Focused Feedback: Powerset - Dark Miasma

[Super Atom]

44 minutes ago, macskull said:

It’s also a useful tool for removing specific targets from a fight.

 

and beanbag is good for levels 3-10 content

 

for real though i'll take some intang over full intang anyday.

 

🫢

Edited June 8 by Super Atom

[Snarky]

I am done with this topic.  Planning on two things happening,

1) HC dropping this thing pretty much like they have it.

2) never taking it

 

Auf Wiedersehen!

[macskull]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

you are quite the impressive player.

Thanks!

 

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

most of us will cast it, be a little shocked about who gets trawled, who gets intangible, how pissed the team gets, and will be kicked by about the 5th application

You shouldn’t be, there are very few critters immune to repel outside of AVs and GMs. In other words, if you cast new Black Hole on almost any cluster of critters you’re going to get the new succ behavior while those of us who use the intangibility effect on specific targets will continue to be able to do so. Everyone wins except the people who go through the game without bothering to learn how it works, and we shouldn’t really be catering to the lowest common denominator now, should we?

[BZRKR]

After testing Black Hole for a bit in Khalisti Wharf on a lvl 50 Storm/Dark Corruptor with a full load of IOs, I didn't notice any enemies being phased. In fact for most groups, everything got yanked into the center, and then turned on me before I could get Tar Patch and Cat 5 going. When I used Black Hole after dropping the patches, it did okay pulling things back into the debuffs and damage. I think I expected the "trawl" duration to be longer. Is it somehow buffable through slotting?

 

A big thing that I noticed is that Black Hole does nothing to prevent a single runner from running. Maybe they get inconvenienced for that 0.75 seconds, but the result is that you need a different tool for the job. (Warriors Bosses need hard controls to keep them from running off if they decide they're scared of you)

 

All in all, after testing it, I think it's an interesting but skippable power.

[Shin Magmus]

14 hours ago, Super Atom said:

 

and beanbag is good for levels 3-10 content

 

   My AR Defender can't take Beanbag till lv16, so I guess it is mathematically never good.

[Super Atom]

49 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

   My AR Defender can't take Beanbag till lv16, so I guess it is mathematically never good.

 

[macskull]

8 hours ago, Snarky said:

because i am trying to learn how it works.  and rest comfortably, i am bothered.

It would seem like you already are learning how to use it, and you’re learning there are some critters it doesn’t work with… which means in those few situations the power isn’t more useful than it used to be, but in every other situation… it is.

[Kai Moon]

I'll keep my design opinion to myself. Others in this thread argue it better than I can. Just my observations.

 

1. Against most enemies, there's a <2-second, likely 0.75-second, unenhanceable immob and trawl, with no further effects.

2. Unlike most mezzes, the immob magnitude is affected by relative level. Mag 2.7 vs +1s, for example. That leads to low magnitude as well as low duration in normal gameplay.

3. The effect and duration can be drastically different against other enemies within the same spawn. 30-second intang vs 0.75-second trawl.

 

And some text bugs/typos:

 

1. User's combat log says "intangible" for trawled, non-intangible targets. Target's combat log also says "intangible" in that case. Both logs have doubled messages.

2. Black Hole's short description says "Intangible". It's not intangible against most enemies.

3. "immunie" -> "immune"

 

EDIT: This was on a defender. Sorry, didn't realize other AT versions were different.

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 09:52 PM by Kai Moon
defender

[GM Crumpet]

Please keep the comments to the topic on hand and don't start arguments with each other. Thanks.

[Snarky]

i am out.  this is confusing, annoying, and in the end pointless.  They will make it whatever and i will continue to not use it.

 

 

[macskull]

2 hours ago, Kai Moon said:

2. Unlike most mezzes, the immob magnitude is affected by relative level. Mag 2.7 vs +1s, for example. That leads to low magnitude as well as low duration in normal gameplay.

I am not at a computer to check numbers, but if the magnitude is affected by purple patch then the duration is not, and vice versa. It might be worthwhile to consider allowing immobilize enhancements if the actual succ duration is too short to be useful.

[Videra]

For all my occasional frustration with CPH and the powers crew, I find that this is a phenomenal change. Thank you!

Edited June 9 by Videra

[Shin Magmus]

9 hours ago, macskull said:

I am not at a computer to check numbers, but if the magnitude is affected by purple patch then the duration is not, and vice versa. It might be worthwhile to consider allowing immobilize enhancements if the actual succ duration is too short to be useful.

   Since this power currently only accepts basic enhancements, it would probably be a better solution and use of dev time (and player slots), to just make the strong single target Immobilize effect on the primary target of Black Hole have correct flags: ignore enemy level difference, etc.  They can scale this effect up since it is unenhanceable, and not tie it to the Intangibility side-version of Black Hole.  Both the Trawl Black Hole and the Intang Black Hole should reliably Immobilize a boss or lower, for a base duration of like 30s.  I think what's going on here is that they've split the effects of the power in 2 but tied both to the Immobilize duration, so the Immobilize is short because the Trawl is short.  You absolutely do not want the enemy to be mobile at all during the Trawl.

 

   And if the enemy can move to mess up the effect, it also stands to reason that they can be moved by others to mess up the effect.

Full suggestion solution: primary target of Black Hole should instantly be affected by both an unresistible Immobilize and a 10,000% resistance to all KB, both of which ignore enhancements and level differences, for at least as long as the maximum duration of the Trawl effect.  This is to ensure that the target cannot be moved during the Trawl to cause unintended wanton chaos and enemy scattering.

Edited June 9 by Shin Magmus

[twozerofoxtrot]

2 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

And if the enemy can move to mess up the effect, it also stands to reason that they can be moved by others to mess up the effect.

Full suggestion solution: primary target of Black Hole should instantly be affected by both an unresistible Immobilize and a 10,000% resistance to all KB, both of which ignore enhancements and level differences, for at least as long as the maximum duration of the Trawl effect.  This is to ensure that the target cannot be moved during the Trawl to cause unintended wanton chaos and enemy scattering.

This is a much-needed modification to the power change.

We've seen a lot in this Page's open beta how changes to powers (or ATs) have resulted in perceived fringe cases to become the norm. Shin brings up a valid point here, it should be thoughtfully assessed.

Otherwise some jerkass player with +KB slotted Power Push is going to have a field day wombo-comboing a mob into oblivion.
 

Spoiler

It's me, that player is me.

 

[dukedukes]

17 hours ago, Kai Moon said:

1. Against most enemies, there's a <2-second, likely 0.75-second, unenhanceable immob and trawl, with no further effects.

It lasts much longer than 2 seconds, it's 15 seconds, maybe reduced by purple patch, i haven't tested. What you're observing is only enemies near your target are affected by the power when it is initially used, the enemies stick together and don't move much, meanwhile other enemies entering what is the black hole radius are not affected by black hole at all. The power would be much stronger if it affected new targets entering its radius like with Singularity. Given the cooldown and only 20 ft radius I think black hole could be afforded this behaviour. As is Singularity is infinitely better than black hole, affecting new enemies might get black hole measured up to Singularity's ankles.

Regarding immobilize repel/trawl work best with aoe immobilize powers anyway, so you'd probably want one using this.

[Captain Powerhouse]

The effect is meant to be 0.75s. I just noticed a bug in the Controller version exclusively lasting longer than intended, this was already fixed internally. This power is not being redesigned to keep enemies controlled, but to clump them up in a one-off pull. If the player wants them to stay there, they need to use other powers they or their teammates have to keep them there.

  

19 hours ago, Kai Moon said:

. Against most enemies, there's a <2-second, likely 0.75-second, unenhanceable immob and trawl, with no further effects.

 

This is an artifact of its implementation. All effects are applied when you use the power, but the Intangible/immob effect is canceled instantly IF the target gets moved by the pull effect. The Immob/Intangibility you are seeing lasts only one server tick.

[Shin Magmus]

27 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

The effect is meant to be 0.75s. I just noticed a bug in the Controller version exclusively lasting longer than intended, this was already fixed internally. This power is not being redesigned to keep enemies controlled, but to clump them up in a one-off pull. If the player wants them to stay there, they need to use other powers they or their teammates have to keep them there.

  

 

This is an artifact of its implementation. All effects are applied when you use the power, but the Intangible/immob effect is canceled instantly IF the target gets moved by the pull effect. The Immob/Intangibility you are seeing lasts only one server tick.

   So... every time you use Black Hole it's going to give the targets one tick of Intangibility... more than 1 frame at 60 FPS but basically giving them brief i-frames?  Doesn't that mean it's inevitable that someone is going to whiff their Benumb or Heat Exhaustion etc. into an unlucky Black Hole by their teammate?  It's going to be infrequent, but statistically it will also be guaranteed to happen some of the time.

[dukedukes]

23 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

The effect is meant to be 0.75s. I just noticed a bug in the Controller version exclusively lasting longer than intended, this was already fixed internally.

If black hole is meant to be like a 20ft targeted aoe axe cyclone the cooldown is excessive. At 170% global recharge (95% on power) the cooldown is close to 30 sec which isn't too bad but I think only people going for perma-fade would hit this. Reaching 30 sec with moderate global recharge (~120%) would feel better to invest into to me, that should be around a 90 sec cd instead of 120.

[arcane]

I’ve prepped my respec builds for my Dark/Dark Controller and Dark/Storm Defender. In both I just slotted this with two Recharge IO’s. Sound good?

[Kai Moon]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

I’ve prepped my respec builds for my Dark/Dark Controller and Dark/Storm Defender. In both I just slotted this with two Recharge IO’s. Sound good?

I didn't play with the power "for real", but while trying to get video for my post, I missed a lot, and had to swap out a rech for an acc.

 

No sets. So this is going to be one of those expensive Provocation powers, which is interesting given its short-lived and possible accidental-grief effects.

Edited Monday at 08:23 PM by Kai Moon

[Troo]

20 hours ago, Kai Moon said:

which is interesting given its short-lived and possible accidental-grief effects.

 

wait, are you saying AoE get-over-here powers can be super annoying to other players and adding more of them is exasperated by the fact that many who are prioritizing their play over the team's play don't necessarily take the time to level up traditionally and as such don't learn how to use powers effectively while instead PUG learn in weekly task forces.. oh my gosh where is my paper bag.

 

Spoiler

sarcasm and still troo

 

Testing

Just want to make sure I have this correct: 

Working as intended (WAI) is trawling targets to the target's location one time, not continuously. Any not-trawled targets will be phased but not held or immobilized.

 

Spoiler

Dark Miasma

 Black Hole 

• This power now applies a trawl (reverse repel) effect.
• Targets that are immune to the trawl effect will be phased.

 

Opens up a Black Hole to the Netherworld that temporarily pulls in all foes within its grasp. Victims that are immune to the pull become phase shifted and are completely intangible. They are hard to see, and cannot affect or be affected by those in normal space.

 

Tested Defender in Siren's Call large spawns (2 Rech, No Acc): 

Attempt 1 - All targets except Boss get sucked to target BUT Boss did not get phased.

Attempt 2 - Used Buildup. All targets including Boss get sucked to target.

Attempt 3 - Instadeath

Attempt 4 - Instadeath

 

Tried Tar Patch > Black Hole > Fear then fight the Boss.

Tried Fear > Black Hole.. instadeath

 

Maybe there is an intended tactic that works better.

 

Did not see anyone get phased, just really pissed off. Maybe targeting through a Tank this power works.

 

Note: The 60' range on this power puts me in danger range and the aggro it draws.. oof! It's an interesting tweak. Solo, I think I'm skipping it.

 

Edited Tuesday at 05:06 PM by Troo
added stuff

[LastHumanSoldier]

I thought the controller behaviour was the correct one.
Dropped plans to incorporate this into my builds. 

[Shin Magmus]

46 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

wait, are you saying AoE get-over-here powers can be super annoying to other players and adding more of them is exasperated by the fact that many who are prioritizing their play over the team's play don't necessarily take the time to level up traditionally and as such don't learn how to use powers effectively while instead PUG learn in weekly task forces.. oh my gosh where is my paper bag.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

   Your bad-faith comparison unfortunately missed the original point I made, which is being referenced here.  I'll copy/paste it:

 

   So... every time you use Black Hole it's going to give the targets one tick of Intangibility... more than 1 frame at 60 FPS but basically giving them brief i-frames?  Doesn't that mean it's inevitable that someone is going to whiff their Benumb or Heat Exhaustion etc. into an unlucky Black Hole by their teammate?  It's going to be infrequent, but statistically it will also be guaranteed to happen some of the time.

[mistagoat]

1 hour ago, LastHumanSoldier said:

I thought the controller behaviour was the correct one.
Dropped plans to incorporate this into my builds. 

Having only tested this a troller I though the same thing. 

 

If one were a solo/duo troller who ran up on a x8 mob that was spaced out more than you'd like, this works great after you've feared and immobilized the mob to gather them up tightly for additional AOEs. It's a bit of waste to use it before mobs are locked down as they will just keep moving.

 

I've tested it against a fairly wide array of (blue side) enemies and it's been consistent in never applying intangible to any enemy below an EB. It has also been consistent in applying intangible to any enemy EB and up. I can't say for certain if there was ever a tick of intangible at the beginning, if there was it was not visible and it never interfered with my next power cast. I was solo so can't speak to the potential of negating another players powers.

 

I like the power quite a bit if I'm solo or playing with a trusted team but I still absolutely do not trust Intangible powers and fear this could end up being a nerf to PUGs.

 

Edited Tuesday at 05:59 PM by mistagoat
edit: testing was done on latest build

[arcane]

21 hours ago, Kai Moon said:

I didn't play with the power "for real", but while trying to get video for my post, I missed a lot, and had to swap out a rech for an acc.

 

No sets. So this is going to be one of those expensive Provocation powers, which is interesting given its short-lived and possible accidental-grief effects.

Does it just need the same accuracy as everything else? I normally build for 95% chance to hit +3 before accuracy enhancements when I can so that wouldn’t be a problem.

 

Or are you saying it has special accuracy concerns like when certain pets and pseudopets don’t inherit your accuracy and tohit values and needs the additional slotting regardless of your stats.