Rebirth Has a Nice Thing - Maybe We Ought To Have It Too

[Seed22]

9 hours ago, Excraft said:

 

If you are suggesting that others pointing out that your statements are demonstrably wrong, then yes I would agree that others are not replying in good faith.  You're very quick to be critical of the work other servers have done and dismissing any of the excellent features they've added.  You're very quick to praise anything and everything HC has done, even when some of the items implemented here clearly fall into what you've berated other servers for as "jank".  Not everything any server has done is perfect, and that includes HC.

 

I mean seriously, you're going to argue that two pieces aren't meant to be used together?  Ok, so what?  Why were they allowed to be used outside of their intended manner then?  Isn't that a quality issue here?  Thing is, it's not even a big deal.  There are tons of costume pieces that cause clipping and other issues.

 

@Super Atom is right, you've picked a weird hill to die on.  Seems to me like you're not able or just plain unwilling to admit that you're wrong.  You're also not able to say that not everything other servers have done is bad either because that would mean you'd lose your spot on the cheerleader squad here or something.   It's perfectly fine to say that some of the stuff other servers have done with costume pieces isn't the best.  Trying to paint everything they've done as bad is disingenuous and you know it.  There are a lot of great costume additions on other servers and some of the work they've done with the editor puts HC to shame.  That's not to say what HC has done here is terrible.  They've done a lot of things better than other servers have.  Other servers have done things much better than HC.  It's not wrong to admit that.

Well articulated response.

 

Glacial will do one of two things now as is customary to the CoH forums:

 

1.) Not read. Self explanatory yet they’ll give a snarky or wildly misinformed response.

 

2.) Continue to die on the hill that is kissing HC’s butts and thinking they do no wrong.

 

You see, kids? This is the danger of only playing one game, and specifically one version/one server of said game. You become blind to literally everything around you and become sycophantic in nature to that one game.

 

But being serious, it is very rude to call every other dev out there “jank” HC has plenty of jank to it, a lot if you really go looking. They are NO better, and in a few cases they are exponentially worse, than other servers.

 

 

*Before I get another demerit, this is not a slight towards Glacial or the forums, this is just my take on the nature of online forums and getting attached to one game, what it does to criticism and what not.

Edited Friday at 02:45 PM by Seed22

[GM Crumpet]

9 hours ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

 

I mean, I understand this outlook, but I also always have worried that this kind of implies that anything one server does it's considered taboo to ever have something similar. This doesn't wholly seem to be the case with weapon sheathing, but I know there's plenty of other features or even just costume pieces I'd love to see like a diver's helmet. Heck, I even remember someone posting costume pieces they had made, offering for the homecoming team to just take it, and they never were picked up but I see them over on another server.

 

I guess what I'm just saying is: please tell me this sort of thing does not mean Homecoming team's outlook is "We will never have similar features as other servers because it would appear we're just copying", even though many such features are long asked for requests dating back to even live.

To clarify.

 

We don't discuss other servers or what they do as they have no right of reply and while the team has nothing but good will towards them and wish them well, sometimes players get quite heated and it's unfair on them and our players are better than that. 

We also don't play on those servers, don't keep up with their updates, and have no contact with them. If they do something and we do something similar, or vice versa, it's serendipity not plagiarism. As teams we often think along the same lines and what one person thinks is a good idea others also feel the same way. We might all implement it differently, but if one person thinks of something you can guarantee someone else will too. I imagine they have done things similar to what we have done, not because they are copying us but because it makes sense and someone has put in the time to code it.

 

As a few people have said, they do their thing, we do ours. Sometimes they look similar, sometimes they don't. As a team we are glad they exist to give players a choice of flavour. The more people play the better and it's good to see the game in such good hands with other admins and devs who are as passionate about the game and player base as we are. Their choices aren't ours, but that's what makes it so much fun. It would be a sad world if we all went "Our way is the only way".

[GM Crumpet]

13 hours ago, Super Atom said:

 

oh yeah? then explain the victory server announcement.

 

checkmate

Victory was spun up in the early days by Michiyo who is a Homecoming admin. She ran the server along side Homecoming and it uses the same code and CoC as us. Eventually she found her HC duties were taking a lot more of her time and she couldn't give the players on Victory the time needed so it was decided to fold Victory into Homecoming. It's not that Victory was ever a separate thing, more that it was an early iteration that didn't collapse like a lot of the early servers. Rather than close it down and delete her players progress it was folded into HC so they carried on as before, just with a bigger player base to interact with. Unlike Vanguard (which will remain separate and act as a beta shard) Victory was identical to HC in every respect so folding it in as another shard was relatively easy. And yes, Vanguard is also under the HC umbrella. It acts as a testing ground before patches and updates go live.

Edited Friday at 12:14 PM by GM Crumpet

[Skyhawke]

25 minutes ago, GM Crumpet said:

, sometimes players get quite heated

 

 

[Greycat]

7 hours ago, Excraft said:

 

If you are suggesting that others pointing out that your statements are demonstrably wrong, then yes I would agree that others are not replying in good faith.  You're very quick to be critical of the work other servers have done and dismissing any of the excellent features they've added.  You're very quick to praise anything and everything HC has done, even when some of the items implemented here clearly fall into what you've berated other servers for as "jank".  Not everything any server has done is perfect, and that includes HC.

 

 

I've got to be honest, this sounds more like your interpretation of the comment, not what they said.

 

For instance, one of the servers has mastermind customization... which uses some hack (in the meaning of "workaround," not "bad," though it's not one I'd want to see) that uses player's costume slots. *To me,* that's janky and not a real, acceptable fix, but something that should be looked at perhaps as a beta at most to see what could or couldn't be used from the experience gained to give a better solution.

 

That does *not* mean that that same server's ... I don't know, big glowy techy wings piece, if they had it, is also janky, or that absolutely everything that and other servers do is absolute crap 100% of the time. I don't see that implied at all, much less said outright. I *do* read Glacier's post as being "Other servers are more accepting of pieces that seem more like hacky workarounds than the team and players here would be accepting of."

 

THAT's where the "replies posted in bad faith" are coming from. It's not black and white, if one thing is bad, EVERYTHING the other servers do is crap, but the statement is being replied to in that way. Or to put it another way, it's like they said "Ford's Pinto wasn't a very good car" and are being replied to as if they said "Ford has never built a good car, everything they have ever built is crap, they can't even pick a good radio." The two statements are vastly different.

[Ghost]

This whole thread is janky.

 

 

[Seed22]

2 hours ago, Greycat said:

 

I've got to be honest, this sounds more like your interpretation of the comment, not what they said.

 

For instance, one of the servers has mastermind customization... which uses some hack (in the meaning of "workaround," not "bad," though it's not one I'd want to see) that uses player's costume slots. *To me,* that's janky and not a real, acceptable fix, but something that should be looked at perhaps as a beta at most to see what could or couldn't be used from the experience gained to give a better solution.

 

That does *not* mean that that same server's ... I don't know, big glowy techy wings piece, if they had it, is also janky, or that absolutely everything that and other servers do is absolute crap 100% of the time. I don't see that implied at all, much less said outright. I *do* read Glacier's post as being "Other servers are more accepting of pieces that seem more like hacky workarounds than the team and players here would be accepting of."

 

THAT's where the "replies posted in bad faith" are coming from. It's not black and white, if one thing is bad, EVERYTHING the other servers do is crap, but the statement is being replied to in that way. Or to put it another way, it's like they said "Ford's Pinto wasn't a very good car" and are being replied to as if they said "Ford has never built a good car, everything they have ever built is crap, they can't even pick a good radio." The two statements are vastly different.

that’s a fair interpretation of the message. My pessimistic view of this certain situation makes me doubt that’s the case, only because in the past I HAVE seen how this community reacted to other servers’ costumes and additions, usually from the viewpoint of HC staunch defenders. 
 

Lots of them will trash the other server because of personal beefs or laugh at their additions and point out their jank, yet we sit here still with age old bugs and some glaring new ones with some page drops. Hell one of the pages had a litany of noticeable bugs slip into live release recently! 
 

It’s not an always type of thing, but it’s one of those “semi glass house throwing stones” type of deals. It’s a 20 yr old MMO. Some costumes may not even be possible on these antiquated models WITHOUT some jank 🙂

Edited Friday at 02:51 PM by Seed22

[tidge]

11 hours ago, biostem said:

It need not be that severe, but as the saying goes "you can sue a ham sandwich" or something to that extent.

 

"Your honor, the sandwich bit me first."

[Excraft]

2 hours ago, Greycat said:

I've got to be honest, this sounds more like your interpretation of the comment, not what they said.

 

Thank you for your honesty.  Allow me to be honest as well.  Let's take a look at what has been said and not said.

 

19 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Costume jank is my least favorite part about how other servers have made things possible. Homecoming has made plenty of quality costume additions that aren't jank.

 

I don't see any acknowledgement here that some of the work other servers have done with regard to costumes has been very good, if not better than what HC has done.  I also don't see anything in this post that says some of the costume pieces HC has added can be "janky", just like every other costume piece before it depending on use.  I completely agree with you that some of the work other servers have done and how they've implemented certain things is a bit hokey.  But you and I can both admit that that doesn't mean everything they've done is bad.

 

Here in this thread, there was never any subsequent clarification provided in follow up posts to clarify they are referring to specific costume additions/pieces on other servers, and not all of the work in its entirety.  Instead, follow up posts doubled down on how bad other costume work is on other servers, providing a list of all the costume work HC has implemented while further claiming nothing HC has added falls into a "janky" category, even when presented with examples to the contrary.  There has never been any acknowledgement by certain people that work other servers have done is quite good.

 

So no, I don't think I'm interpreting anything wrong here.  It's perfectly fine for people to have opinions and to say that some (not all) of the work other servers have done isn't of the best quality when it comes to costumes.   The same holds true here and now as it does for the original creators of the game back in the day.  It's dishonest to say every piece of work other servers have done is of poor quality.  Does some of it look whacky to me?  Sure.  Do I like all of it?  No.  Does all of it look whacky and janky?  Absolutely not.  No amount gaslighting will prove otherwise. 

Edited Friday at 03:16 PM by Excraft

[Glacier Peak]

Just now, Excraft said:

 

Thank you for your honesty.  Allow me to be honest as well.  Let's take a look at what has been said and not said.

 

I don't see any acknowledgement here that some of the work other servers have done with regard to costumes has been very good, if not better than what HC has done.  I also don't see anything in this post that says some of the costume pieces HC has added can be "janky", just like every other costume piece before it depending on use.  I completely agree with you that some of the work other servers have done and how they've implemented certain things is a bit hokey.  But you and I can both admit that that doesn't mean everything they've done is bad.

 

Here in this thread, there was any subsequent clarification provided in follow up posts to clarify they are referring to specific costume additions/pieces on other servers, and not all of the work in its entirety.  Instead, follow up posts doubled down on how bad other costume work is on other servers, providing a list of all the costume work HC has implemented while further claiming nothing HC has added falls into a "janky" category, even when presented with examples to the contrary.  There has never been any acknowledgement by certain people that work other servers have done is quite good.

 

So no, I don't think I'm interpreting anything wrong here.  It's perfectly fine for people to have opinions and to say that some (not all) of the work other servers have done isn't of the best quality when it comes to costumes.   The same holds true here and now as it does for the original creators of the game back in the day.  It's dishonest to say every piece of work other servers have done is of poor quality.  Does some of it look whacky to me?  Sure.  Do I like all of it?  No.  Does all of it look whacky and janky?  Absolutely not.  No amount gaslighting will prove otherwise. 

You are reading way too much beyond what was written and adding your own interpretation. First, stop gaslighting others in to thinking I said things I didn't. Second, re-read the very first sentence in my very first post in this entire thread. Third, if you are beyond accepting the discourse in good faith, I will respectfully ask you to choose not to engage in discussion with me. 

 

19 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Good for them.

I am happy other servers (specifically Rebirth) now has an RGB color palette. There is no negativity or disdain or outright dislike towards that or anything other servers have done. FULL STOP.

 

19 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Costume jank is my least favorite part about how other servers have made things possible.

I don't like costume jank - I don't like anything that is created as a workaround band-aid solution. I want to see things done correctly if possible or not done at all. That is my personal opinion though. I don't think others who like that are bad or wrong - that's their opinion and they are entitled to that. Just like they're entitled to have a good faith discussion with me about the positive sides (or negatives) of other servers (or Homecoming) implementing jank in costumes, which I have had with at least two other posters in this thread. 

 

19 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Homecoming has made plenty of quality costume additions that aren't jank.

I have provided an entire consolidated list of all the costume additions that Homecoming has created for everyone in this thread to read if interested. As others have pointed out, some costume options are possible which don't make sense to go together from an aesthetic standpoint, but otherwise can still occur.

[srmalloy]

20 hours ago, Snarky said:

if we were using a 8 color box of crayons and moving to an "infinite" box, that would be something.  but we are using closer to a 64 or larger.  and the more you have the less difference iy makes.

This change would have one improvement, which would either be inconsequential or major, depending on how anal you are about your costumes. As it stands now, there are cases where you can't match colors between costume pieces on different parts of your body -- you pick the same color for your pants and boots, and you can see the hard dividing line where the color is just a little off (or more than that), and no other color choice gives you a match. Sometimes moving one spot to an adjacent color works, and sometimes nothing you do will get you the match you want; being able to fine-tune the RGB value would address that.

[ZacKing]

2 hours ago, Greycat said:

I've got to be honest, this sounds more like your interpretation of the comment, not what they said.

 

I have to disagree if I'm being honest.  If you're going by the very first post, then yeah, maybe.  If you read through follow up posts made, it's pretty clear what the intent is. at least to me.  Seems like it is for others too.

 

2 hours ago, Greycat said:

For instance, one of the servers has mastermind customization... which uses some hack (in the meaning of "workaround," not "bad," though it's not one I'd want to see) that uses player's costume slots. *To me,* that's janky and not a real, acceptable fix, but something that should be looked at perhaps as a beta at most to see what could or couldn't be used from the experience gained to give a better solution.

 

That does *not* mean that that same server's ... I don't know, big glowy techy wings piece, if they had it, is also janky, or that absolutely everything that and other servers do is absolute crap 100% of the time. I don't see that implied at all, much less said outright. I *do* read Glacier's post as being "Other servers are more accepting of pieces that seem more like hacky workarounds than the team and players here would be accepting of."

 

Totally agree and it's fair to say not everything that gets added to the game is great.  That's true regardless of what server is doing it. 

 

2 hours ago, Greycat said:

THAT's where the "replies posted in bad faith" are coming from. It's not black and white, if one thing is bad, EVERYTHING the other servers do is crap, but the statement is being replied to in that way. Or to put it another way, it's like they said "Ford's Pinto wasn't a very good car" and are being replied to as if they said "Ford has never built a good car, everything they have ever built is crap, they can't even pick a good radio." The two statements are vastly different.

 

Again, that would be true if follow up posts didn't show otherwise. 

 

Anyway, to get back to the topic, it would be nice if the color pallette could get expanded here one day. 

[Perma-Newbie]

Hard disagree on color pallette / color wheel.  It makes it incredibility hard to make exact color choices for someone that is colorblind (like me).  I wouldn't mind seeing the color options expanded... but only if they stay in columns and rows.

[Excraft]

2 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

You are reading way too much beyond what was written and adding your own interpretation. First, stop gaslighting others in to thinking I said things I didn't. Second, re-read the very first sentence in my very first post in this entire thread.

 

I don't think I'm reading too much into what you originally posted or your subsequent responses.  I don't need to gaslight anyone.  Everyone can read for themselves and draw their own conclusions. 

 

2 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

There is no negativity or disdain or outright dislike towards that or anything other servers have done.

 

Except to imply that all of the costume changes implemented on Rebirth are "janky", without acknowledging that some of what they've accomplished is amazing and well done.  Can you admit that there are changes and edits made to costuming on other servers that are well done and aren't hacks?

 

2 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

I don't like costume jank - I don't like anything that is created as a workaround band-aid solution. I want to see things done correctly if possible or not done at all.

 

I don't disagree with you at all and I'd bet most people will agree with you on this.  This isn't a reason to imply as you have in your initial post that this particular change on Rebirth is poorly implemented or a band-aid without knowing anything about it.  That gives the impression everything done on other servers is hacky and poor quality, which is not always the case.

[Excraft]

49 minutes ago, Perma-Newbie said:

Hard disagree on color pallette / color wheel.  It makes it incredibility hard to make exact color choices for someone that is colorblind (like me).  I wouldn't mind seeing the color options expanded... but only if they stay in columns and rows.

 

Good point, although if this works the way it looks like it does, you may be able to enter the RGB color values for consistency.  If not, they're still displayed there so you could do an exact match.

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, Excraft said:

 

Good point, although if this works the way it looks like it does, you may be able to enter the RGB color values for consistency.  If not, they're still displayed there so you could do an exact match.

Doesn't really help people who are color blind. I have a color blind friend locally that paints and when I asked him to paint a few things like grey concrete for me, he gave me back blue and green instead. Because to him, they looked grey. The advantage of the current colors list is if you know what the different rows are, and you can see the color gradations for the colors you can see, you can at least approximate the color you are trying for even if you can't see them yourself.

[lemming]

If I was going for a redesign, the current model would still be similar.  Probably have it able to be zoomed in to get more exact, but you'd have the ability to just use the RGB numbers since that's what is used for window colors as well. (though of course, in a different way...)

 

And a saved color palette maybe for your character, so you'd know what colors are in use.

 

That would be a bit of UI work, but the costume files themselves shouldn't change "much"

[srmalloy]

52 minutes ago, lemming said:

That would be a bit of UI work, but the costume files themselves shouldn't change "much"

I just checked several of my locally-saved .costume files, and all of them already show RGB data for the colors: "Color1  255,  169,  0" and "Color2  76,  137,  255", for example. The back end would have to become a bit smarter to be able to tell if the colors for a costume piece were in the standard grid selections, or if they required the full RGB selection, with the UI displaying whichever was appropriate for a given piece, and the option to switch back and forth between the two types. But the internals of the costume files shouldn't have to change at all.

 

[TWSLives]

8 hours ago, GM Crumpet said:

To clarify.

 

We don't discuss other servers or what they do as they have no right of reply and while the team has nothing but good will towards them and wish them well, sometimes players get quite heated and it's unfair on them and our players are better than that. 

We also don't play on those servers, don't keep up with their updates, and have no contact with them. If they do something and we do something similar, or vice versa, it's serendipity not plagiarism. As teams we often think along the same lines and what one person thinks is a good idea others also feel the same way. We might all implement it differently, but if one person thinks of something you can guarantee someone else will too. I imagine they have done things similar to what we have done, not because they are copying us but because it makes sense and someone has put in the time to code it.

 

As a few people have said, they do their thing, we do ours. Sometimes they look similar, sometimes they don't. As a team we are glad they exist to give players a choice of flavour. The more people play the better and it's good to see the game in such good hands with other admins and devs who are as passionate about the game and player base as we are. Their choices aren't ours, but that's what makes it so much fun. It would be a sad world if we all went "Our way is the only way".

 

When you think about it, RGB layout mechanics are very rarely proprietary, and one will find the same mechanic duplicated among multiple programmes and apps.  Even if we don't have the exact same "button", it would be nice to have such a mechanic available to us.  My original post was not a Homecoming-vs.-Rebirth comparison, but more of a "I found a neat thing, and I think we might like to have something like it, too" thing.  I realise that it may not be on a roadmap for the game at present, but it could serve as an entry on a "nice to have" list somewhere.

[TWSLives]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

Doesn't really help people who are color blind. I have a color blind friend locally that paints and when I asked him to paint a few things like grey concrete for me, he gave me back blue and green instead. Because to him, they looked grey. The advantage of the current colors list is if you know what the different rows are, and you can see the color gradations for the colors you can see, you can at least approximate the color you are trying for even if you can't see them yourself.

 

I have to counter your assertion there, speaking as a colourblind person.  Having something like this, where one can see the RGB values, is immensely useful to someone wanting to paint a character in a specific colour that he is otherwise unable to see correctly.  At present, my option is to take a colour that would seem to work, take a snippet of it, check it against a hex colour database and then try to apply it to the nearest match on the current grids.  Using the labeled grids from the wiki does shorten the work a little, but it is still a long and drawn-out process for someone of my ilk.

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, TWSLives said:

 

When you think about it, RGB layout mechanics are very rarely proprietary, and one will find the same mechanic duplicated among multiple programmes and apps.  Even if we don't have the exact same "button", it would be nice to have such a mechanic available to us.  My original post was not a Homecoming-vs.-Rebirth comparison, but more of a "I found a neat thing, and I think we might like to have something like it, too" thing.  I realise that it may not be on a roadmap for the game at present, but it could serve as an entry on a "nice to have" list somewhere.

You're missing the point. It doesn't matter if you choose to pose a suggestion for a RGB palette wheel, RGB palette sliders, or anything else. Feel free to post suggestions for UI changes. Such things have been suggested in various forms many times over the years. It is the whole "Rebirth has a nice thing maybe we ought to have it too" bit that is getting the GM response. HC doesn't look at what the other servers have/use. HC doesn't care what the other servers have/use. HC isn't those servers. And as far as the devs themselves have indicated previously, they won't be taking anything from those servers. That doesn't mean you can't find something the other servers do to be neat and ask for something similar, it just means that specifically what any other server does isn't something discussed on HC.

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, TWSLives said:

 

I have to counter your assertion there, speaking as a colourblind person.  Having something like this, where one can see the RGB values, is immensely useful to someone wanting to paint a character in a specific colour that he is otherwise unable to see correctly.  At present, my option is to take a colour that would seem to work, take a snippet of it, check it against a hex colour database and then try to apply it to the nearest match on the current grids.  Using the labeled grids from the wiki does shorten the work a little, but it is still a long and drawn-out process for someone of my ilk.

Not sure what to say. Because the way I presented my comment is exactly how he explained his color blindness to me.

[TWSLives]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

You're missing the point.

 

Disclaimer:  Your point may not be my point.

[TWSLives]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

Not sure what to say. Because the way I presented my comment is exactly how he explained his color blindness to me.

 

Well, there you are.

[biostem]

5 minutes ago, TWSLives said:

Having something like this, where one can see the RGB values, is immensely useful to someone wanting to paint a character in a specific colour that he is otherwise unable to see correctly.

Is "4th down & 3 over" more difficult than remembering 3 separate numeric values?  I'm not against having the option to use RGB values, but this seems like a stretch...