get... basically offering a taste of what it can feel like to have a different AT; AoE ranged attacks, Pets, Debuffs, Defenses/Resistances/Heals, blah blah fishcakes. But I think the Destiny powers are more of a taste of what a good Armor T9 should be... if the Destiny powers exactly copied actual armor T9s, attitudes towards them would be very different.

[Uun]

The best T9s are those in the more recent armor sets, Radiation and Bio. They have no (or minimal) crash and provide a host of useful buffs. The tradeoff is a much shorter duration than the OG T9s. Icy Bastion also fits this model, but I wonder if the 30s duration is too short.

 

36 minutes ago, mistagoat said:

I'm finishing up a claws/willpower scrapper and I only took Strength of Will at 47 for a 1 slot mule of the unbreakable guard HP unique. If it didn't have a crash, I would have taken it much earlier and actually used it instead of relying on inspirations to get me through rough spots.

The crash on SoW is minimal (-50% end) and a non-issue. The issue is that SoW doesn't do much. It primarily provides S/L resist, but if you're taken Tough you're S/L resist should already be capped. The F/C/E/N/T/P resist it provides is meaningless since WP relies primarily on defense for F/C/E/N protection and it has nothing to stack with. Shield/OWTS has much the same issue, but at least it provides +hp as well.

[mistagoat]

10 minutes ago, Uun said:

The best T9s are those in the more recent armor sets, Radiation and Bio. They have no (or minimal) crash and provide a host of useful buffs. The tradeoff is a much shorter duration than the OG T9s. Icy Bastion also fits this model, but I wonder if the 30s duration is too short.

 

The crash on SoW is minimal (-50% end) and a non-issue. The issue is that SoW doesn't do much. It primarily provides S/L resist, but if you're taken Tough you're S/L resist should already be capped. The F/C/E/N/T/P resist it provides is meaningless since WP relies primarily on defense for F/C/E/N protection and it has nothing to stack with. Shield/OWTS has much the same issue, but at least it provides +hp as well.

Yeah, thats fair. I think I had a window from 30 to about 40 where that resistance would have been helpful since some of my resist numbers were coming from set bonuses in powers that I didn't have yet. But your point is taken, it has limited utility.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Uun said:

The F/C/E/N/T/P resist it provides is meaningless since WP relies primarily on defense for F/C/E/N protection and it has nothing to stack with.

I completely disagree. I take Strength of Will on all my Willpower characters, and I find the boost for Fire, Cold, Energy, Negative Energy, Psionic, and Toxic it gives to be very helpful in turning fights around even though the set lacks other powers that provide resistance to those damage types. Yes, Willpower relies more on defense against those damage types, but when your defense isn't keeping you from being hit, adding near Toughness levels of resist to those damage types is a definite help. Not a huge help, but a definite one. I still only leave the power at its base enhancement slot, but I don't use it as a mule. It gets a scaling damage resist enhancement slotted.

 

And because Strength of Will's crash is so minor, I'm clicking it every time a fight gets rough. My endurance never wavers until it crashes and my endurance has finished filling before it finishes timing back in.

[Uun]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

I completely disagree. I take Strength of Will on all my Willpower characters, and I find the boost for Fire, Cold, Energy, Negative Energy, Psionic, and Toxic it gives to be very helpful in turning fights around even though the set lacks other powers that provide resistance to those damage types. Yes, Willpower relies more on defense against those damage types, but when your defense isn't keeping you from being hit, adding near Toughness levels of resist to those damage types is a definite help. Not a huge help, but a definite one. 

Hardly. SoW provides 12.5% F/C/E/N/T/P resist to tanks, 9.375% to brutes, scrappers and stalkers and 8.75% to sentinels. A small orange inspiration provides 10% resist. I did take SoW on my WP brute, but I mostly use it when my toggles get dropped by Mu Adept and I need to restore protection quickly. I slot it with 2x Gladiator's Armor (resist & +def).

 

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

I still only leave the power at its base enhancement slot, but I don't use it as a mule. It gets a scaling damage resist enhancement slotted.

SoW only takes Resist sets. The scaling damage resist enhancement is in a Defense set (Reactive Defenses).

[Rudra]

51 minutes ago, Uun said:

Hardly. SoW provides 12.5% F/C/E/N/T/P resist to tanks, 9.375% to brutes, scrappers and stalkers and 8.75% to sentinels. A small orange inspiration provides 10% resist. I did take SoW on my WP brute, but I mostly use it when my toggles get dropped by Mu Adept and I need to restore protection quickly. I slot it with 2x Gladiator's Armor (resist & +def).

And popping Strength of Will I don't have to worry about my lack of orange inspirations. (Edit: Especially since with the enhancement, it grants +11.55% to my Brutes. That's slightly better than the orange inspiration's 10%.) Let's just agree that we disagree.

 

51 minutes ago, Uun said:

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

I still only leave the power at its base enhancement slot, but I don't use it as a mule. It gets a scaling damage resist enhancement slotted.

SoW only takes Resist sets. The scaling damage resist enhancement is in a Defense set (Reactive Defenses).

Not the proc'. An attuned enhancement. They scale as your level changes. Hence "a scaling damage resist enhancement" and not "the scaling damage resist proc". (Edit again: And if you are wondering why I posted scaling instead of attuned? It's because I didn't remember "attuned" at the time I typed the post and you had already responded before I remembered.)

 

Edited January 8 by Rudra

[minichrissy007]

The obvious answer is to nerf inspirations into the ground.  🙈

[macskull]

The devs have said repeatedly that the game isn’t balanced around inspiration use, so it would kind of be silly for them to nerf inspirations. The existing precedent is to simply disable some or all of them in certain scenarios.

 

On topic: I would like to see all t9’s behave like the newer ones. Hell. all of the powers that have stupid long recharges need to be re-evaluated.

[Captain Fabulous]

Just drop the crash and they're fine. The crash is the part that makes them not worth taking. Some could probably use a tweak here and there, but by and large they're OK except for the crash. Are they necessary in a world of overpowered IO builds? No, but the game is balanced around SOs, not IOs, and for an SO build they'd be very useful without the crash.

The crashes were removed from blast T9s, I dunno why we still have them on melee armors. Or anywhere for that matter. It was always a poor design decision from back on live. It was dumb then and it's dumb now.

[Uun]

14 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Just drop the crash and they're fine. The crash is the part that makes them not worth taking. Some could probably use a tweak here and there, but by and large they're OK except for the crash. Are they necessary in a world of overpowered IO builds? No, but the game is balanced around SOs, not IOs, and for an SO build they'd be very useful without the crash.

The crashes were removed from blast T9s, I dunno why we still have them on melee armors. Or anywhere for that matter. It was always a poor design decision from back on live. It was dumb then and it's dumb now.

Not really. Elude, Kuji-In Retsu and Overload provide largely superfluous defense (except Toxic/Psi in the case of Overload).  Strength of Will and One With the Shield provide very limited resist buffs and need to be retuned.

[FupDup]

13 minutes ago, Uun said:

Not really. Elude, Kuji-In Retsu and Overload provide largely superfluous defense (except Toxic/Psi in the case of Overload).  Strength of Will and One With the Shield provide very limited resist buffs and need to be retuned.

I'm mostly on your side here but I have some nitpicks:

 

Kuji gives DDR, which Nin is very much lacking in by default. 

 

Overload provides more DDR as well, and a max HP boost. 

 

One with the Shield gives max HP too. 

 

 

But then on the other hand, there's stuff like Power Surge and Unstoppable that are almost suicide buttons due to their 90% HP crashes and what they give it mostly already covered by the other powers in their respective sets. 

Edited Sunday at 07:09 PM by FupDup

[Uun]

2 hours ago, FupDup said:

Kuji gives DDR, which Nin is very much lacking in by default. 

Keep the DDR, eliminate the 45% +def, add ~15% resist

 

2 hours ago, FupDup said:

Overload provides more DDR as well, and a max HP boost. 

Keep those, eliminate the 45% S/L/F/C/E/N def, add ~15% resist

 

2 hours ago, FupDup said:

One with the Shield gives max HP too. 

Keep that, cut the S/L resist in half, double the F/C/E/N/T resist

 

I think Unstoppable is largely fixed by eliminating the crash, since it can actually use the additional resistance. On the other hand, even without the crash, Power Surge provides virtually nothing that isn't capped already, with the exception of Tx/Ne resist and repel protection. I would eliminate the resistance and add +regen and +hp.

[TheMoneyMaker]

On 1/7/2025 at 11:28 AM, tidge said:

 

• Remove the crashes (if T9 nukes no longer crashes, why should armor clicky T9s?)

My favorite part of Superman comics is when he flexes his invulnerability so hard that he nearly dies 90 seconds later

[Glacier Peak]

My thinking is, am I using the T9 in anticipation of something or am responding to a situation that exceeds my normal mitigation measures. 

 

Proactive versus reactive.

[Captain Fabulous]

3 hours ago, Uun said:

Not really. Elude, Kuji-In Retsu and Overload provide largely superfluous defense (except Toxic/Psi in the case of Overload).  Strength of Will and One With the Shield provide very limited resist buffs and need to be retuned.

 

4 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Some could probably use a tweak here and there

Elude, Kuji-In, and Overload are fine. They put everyone over the defense softcap (remember, balance around average SO builds that may not take the Fighting pool), boosts recovery, defense debuff resistance, and max HP in Overload. They do exactly what an ultimate defense-based armor power should do -- making you nearly godlike for 180 seconds.

Strength of Will is a bit of an oddball power in an oddball set. Willpower is hodgepodge of resistance, defense, and regeneration. You're not supposed to have massive numbers in any one of those areas, so the relatively low resist boost of SoW makes sense, and I think is balanced out by the low recharge time. I wouldn't object to adding in a small +regen/+absorb and +defense. Unlike most other T9s it doesn't make you godly, it just gives you a boost. One With The Shield is in a very similar place in a set that's also a mix of various damage mitigators.

The only T9 I think needs a major retooling is Moment of Glory. It grants abilities that shouldn't be in a healing-based set with a duration that makes it mostly useless. 

[Captain Fabulous]

31 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

My thinking is, am I using the T9 in anticipation of something or am responding to a situation that exceeds my normal mitigation measures. 

 

Proactive versus reactive.

Some favor one over the other while others are good for both.

[Uun]

3 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

You're not supposed to have massive numbers in any one of those areas, so the relatively low resist boost of SoW makes sense, and I think is balanced out by the low recharge time.

The recharge of Strength of Will and One With the Shield can't be enhanced, while all the other T9s can. 

[golstat2003]

5 hours ago, Uun said:

Keep the DDR, eliminate the 45% +def, add ~15% resist

 

Keep those, eliminate the 45% S/L/F/C/E/N def, add ~15% resist

 

Keep that, cut the S/L resist in half, double the F/C/E/N/T resist

 

I think Unstoppable is largely fixed by eliminating the crash, since it can actually use the additional resistance. On the other hand, even without the crash, Power Surge provides virtually nothing that isn't capped already, with the exception of Tx/Ne resist and repel protection. I would eliminate the resistance and add +regen and +hp.

 

I'm fine with anything they do as long as they cut the crash or at least make it a half crash. Or better yet look at the modern T9s that are not a full crash and re-model them around that. I will NEVER take a T9 with any ridiculous crash. Especially since in some melee sets you can build to 45% defense or more. The full crash is a relic of a game that COH hasn't been for over a decade.

 

EDIT: Or put in a more crass way: I don't need an "oh shit!" power if I (and many others) already build my characters to never be in "oh shit!" territory.

Edited Monday at 03:41 AM by golstat2003

[Major_Decoy]

You know what, they'd be better even if they kept the crash but moved it to an activation cost.

[Captain Fabulous]

12 hours ago, Uun said:

The recharge of Strength of Will and One With the Shield can't be enhanced, while all the other T9s can. 

Most T9s are 180 seconds with a 1000 sec enhanceable recharge. SoW and OWtS are 120 with a fixed 360 recharge.

[Troo]

On 1/7/2025 at 8:28 AM, tidge said:

What would I like to see? Basically I'd like to see the T9s put on par with (or closer to) Inspirations:

• Remove the crashes (if T9 nukes no longer crashes, why should armor clicky T9s?)
• Improve the base recharge times

 

For the latter point, I don't think the T9s should be able to be made "perma", and the enhanceable nature of powers (as opposed to Inspirations) is a kewl thang IMO. Certainly the way an Incarnate power like Destiny: Barrier (available every 2 minutes) can give us some idea of what a self-affecting buff could look like at 'maximum strength' (for non-incarnate content).

 

Having T9s with crashes and long recharges AND THEN comparing them to some Incarnates... Oof, yep there are some very skip-able T9s.

 

It would be ideal to take some time and have the lagging T9s work better while still providing flavor to each set rather than the same-same formula driven approach.

 

FLAVOR > same-same formula driven

 

One could propose simply dropping or significantly reducing crashes near term with the goal of revisiting recharges and further changes at another time.

_____________

 

Something like Moment of Glory is very attractive lasting 30 seconds with a 240 second cooldown (remove the ~3s activation or make it 33s). [currently lasts ~12s]

 

T9s that last 180s have a penalty for that duration. Maybe the penalty could be less for some tradeoff.

_____________

 

Having T9s equal a mix of Inspiration effects could be compelling. One super + one large + two mediums or something like that.

 

Inspirations: Most last 60 seconds with no crash.

Spoiler

Small Inspirations

Break Free = Resist Effects

Catch a Breath = +25 END

Discipline = Resist effects

Enrage = +25% DMG

Insight = +7.5% ACC, +Perception

Luck = +12.5% DEF

Respite = +25% HP

Sturdy = +10% RES DMG, RES Teleport

 

Medium Inspirations

Dramatic Improvement = +33% HP

Emerge = Resist Effects

Focused Rage = +33% DMG

Good Luck = +25% DEF

Keen Insight = +18.75% ACC

Rugged = +15% RES DMG, RES Teleport

Strength of Will = Resist effects

Take a Breather = +33 END

 

Large Inspirations

Escape = Resist Effects
Iron Will = Resist effects
Phenomenal Luck = +33% DEF
Restoration = Self Rez
Resurgence = +50% HP
Righteous Rage = +50% DMG
Robust = +20% RES DMG, RES Teleport
Second Wind = +50 END
Uncanny Insight = +37.5% ACC

 

Super Inspirations

Amazing Luck = +50% DEF
Back in the Fight = +100 END
Furious Rage = +100% DMG
Immortal Recovery = Self Rez
Liberate = Resist Effects
Perfect Health = +100% HP
Resistant = +30% RES DMG, RES Teleport
Sight Beyond Sight = +75% ACC
Ultimate = Level Difference +1

 

Edited Monday at 04:26 PM by Troo

[Americas Angel]

I'm one of the few players who regularly use the 180s T9s in both PvE and PvP. They can be great powers, and while they do need some tweaks, I don't think they need revamps. Yes, the more casual side of the playerbase aren't familiar with their use-case. But I don't think that's justification to revamp them.

 

For those of you that don't know, the way to use them in PvE is to cycle them. On my EM/EA Scrapper, I do the following:
 

Minute 1: Ageless + Unleash Potential
Minute 2: Overload
Minute 3: Ageless + Overload
Minute 4: Overload

I can cycle this over and over. Using the +end from Ageless to counter the endurance crash of Overload. (And if I'm clutch with the timing, I can avoid the toggles dropping all together.) The benefit of this is that I can easily cap psy defense due to Overload or Unleash Potential being active, my DDR is capped due to Overload or Unleashed Potential + Ageless, and the +regen from Energize stacks nicely with the +MaxHP from Overload / +regen from Unleash Potential for an additional 10-15 HPS. Not to mention my higher HP is good to have as an antispike tool. 

End result? My EM/EA scrapper is much tankier than an EM/EA that foregoes the T9. It can handle multiple spawns of hard enemies like Carnies, CoT, etc, at +4/8 solo. It doesn't require inspirations to fight psy enemies.

Here's a video of @Frosticus's EM/EA stalker in action. Same principles:
 

 

As you can see...it's pretty tough!

Much like Drain Psyche was used as a baseline for the Blaster sustains, I think Overload is a good use case to consider how to improve the other 180s T9s, as they don't quite match up to it. Here's what I'd do:

Elude

• Crash: Remove the -recovery crash (Especially as Elude has no end management)
• Utility: Debuff resists or DPS buffs (+recharge?) of some kind
• HPS Buff: +regen or +MaxHP or +absorb

 

Retsu

• Crash: Remove the -recovery crash
• Utility: Debuff resists or DPS buffs of some kind
• HPS Buff: +regen or +MaxHP or +absorb

 

Unstoppable

• Crash: Remove -HP crash 
• Utility: Debuff resists or DPS buffs of some kind
• HPS Buff: +regen or +MaxHP or +absorb

 

Power Surge

• Crash: Remove the -recovery crash, remove -HP crash 
• Utility: Debuff resists or DPS buffs (+recharge, elec procs, etc) of some kind
• HPS Buff: +regen or +MaxHP or +absorb

The different Utility/HPS buffs that each power gets is where the fun stuff would get added. You don't want to have the T9s just plug every hole, as that makes things homogenous. But you do want them to synergise well with the armor sets weaknesses, ala Overload. Imagine this is where the bulk of the "suggestions foruming" would take place.
 

The only area that's a bit confusing is what to do about the -recovery parts of the crashes. Overload, Elude, Retsu, and Power Surge all have it. Unstoppable doesn't. It should be removed from Elude because SR doesn't have any end management powers. But that might make SR better, as Nin and EA will have to pay a power tax for said end management power, and then a DPS tax in pausing to manage the -recovery crash with it. Maybe the solution here is to remove the -recovery crash from Elude, but give Elude fewer Utility/HPS Buff tweaks compared to EA and Nin? (But then, that might make SR weaker than the other sets. But then, SR is currently the best outside of the T9s so maybe that balances? But what about...)

 

Yeah, it's a tricky one. I'd say just remove the -recovery part of the crash from all of the 180s T9s and see how they play on beta. If it's OP, look at giving all of them a -recovery value, but much much lower than they currently do. (Similar to stuff like Hasten, Burnout, Meltdown, Rage, etc). Ideally you want it low enough so that it doesn't require an end management power pick for counterplay, as Invuln and SR don't have access to those.
 

You also probably want to change the -end crash from -100% end to -100 end. (I.e. a set number value instead of a percentage.) This is so the crash can be countered with accolades or set bonuses. Counterplay is good game design.

 

And hey, if we're going full Suggestions Forum with this. I'd suggest tweaking every toggle in the game to have a 0s activation time. (So you can just spam click them to turn them back on.) Pseudo mezzing myself for 0.5-3s per toggle isn't fun or challenging. (Having them drop is the risk part of the risk/reward. The retoggling is just a pain.)

 

As an aside, I'd say the only T9 folks wouldn't mind being totally revamped (aka turned into something like Meltdown/One With the Shield esq) is Power Surge, due to how terrible its current crash is.

Edited Monday at 09:51 PM by Americas Angel

[Frosticus]

I love overload and retsu (scrap and sentinel). I wouldn't play those sets without the t9s in their current (or very similar form).

*I have 2 - /ea stalkers, a stone/nin scrap, an elec/nin sent and a sr/ss tank that all live in their t9s with the same formula of seamless t9>unleash>t9>unleash

 

The full end crash is pretty trivial to power through and the builds reward chasing optimization as much or more than anything else in the game (which some really enjoy)

 

I'm of the opinion that the defense based t9s give ample reward to justify their downsides. You just have a case of a community (discord included although they are coming around on /nins retsu) that is hesitant to try something because someone told them that it didn't work for them, when in most cases the crash is "barely an inconvenience" 

That said, unstoppable and powersurge either need to do a lot more to justify the increased risk that their crash carries, or the hp crash needs to be retooled.

 

In the video @Americas Angel posted above at one point the mobs have 3x veng and a 54 rad/rad AV is on me. I dunno what to tell you, but even chain emailing super insp might balk at that situation. And as many survival insp one would take to replicate it, I can load up on huge reds instead if so inclined.