Empathy power set in the modern City of Heroes

[Techwright]

Question:  What, to you, is the value of the Empathy power set, its "place" if you will, in the modern Homecoming environment?

 

When City of Heroes first came out, the Empathy power set made perfect sense.  It was the age of the MMO trinity:  tanking-healing-dps.  Players were not very skilled at the game yet, and a healer had constant, vital work.  This continued throughout the first run of CoH, though gradually we began to loosen our grip on a trinity approach to teaming.

 

Fast forward to today, and I'm not seeing all that much in the way of Empathic healing.  Perhaps I'm just playing on the wrong PUGs.  People are so often in "steam roller" mode now and its rare that I've observed a team without a healer going through a team wipe, or a team that at least feels like they need a healer.  Most just shrug off damage or have a rez handy.  If they kill ya, walk it off.  We even have temporary powers that can heal or rez, perhaps not as powerfully as an empath, but sufficient for the team's need.   I can see niche use of empathy when fighting high end stuff at maximum settings, but the everyday ordinary missions and TFs don't seem to need the services of an empath.  Hence my question.

 

I should point out that I'm not down on Empathy.  I've nothing against it.  It's just that the last few times I took my level 50 empath out for a night on the town, he ended up focusing on his other power set with little-to-nothing available for the empathy power set to do.  I like the character, and I'm hoping by hearing multiple opinions and their details that I might find a place for him that makes sense and makes him worth playing again.

[Oklahoman]

My first 50 on live was an Empathy defender, and the way the game was played back then I loved it. But I remember even back on live asking for the devs to look at Empathy because we could see it going the direction you describe. I'd really like to see Empathy get re-imagined for the way we play today, but I'm not holding my RAs for the team to gather (that was a tortured way of saying I'm not holding my breath).

[Agorazium]

It needs some love, probably a buff/debuff to make it competitive. There's been so much power creep with newer sets that it's arguably not even the best at healing anymore - and I know someone will say "Empathy isn't a healing set it's a buff set!!!" but other sets are better at that too. 

 

That said, I think there's value in sets that are strong pre-50 even if they don't contribute as much to fully IOd teams. I think some minor tweaks to Empathy's core powers to give it more of an identity could be nice, like a lower cooldown for Recovery Aura that could make Empathy the premier +recovery set, or higher values to Fortitude or something.

[Jiro Ito]

Fortitude is still awesome, but when you compare the RAs and AB to a set like Nature, it kind of gets lapped in the buff department, plus Nature has some debuffs thrown in.  An Empath would be great if you spend a lot of time on Positron and Yin TFs, but in the higher levels, most people I know don't need the heals, regenerations, clear minds of the set and want more +rech +dam +absorb +end.

 

Maybe if Absorb Pain were converted into a PBAOE absorb power for the team.  We could also combine the two RA powers into one, and add a new debuffing offensive power such as "debuff an enemy damage/damage resist while at the same time debuffing self damage/damage resist," in keeping with the Empath theme.

 

I had an empath defender on Live, and have one here, but I feel a lot more useful on a kin, nature, time, etc.

[lemming]

It could use some help, but it's not terrible.

 

Probably a little faster recharge on team buffs and if it did a debuff, I could see -ACC and -Dam as you make the opposition not want to hurt you as much..

[Ukase]

3 hours ago, Oklahoman said:

My first 50 on live was an Empathy defender

This was also my first 50, an emp/elec defender. I was lousy at it. Took me 540 hours to get to 50. 

Empathy now, compared to Natural and Kin...well, even though Adrenaline Boost is my favorite buff, Empathy just doesn't really serve a purpose in any content I do, except perhaps if I'm farming a damage taken badge. I might have an alt use heal other while a character sits in some lava. But I haven't gone that crazy with badges in a few years. There's probably an even slicker way to do that now. 

It can be fun to take an emp into a dfb to help out some lowbies, but to actually play one to 50? I wouldn't see the utility. Not saying it doesn't have utility, only that I don't see it. Which is just as well. You folks do not want me playing an empath. I'm just too obtuse to get you healed in a timely fashion. 

[biostem]

4 hours ago, Techwright said:

What, to you, is the value of the Empathy power set

It seems to fill the "generic support set" role rather nicely - several heal powers, buffs, the RAs, etc.  It's the stereotypical  "boring but practical" power set.  The thing is, especially for more advanced/experienced players, they don't typically need to rely upon anyone else for support, so such a dedicated power set may be a waste in their eyes...

Edited February 4 by biostem

[Kaika]

While I do think empathy is currently one of the worst support sets atm. That's not the worst place to be given how absurdly strong support sets are.

 

At high end it still has some incredibly powerful buffs, mainly in fortitude and adrenaline boost. Fortitude is pretty damn powerful being a combo To-hit/Def/Damage buff, all of these things can have alot of value in the right situation, and generally one of them is always going to be useful, with enough recharge this can be maintained on the whole team at once, though with decent effort. AB is IMO the strongest single target support buff in the entire game, 50% recharge is massive anywhere, endurance basically gets removes as a mechanic, and it gives IH to anyone practically making them immortal (especially when paired with fort) and you can maintain this on two target with high recharge. This is to say nothing of the RAs which basically give infinite end and regen to the team.

 

I find there are 3 major issue with Empathy.

1: Healing simply is not needed in large quantity, making much of the set redundant, many set are capable of filling the role of healer with a single power and powers for self sustain are a dime a dozen. Why have 4 (arguably 5) abilities that all do the same thing in slightly different ways when 1 or 2 get the job done just fine. It doesn't help that powers like regeneration aura if used well practically invalidate 3 of your other powers while active. To add to this preventing damage in the game is currently much easier and far more effective, a single cold can negate the need for healing in the first place with 3 buttons (Powerboost + ice shield + Glacial shield)(Whoops apparently that does not work) and brings far more to the table then Emp does offensively.

 

2: Empathy is far too active. Everything empathy does needs to be maintained constantly, even if you are not healing all 4 of your buffs need to be constantly cycled in order to have a real supportive impact, nothing is passive or really long lasting in this set, and the abilities that are need to be constantly cycled onto other teammates in order to do your job. Keeping fort on 7 people takes quite a bit of time, and you constantly want to be maintaining this , AB and the RAs are a bit easier but just add to this, and then if you DO need to be healing thats more time spent on pure defense, NOTHING in this set is passive. Remember CoH is a game where taking a action takes time, time you could be spending doing other actions, such as attacking enemies. Time spent healing other could be spent doing other things had the damage simply been prevented in the first place. Even if we some how reworked the game to make healing far more valuable somehow, this would likely still hold empathy back, trying to play empathy optimally takes far more effort for generally less reward then other support sets, it's the reason why buff sets had their buffs changed to apply in AoE.

 

3: It's simply outclassed by several more popular options that do what it does but better. As I said before support sets tend to be very powerful these days, one skilled defender can practically turn off damage in about 5 seconds, outside of combat that they only need to worry about every 4 minutes. That's before bringing IOs or incarnates into the mix, which can allow a team of blasters to reach immortality levels of sustainability without any support. Support these days tends to be defined more by the offensive benefits they bring to the team, while survivabilty is important, it's not difficult to achieve effective immortality before supports even get involved, and practically effortless the moment they do. It's hard to justify taking Emp over something like kin when kin can max out damage buffs perma with a single press of a button, can maintain a recharge boost on the whole party, maintain mez protection much easier, and in practical terms is just as good of a healer, if not better. On top of that, sets like nature do healing better and still has far more of a impact when healing is not needed.

 

That said, I don't think empathy as a whole is terrible, the set still can hold its own as a support and bring alot to the table, especially if its the only support. None of these issues are deal breakers, they simply hold the set back. Fort, AB, and the RAs basically pay the price of admission on all but the most sweaty of teams, and while a abundance of healing is redundant in the very rare situations where it is needed it makes for nice insurance. I feel when people can identify a imbalance easily, they tend to blow it wildly out of proportion. I would still rather have it over a set like, traps for example which, while powerful, suffers from long activation times and cooldowns, and only really can perform it's best in more drawn out fights, which tend to be rare (though TBF I don't have a ton of experience playing/playing with traps but I feel there's a reason for that ).

 

Do I think it needs a rework: DEAR GOD YES

 

Do I think it has a place in the current game: Yes of course it can carry it's weight just fine and only loses in a value comparison to other sets, that to be honest, I feel are quite a bit over-tuned. Seriously support in the game is insanely powerful and I think most people don't notice because it isn't required.

 

TLDR: It's kinda just not meta, too specialized for something not highly valued and outclassed by other options on what it does do, but it can get the job done just fine and even has its own valuable benefits, there are just better options for most situations.

Edited Sunday at 01:26 AM by Kaika
I am bad at words

[Maelwys]

Make Fortitude an AoE and add +Absorb to the Heals. Done.

[Krazix]

I've played since release, and before coh I was an eq junkie, so we'll versed in the holy Trinity.

 

CoH was such a a breath of fresh air because it really was bring the player , not the class ( at/power set).

 

There's not been a single time I've played CoH I wished for an empathy defender on the team. Even from day one they seemed like they had less to offer than many other sets. But I also mained a shaman in EQ, so I was a huge fan of debuffs.

[Uncle Shags]

There have been times when I felt my toon was too much.  I was an invincible god of destruction and it felt like I was soloing the 4x8 while everyone else was just trying to keep up.  After building an empath in mids yesterday and looking at the buffs I wonder how many of those times the team had an empath, I was the Adrenaline Boost target, and just didn't know it. 

Edited February 4 by Uncle Shags

[Maelwys]

In the olden days before crashless nukes it was considered a sign of a good Empath to have >1000% recovery in Adrenaline Boost; to let the Blaster keep on trucking after a Nova/Inferno (and if you could perma it on them they'd be your friend for life!)

It was also a sign of an attentive empath to accurately track + predict when the Tank's crashing T9 power was about to expire; and hit them with a Clear Mind and Fortitude before it dropped and a chunky Heal (Absorb Pain for preference!) just afterwards. I remember a few occasions where I was on my /Empath Controller and a friend that mained an INV Tanker (and who was skilled enough to be able to consistently time their Dull Pain activations to kick in just after their Unstoppable crashes) told me outright to stop doing such a good job of buffing/healing them because they could no longer feel even the slightest hint of danger and were missing their usual adrenaline kick.

How times have changed... 😛
 

Edited February 4 by Maelwys

[tidge]

I've never played Empathy... but I did accidentally create one on a concept character that was deleted once I realize Pain fit the concept better.

 

I think @Kaika identified what I see as the shortcomings, repeated below in my own words:

1. Most characters don't need what Empathy brings... or rather: Characters can be built to overcome the sorts of issues that Empathy can help with.
2. It is "too busy" for my taste, with a little too heavy on the ST ally buffs for my taste.

I think @biostem identified why Empathy itself is unlikely to be reworked: It is practical, but there is no getting around how boring it can be to play. The powers-that-be would have to see Empathy as under-performing AND have a somewhat personal desire to explicitly improve it AND change it in subtle ways that most likely don't involve existing characters being forced to rework their builds.

 

I do encounter a variety of Empathy-using characters "in the wild", but not that many of them.

[PoptartsNinja]

If I were to buff Empathy, I'd probably fold some of the redundant early powers together. Like Heal Other and Healing Aura. Leave Healing Aura as-is, but if you're targeting an ally they get a second pop of healing that pushes the aura amount up to match Heal Other's values. Maybe a cheeky (very small) -regen debuff if you're targeting an enemy instead. It'd have to cost more end to compensate, but I think that's fine. That's what enhancements are for.

 

With the newly opened level 2 slot, you could give them a useful single-target debuff of moderate value, like a "shared empathy" power that reduces a single target's ToHit and Damage for a bit because their heart's not in the fight anymore or something.

 

And since ressurects without any bonus features have almost no value (and people never wait to see if anyone has them anyway), sneak a heal resistance debuff into Ressurect and let it be used on living targets so people have a reason to take it. Might need a name change after, but tactically making a target take more healing (and regen) for a bit could be genuinely useful in a pinch and gives the Empath an option that isn't "wait until someone stands in the bad and dies."

[tidge]

1 hour ago, PoptartsNinja said:

And since ressurects without any bonus features have almost no value (and people never wait to see if anyone has them anyway), sneak a heal resistance debuff into Ressurect and let it be used on living targets so people have a reason to take it. Might need a name change after, but tactically making a target take more healing (and regen) for a bit could be genuinely useful in a pinch and gives the Empath an option that isn't "wait until someone stands in the bad and dies."

 

This is one area that I feel could get a straight buff (and nothing but a buff) simply to make Empathy (and Resurrect) more appealing as a 3-minute base recharge. I find it crazy that Dark Miasma builds rarely skip Howling Twilight which nominally fills the same role. Even long(er) recharge time Self Rez powers offer more than what Resurrect does.

[biostem]

2 hours ago, PoptartsNinja said:

And since ressurects without any bonus features have almost no value (and people never wait to see if anyone has them anyway), sneak a heal resistance debuff into Ressurect and let it be used on living targets so people have a reason to take it. Might need a name change after, but tactically making a target take more healing (and regen) for a bit could be genuinely useful in a pinch and gives the Empath an option that isn't "wait until someone stands in the bad and dies."

Another interesting path to take would be to have resurrect, when used on a living target, instead places a buff onto them, (for some moderate-long duration).  If that character gets defeated while they  have the buff on them, they get a prompt for an immediate revive.  This would mean that the empath can proactively prep the team just in case of a defeat.  Alternatively, what if using resurrect on a defeated player also applies a vengeance-like effect...

[Maelwys]

I think it makes thematic sense to have Empathy's resurrect represented as "extremely concentrated healing energy"... and if that level of energy gets infused into someone who is only mostly dead (at worst!) then it should end up overcharging their vitality somehow. Heck; maybe just apply the effects of Moment of Glory to them and call it a day.

[UltraAlt]

23 hours ago, Techwright said:

Fast forward to today, and I'm not seeing all that much in the way of Empathic healing. 

 

Is this in the end-game or in the game/leveling-content?

 

Honestly, there seems to be more of a focus on damage than anything else.

Empathy isn't just about healing it is also about buffing. And there you go, you make your team able to do more damage, but your character is a Defender and they are never going to be the high DPS on the team.

 

What are you seeing in regards to Defenders in general?

 

23 hours ago, Techwright said:

I should point out that I'm not down on Empathy.  I've nothing against it.  It's just that the last few times I took my level 50 empath out for a night on the town

 

There we go ... end-game content.

 

Yeah. End-gamers seems don't seem to care about healing. And, yes, the are primarily focused on DPS and ...

 

23 hours ago, Techwright said:

People are so often in "steam roller" mode now

 

... yeah ... in the end-game.

 

In the end-game, characters are usually expected to hold their own.

From what I can tell, unless you are doing a Hami or Mothership raid, the end-game teams aren't teams at all; they are just a bunch of characters acting independently in the same mission, task force, etc.

 

Back-in-the-day ... before the sunset, I am not sure I ever heard it called "steamrolling". I called it by what it looked like to me - bull-in-the-china-shop.

 

What is the point of being a defender with healing powers in the end-game when the damage dealers would rather have another damage dealer on the team?

I'm assuming to them, shields would be more useful than heals ... and corruptor shields at that.

 

In leveling-content, Defenders (any type of defender) is very helpful to a team.

Empathy does put you in a position,that you really do work best when you are a team ... and the larger the team the better.

 

23 hours ago, Techwright said:

It's just that the last few times I took my level 50 empath out for a night on the town, he ended up focusing on his other power set with little-to-nothing available for the empathy power set to do.

 

Well, if they don't need the heals or the anti-mez the you still have those long recharge time powers to buff the team

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Empathy#Fortitude

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Empathy#Recovery_Aura

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Empathy#Regeneration_Aura

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Empathy#Adrenalin_Boost

 

But I do understand that a steamrolling team isn't going to want to slow down for something as silly as faster recovery or regeneration ...

 

23 hours ago, Techwright said:

I like the character, and I'm hoping by hearing multiple opinions and their details that I might find a place for him that makes sense and makes him worth playing again.

 

Skip the end-game.

Help out on leveling teams.

Lead sub-level 35 task forces.

Your powers will be appreciated.

[Captain Fabulous]

I dunno if I would say healing is no longer necessary. Maybe on post-level 50 teams full of IOd and incarnate characters, but that's hardly the majority of the game or player builds. I think the reasons we don't see a lot of Empathy is two fold: it doesn't synergize with anything and it has a lot of competition from newer sets that have more to offer e.g. Nature and Time. I think it's also the same reason we don't see too much of Thermal or Pain either.

I think one of the ways to make Empathy and Pain more appealing would be to make all/most of the buffs AoE's and also affect the caster (something that's NEVER made sense to me). This would bring them in line with the buffs from newer sets, and unique in their ability to give the entire team full mez protection.

 

[Clave Dark 5]

I haven't finished leveling him (stalled out around 40-something), but my most recent Emp toon was actually very usual, often, to my teams, even those times I played with teams with 50s on them.

 

Like with Rezz powers, forumites like to say it's pointless these days, but they're a small percentage of the population of actual players.

[Forager]

I think @Clave Dark 5makes a great point. As forum members, of course we are all fully kitted with our own mez protection and softcapped defense. And there's no time for healing when you and your very real supergroup are steamrolling +4/x8... you're either fine or your dead, but thats why we all have our own rezzes.

 

But... if you PUG, them dudes still need h33lz

[catsi563]

Ill step up in defense of Empathy ive got an emp rad Lifeline and an emp energy Valkyrie MK X that can outright run with any team and be useful start to finish and ive literally carried a team through a couple of rough spots the combo of buffs and pure heals is matched only by pain  which runs a similar variety of single target and aoe heals and buffs

 

if I were to work empathy over a bit if make the some small qol changes

 

Regen and recovery auras make them like force fields bubbles in how theyre distrbuted perhaps gettting teammates that are spread out a little

 

add an absorb shield to heal other and healing aura might be a nice add on ill agree

 

lets forts buff be team wide would be nice same with clear mind 

 

Absorb pain have it be something that for not healing you not only does a near 100% heal but also significantly boosts the heroes regen for a time

 

all told Empathty is in my experience the strongest of the PURE healing builds it holds its own nicely the only thing empathy cant keep up with is stupid and if you run off and die on youre own thats on you you want heals stay within arms reach of the person putting them out

[twozerofoxtrot]

My spitballing offer is to give the two RAs the "reverse Regen nerf" treatment amd turn both into toggles; Pain already did this with one of the two.

 

This is not to exclude other suggestions out there.

[JJDrakken]

TLDR: Empathy and Pain are still very viable.  From 1-50. 

 

Folks who say that is isn't, probably have set teams with decked out friends or other 50s who recipe up and have incarnates.   Thing is that's still the minority of our server player base, NO ONE EVER THINKS OF THAT.

 

Everyone on forums are folks who probably deck themselves out. A lot players don't come here or barely come here, they just log into a "FREE" game and play.  Most have busy real lives that don't give them the time to do what again the minority does.

 

When your in a PuG, of various levels, builds, & experiences.  Those powers are very valid and very useful at all levels. Never assume everyone decked out like you are.  A lot are not even remotely close to that.

 

I've noticed folks tend to forget that stuff, they are use to their echo chambers here on the forums of the same faces saying the same shit over & over. When it's smaller percentage of a small percentage of our player base that lives here on the forums compared to actual player base in total.

 

So we all say same shit, smell same farts, and hear same stuff hashed out in some different way that is basically same.

Edited Saturday at 04:54 PM by JJDrakken

[NeedleChoko]

Empathy is obviously the worst support set and it is really bad in any comparison to any other support set but support sets are OP so its still not that bad if you don't compare it to other support sets.  The best power in Empathy is Fortitude.  The heals are not very good compared to other sets heals ime.