MassivelyOP's Game News Website mentioned HC regarding Toxic Positivity

[battlewraith]

12 minutes ago, High_Beam said:

But if you don't slap a new coat of paint on it or rebrand it, then it isn't yours and we all need agency?  That's the word they use now right, agency? 🙂

 

These discussions to me are the gaming community equivalent of the Geico "don't become your parents" ads.

 

"Toxic what??!?" "Why don't you just say asshole? That's a perfectly good word!" 

[Latex]

On 3/13/2025 at 11:51 PM, Sanguinesun said:

Massively Overthinking: Toxic positivity in the land of MMORPGs | Massively Overpowered

 

Article essentially discusses issues of games and toxic positivity seen by different writers on staff of the site regarding different games.

 

 

A quote from one of the staff from the site:

 

 

I know members of MassivelyOP have covered HC many times in the past and play so this is an interesting take, and I agree as a whole that toxic positivity across many different games, while its existed in the past, is increasingly becoming more and more common across the board as well.

 

What are others thoughts?

The article is spot on and it's the exact same for the majority of large private servers.

Homecoming is immune from criticism. When it comes to the people very loyal to it people forget it's... history... rather quickly and conveniently which anyone remotely invested in this community knows about already. Alas, it's the same for all Private servers and isn't limited to City of Heroes. TurtleWoW also a massive project and I believe is larger than HC has the same issues, even has a cash shop - they rely on this oppose to donations to keep the servers ticking, but are also for-profit. btw that's a cash shop I've seen people defend in public channels, if a server is private or an emulation not ran by big bad Blizzard it's fine to pay for convenience and cosmetics (bag slots, mobile bank, mobile auction house, etc). But the moment it has a corporation behind it using the same methods to make profit, it's bad.

Now, after the NCSoft deal it kind of officialises things I'd think NCSoft have stamped their logo on this project and they won't want to be taken for a ride or have their image smeared by any rogue actions by HC's owners or affiliates, so like any company, they are and should be criticised else things turn into an echo chamber of yes-men which is how things can quickly die by meeting no resistance to any choice made, that's what toxic positivity is.

Edit;
Also think the writers of the article say it's becoming more common because population counts dwindle and it's the more hardcore players who stay behind. I know friends in-game where this is the only game they'll play (which is wild to me, but each their own!) so seeing people who actually enjoy what's going on stay be toxically positive is a given, it's just how things go in any hobby, anywhere.
 

 

Edited Saturday at 04:18 PM by Latex

[tidge]

Setting aside "closed beta" private discussions... what are examples of "toxic positivity" about HC dev decisions?

 

I am aware that the changes to certain types of farming (e.g. level 49s and XP, Empyrian Merit spigot being turned off, Vanguard merit rate conversions) resulted in a relatively small number of players being very vocally opposed to all of those changes (which were not all simultaneous)... and I am aware that some players were vocally in-favor of those changes. Does this mean that one side is exhibiting"toxic negativity" and another is exhibiting "toxic positivity" for expressing an opinion on the change?

 

I'd like to see some examples of what are considered "sins" by the HC Dev team, rather than just having a small number of users self-identify as being insulting and/or feeling insulted. That sort of behavior is toxic (with varying degress of toxicity)... I don't see what the purpose of calling it "toxic positivity" or "toxic negativity" serves. From my PoV this is just an exercise in othering, here: "I judge that group of people to be toxic/dirty/stoopid, and I am superior to that other group by putting a label on them."

 

I know that the high-level Council update was poorly received by folks, but I think it was well explained. I had to make some changes in build philosophy but I don't think this was a "sin", as it was pretty well explained what the reason for that change was.

 

Is the N-star content a sin? Are D-syncs a sin? Is not allowing henchmen customization a sin? Lowering the levels at which higher tier powers are available was sinful? Not eliminating all knockback across the board is a sin? Not granting requests for 'tribute NPCs' is a sin? The quote without context is meaningless at best, with a high likelihood of simply being absurd. Was there something that was actually done that is an undefined sin, or is this just sour grapes?

[ScarySai]

Some people getting way too defensive about a passing comment.

 

Toxic positivity is definitely a thing in the CoH community.

[Captain Fabulous]

It's very interesting to see who are insisting toxic positivity is an issue here versus those who are genuinely scratching their heads over it.

Very very interesting. But not at all surprising.

[Seed22]

The people who valiantly defend this game and are toxic positivity incarnate do so probably for the reason listed above; it’s their only game. 
 

They defend it because really they have nothing else to compare it to and nowhere else to go once this thing gets shut down. 
 

So, they view all criticism as a personal attack and also are afraid if enough criticism is lobbied the people running the game might leave(I mean, I think there was an instance of a dev leaving because of a lot of criticism but that was way back in 2019-‘20) so they tend to get prickly. 

[Lines]

You should all just be happy.

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

My version of toxic positivity:  Be Excellent To Each Other . . . OR ELSE!!

 

 

Or is that more positive toxicity?  Hmmm . . . 

[Glacier Peak]

I'll have you all know I've suggested plenty of things to improve the game. And a lot of them were terrible ideas. Some of them were good ideas and they made things better for everyone. And I will continue to contribute to making this community a great place and there's nothing you can do about it!

[Crossrealms]

1 hour ago, Lines said:

You should all just be happy.

Just smile more you sure are pretty when you smile...

[golstat2003]

8 hours ago, tidge said:

Setting aside "closed beta" private discussions... what are examples of "toxic positivity" about HC dev decisions?

 

I am aware that the changes to certain types of farming (e.g. level 49s and XP, Empyrian Merit spigot being turned off, Vanguard merit rate conversions) resulted in a relatively small number of players being very vocally opposed to all of those changes (which were not all simultaneous)... and I am aware that some players were vocally in-favor of those changes. Does this mean that one side is exhibiting"toxic negativity" and another is exhibiting "toxic positivity" for expressing an opinion on the change?

 

I'd like to see some examples of what are considered "sins" by the HC Dev team, rather than just having a small number of users self-identify as being insulting and/or feeling insulted. That sort of behavior is toxic (with varying degress of toxicity)... I don't see what the purpose of calling it "toxic positivity" or "toxic negativity" serves. From my PoV this is just an exercise in othering, here: "I judge that group of people to be toxic/dirty/stoopid, and I am superior to that other group by putting a label on them."

 

I know that the high-level Council update was poorly received by folks, but I think it was well explained. I had to make some changes in build philosophy but I don't think this was a "sin", as it was pretty well explained what the reason for that change was.

 

Is the N-star content a sin? Are D-syncs a sin? Is not allowing henchmen customization a sin? Lowering the levels at which higher tier powers are available was sinful? Not eliminating all knockback across the board is a sin? Not granting requests for 'tribute NPCs' is a sin? The quote without context is meaningless at best, with a high likelihood of simply being absurd. Was there something that was actually done that is an undefined sin, or is this just sour grapes?

Yeah it feels like folks are just talking around the edges of things. If there is some specific sin, come out and say it.

And banning certain people from

beta because they were outright insulting to the devs to me is not a sin. You get the energy you put out. Or as my generation (40 and older say) “fuck around and find out”.

Edited yesterday at 12:30 AM by golstat2003

[golstat2003]

With that said there are a ton of things HC has done that I outright think were bad decisions:

 

The Council Revamp

Some of the changes having to do with the EMPs and conversions

A very few specific changes to powersets

Adding yet another currency system in a games nearing bloat on them

Special costumes locked behind a high cost. (Related to the previous new currency).

The change to how many folks are allowed in the Hive/Hamidon encounter

 

I could go on.

 

Does that mean I think they are sins? No. They are just changes I disagree with.

 

I don’t expect them to always do things I like. I don’t expect them to even implement 1% of whatever is suggested in Suggestions and Feedback forum.

 

Calling something or anything they do, that I don’t like a Sin seems a little overdramatic to me. Seems toxicly negative to me.

 

And folks should be able to give feedback all they want. Want you don’t have is the right to expect folks on a public (or private for beta) forum to not tell you why they think you’re wrong.

With all of that said I still prefer HC’s slow, methodical approach that focuses on proper testing and not just breaking stuff for shots and giggles, to COH over some other servers by a mile.

 

EDIT: changes for clarity and typos

 

 

Edited yesterday at 12:22 AM by golstat2003

[High_Beam]

Four pages and we are only now getting this?

 

 

[ScarySai]

15 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

With all of that said I still prefer HC’s slow, methodical approach that focuses on proper testing

 

Lol.

 

Anyway, this thread seems to be beating a dead horse at this point.

[JasperStone]

I forget who posted this here .... much thanks to them

https://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/96091066151/understanding-the-angry-gamer

 

[golstat2003]

41 minutes ago, JasperStone said:

I forget who posted this here .... much thanks to them

https://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/96091066151/understanding-the-angry-gamer

 

This is a perfect summation of all these discussions.

[PeregrineFalcon]

4 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

This is a perfect summation of all these discussions.

No it isn't.

 

That link was posted in an effort to insult those of us who are insisting that toxic positivity is or was a problem in this community. This was posted in order to frame us as immature, angry, children who are screaming at the devs, when the truth is that we're adults who are simply and calmly discussing this situation. You just don't like what we have to say, and rather than discuss the points you're attacking the character of the people on the other side of the argument. That's the Ad Hominem logical fallacy.

 

Don't worry though. The moderators are quietly helping you out by deleting certain posts in this thread that don't actually violate the rules. So hey, at least they're on your side.

[Forager]

7 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Don't worry though. The moderators are quietly helping you out by deleting certain posts in this thread that don't actually violate the rules. So hey, at least they're on your side.

 

Lol ok I thought I was trippin...

[Forager]

On 3/15/2025 at 9:38 AM, tidge said:

It is a real stretch to call out "positivity" as being toxic...

 

That's probably why nobody has.

 

(Mods: is this version ok? Or are we deleting every attempt to address the actual point of the thread?)

[PeregrineFalcon]

Just now, Forager said:

Lol ok I thought I was trippin...

Nope. You saw it too, didn't you? I hope you got screenshots as I did.

 

It seems really weird to me that the moderators are deleting posts that aren't insulting anyone and don't break the rules in anyway. And I wonder if they even realize that by doing that they're literally proving my point for me.

[ivanhedgehog]

On 3/14/2025 at 8:14 AM, ScarySai said:

There was a lot of it on closed beta. Assume it's still the case.

thats why I dont bother with closed beta. They dont want actual feedback, and have in the past actually delete people pointing out problems. Do I like HC? hell yes. Do I think everything the devs have changed has been good? Hell no. Volunteer or not, they are still human.

[ivanhedgehog]

On 3/14/2025 at 6:56 PM, shortguy on indom said:

• I NEED TO KNOW HOW SKYNET GETS BUILT.

the hip bones connected to the..leg bone

[ScarySai]

2 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Nope. You saw it too, didn't you? I hope you got screenshots as I did.

 

It seems really weird to me that the moderators are deleting posts that aren't insulting anyone and don't break the rules in anyway. And I wonder if they even realize that by doing that they're literally proving my point for me.

 

Noted a pretty harmless post of mine being deleted, can't help but wonder WTF the mods are doing.

 

It's like they are incapable of just letting a conversation play out without taking the worst stance possible.