Focused Feedback: Powerset - Plant Control

[ExeErdna]

3 hours ago, macskull said:

I also don’t think the “boo hoo you can’t proc bomb Seeds anymore” comments hold any water because 1) it only holds 2-3 procs and 2) who’s going to pass up the purple confuse set for procs? Today is first time I’ve ever heard of people slotting Seeds that way, so I can’t imagine it’s something many people actually did.

I used it like that because I didn't have the merits or the money to buy the purple set. It was a cheap option that I just stuck with. I 5 slotted Malaise with Cacophony's proc. I rather have the damage with the confusion being a cherry on top. Since I never found that much success with the purple set later on compared to the damage.  

[ApolloInferno]

16 hours ago, ApolloInferno said:

Some basic Number Crunching for Seed of Confusion!

 

---

Test Parameters:

- Confuse Cimeroran groups in first mission of ITF (8x) and wait for all but 1 to kill each other.

- Soft cap defense before confuse.

- Fold space after first Confuse and continue to use confuse until last enemy is left.

- Repeat with 50,52, and 54 enemies (both Test and Live)

- Goal is to get Confuse count and Damage Taken values to gauge the effectiveness of the taunt.

---

 

Result: Enemy groups can be confused at or above the 80% threshold to avoid deadly damage from first strike in most cases with Test Build 2.  Damage taken ranged from 10-30% more with extended engagements.

 

Opinion: Adaptive Recharge on the power seems to be the right choice for the power. Test Build 2 Seeds is fuctioning well in most senarios and the power does what it needs to do. With one exception: long engagements with large groups or enemies that are resistent to confuse. It stuggles more under this current build of seeds due to the combination of changes. In my opinion, it is slightly below the breakpoint of a "AoE Control" power with its target cap at 10. Suggest adding 2 more targets to target cap, it might be able to confuse resistant boss targets or affect large enough groups of enemies to affectively Control the group. This proposed change does assume that every dominator will use Contagious Confusion since the power cant funtion without it now. Which is also the issue, aince before target cap reduction the power could function as a control power without contagious confusion. Not sure if you wanted to reduce dependence on procs as it is only required now because the target cap is too low for most 8x groups.

 

Again all of these changes were tested using my Dominator. 

 

Hope this helps!

 

 Just want to make sure I clarify so I'm sure people understand:

 

Live Version of Seeds is confusing the whole group. When adding the Contagious Confusion and short Recharge, it was very easy to stack the confuse through the mez resistance that the Cimeroran enemies get when they activate Shout of Command. In my opinion, Power in this format can be built with or without Contagious Confusion and still function as a control power.

 

Test Ver 2 Seeds confuses most of the group. But this is an important distinction. With many cimeroran groups having more then 10 enemies to hit, I could randomly die despite using control power in same way. This version forces you to do a pre mez or a follow up mez to be consistent (Vines or Spore Burst). This version of Seeds is also not up each group (even with adaptive recharge) so you really need to have a second AoE mez on reserve for the next group (otherwise I would die). Contagious Confusion was required for me to confuse the group and it would fix the issue most of the time. But procs rate and cone range would limit me and I would randomly die depending on the situation.

 

In my opinion, it can be frustratingly random with how this version of seeds fails. If I were to guess the reduction of target cap on a cone is a dbl headed nerf because your limited on how many targets you can hit anyway with the arc degree and range. Vs the new Mez Patches and Targeted Aoe Mez  options are superior to it in everyway now. Kinda no reason to use this power with just the sleep or holds being better. And after I test Vines I expect those 2 will be better and dropping seeds might be an option.

 

Seeds cap just can't be 10 if you want to use it. It needs to be higher then that or reverted to 16.

 

 

Edited May 31 by ApolloInferno

[ExeErdna]

3 minutes ago, ApolloInferno said:

 Just want to make sure I clarify so I'm sure people understand:

 

Live Version of Seeds is confusing the whole group. When adding the Contagious Confusion and short Recharge, it was very easy to stack the confuse through the mez resistance that the Cimeroran enemies get when they activate Shout of Command. In my opinion, Power in this format can be built with or without Contagious Confusion and still function as a control power.

 

Test Ver 2 Seeds confuses most of the group. But this is an important distinction. With many cimeroran groups having more the 10 enemies to hit I could randomly die depite using contol power in same way. This version forces you to do a pre mez or a follow up mez to be consistent. The power even with adaptive recharge is also not up each group so you really need to have a second AoE mez on reserve for the next group (otherwise i would die). Contagious Confusion would fix the issue most of the time but procs and the cone would randomly fail me depending on the situation.

 

In my opinion, it can be frustratingly random with how seeds fails. If i were to guess the reduction of target cap on a cone is a dbl headed nerf because your limited on how many targets you can hit anyway with the arc degree and range. Vs the new mez patches and targets Aoe mez are superior to it in everyway now. Kinda no reason to use this power with just the sleep being better. And after i test holds i expect those 2 will be better and dropping seeds might be an option.

 

Seeds cap just cant be 10 if you want to use it. It needs to be higher then that or reverted to 16.

 

 

This is something I've noticed it isn't as consistent. It's kinda why I liked using Malaise over the Purple because it has range which can get to like 67.4 ish feet with an alpha helping it out. That extra 17 feet can help with that cleave. I also agree it seems like Spores is just better than Seeds atm

[Crysis]

On 5/28/2025 at 1:10 PM, Saarei said:

I don’t really see how plant’s selling point being two great powers is really such a problem? Many times I pick sets because of a few really good powers.

 

I have 3-4 Poison characters using only 2-3 powers from the primary.  That just lets me take all kinds of attacks from the secondary/pool.  Which AFAIK is what was intended....you can take/slot stuff as much/little as you want.  Hellllloooo petless masterminds?

But apparently, in the case of Plant at least, no.....wasn't intended to be this way.  Plant/Fire was such a powerful combo specifically because you could take almost all the Fire powers and Pyro stuff from pools.  Now, you are meant to lean into Plant powers.  

 

I think these changes across the board are intended to push players to build/play "a certain way," not open up options.

[Uun]

1 hour ago, Crysis said:

But apparently, in the case of Plant at least, no.....wasn't intended to be this way.  Plant/Fire was such a powerful combo specifically because you could take almost all the Fire powers and Pyro stuff from pools.  Now, you are meant to lean into Plant powers.  

I'm in a similar place with Plant/Martial/Ice, trying to figure out which of Spore Burst, Spirit Tree and/or Vines to add to my build and what to give up to fit them in. 

[WindDemon21]

On 5/29/2025 at 6:15 PM, Championess said:

Adaptive Recharge will do well for Seeds.  This change achieves their balancing of larger engagements while whitling fights down Seeds will be served well with the faster recharge.  Good compromise.

Just as a note, adaptive recharge on seeds effectively does almost nothing. Since you're going to almost always use it on a big mob it's going to pretty much always be at it's recharge cap. The main is is still  going to heavily be the dumb nerf to it's target cap. Increasing the recharge fine, lowering the duration fine (though not as much as they did), but that target cap 100% needs to remain 16 for it to be actually effective on the mob. Otherwise it's not going to be doing it's actual job of mitigating the mob and will always only be a kinda useless half measure. Upping the recharge and lowering it's duration is already a HUGE nerf to the power, let's not plain ruin it altogether. Also on the point of what this does to builds, now having to take at least one if not two or three more powers that will take up power choices, AND a ton of power slots to make work now too. This is just going too far.

[WindDemon21]

1 hour ago, Crysis said:

 

I have 3-4 Poison characters using only 2-3 powers from the primary.  That just lets me take all kinds of attacks from the secondary/pool.  Which AFAIK is what was intended....you can take/slot stuff as much/little as you want.  Hellllloooo petless masterminds?

But apparently, in the case of Plant at least, no.....wasn't intended to be this way.  Plant/Fire was such a powerful combo specifically because you could take almost all the Fire powers and Pyro stuff from pools.  Now, you are meant to lean into Plant powers.  

 

I think these changes across the board are intended to push players to build/play "a certain way," not open up options.

Just a note, this is also more saying how terrible poison is  that those 3-4 powers are the only ones even worth taking, and they still only do so much. Poison VERY much needs the TA treatment. But the rest of the statement yes, that's what made plant so nice was not needing to delve so heavily into it if you didn't want to, but there was always still a good amount of reason to pick up the other powers if you WANTED. Again, this is just making a more forced path you'll HAVE to take to be effective, ruining the fun of a more open build to get other stuff that you'd want. Which, in respect of what the game is SUPPOSED to be, is not fun. Seeds can still have the "own the mob" ability. The 16 target cap needs to stay, but that longer recharge and shorter duration means it remains more of the opener rather than spamming it on multiple mobs at the same time, which let's not act like that in itself is already not a HUGE nerf to the power.

[arcane]

I don’t understand this bullshit argument about “I’ll die if 6 of 16 enemies can attack me”. I build for like 0% resistance and 5% defense and even I smell some bullshit. 

[arcane]

38 minutes ago, Uun said:

I'm in a similar place with Plant/Martial/Ice, trying to figure out which of Spore Burst, Spirit Tree and/or Vines to add to my build and what to give up to fit them in. 

Ultimately I think many of my Controllers/Dominators will have to drop their 4th pool (usually Leadership for Controllers and Concealment for Dominators).

Edited May 31 by arcane

[Crysis]

1 minute ago, arcane said:

I don’t understand this bullshit argument about “I’ll die if 6 of 16 enemies can attack me”. I build for like 0% resistance and 5% defense and even I smell some bullshit. 

 

 

In +4/x8 solo?  I'm guessing it has to be if you are facing spawns of 16 at a time.

 

I mean using respites and the like, against some types of critters, I'll also survive against 6 attackers simultaneously when playing a Dominator.  But doing this consistently without dying?  Just depends on what I'm facing.

[WindDemon21]

5 minutes ago, arcane said:

I don’t understand this bullshit argument about “I’ll die if 6 of 16 enemies can attack me”. I build for like 0% resistance and 5% defense and even I smell some bullshit. 

It's called ineffectual control, especially since you can't at least tell it to "not hit the bosses which it wouldn't confuse anyway". Maybe if there was at least a way to designate it hitting lieutenants first (similar to how chain lighting from elec affinity chooses to do either players or pets first) that would help the issue. But that 10, is easily lowered to 8 if it hits the bosses on a controller and then is doing even less. At least with the shorter recharge/longer duration you could hit them again the next pass, but this triple nerf just goes too far. Edit: again, with the main issue being the target cap, to at least start the fight ,then let creepers/sleep pick up the s lack when the confuse wears off, but that 16 target cap is still pretty key. Not to mention, there are lots of fights where there are more than 16 enemies, DE and rikti are ones that come to mind very quickly.

Edited May 31 by WindDemon21

[arcane]

Just now, WindDemon21 said:

It's called ineffectual control, especially since you can't at least tell it to "not hit the bosses which it wouldn't confuse anyway. Maybe if there was at least a way to designate it hitting lieutenants first (similar to how chain lighting from elec affinity chooses to do either players or pets first) that would help the issue. But that 10, is easily lowered to 8 if it hits the bosses on a controller and then is doing even less. At least with the shorter recharge/longer duration you could hit them again the next pass, but this triple nerf just goes too far.

So to be clear, you guys fight 6-8 baddies with the help of 8-10 confused baddies and die often? 

[WindDemon21]

3 minutes ago, arcane said:

So to be clear, you guys fight 6-8 baddies with the help of 8-10 confused baddies and die often? 

I have teams often where control isn't needed at all in the first place (which again, late game, control is so easily not needed that to nerf it is unwarranted in it's own right. So this is easily missing the point. The point being when you need/want the control it's just lacking there now for what the power is supposed to do. A main part still again, is that you can't specify WHICH of  those 16 targets the 10 that get hit are. Which since that's something that can't really be fixed unless what i mentioned about at least making it take precedent on the lieutenants first, bosses last etc, then just keeping the higher cap, and still having it's rech/duration nerfed, still results in a worthy enough nerf to the power.

Edited May 31 by WindDemon21

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

I appreciate that all of you are passionate about Plant control.  But could you please comment on what you like or don't like about the power changes.  Even better if that is backed up with some testing results.

 

Arguing back and forth is unwelcome in the focused feedback threads.  Feel free to create a separate thread for a wider discussion.

 

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, Crysis said:

 

 

In +4/x8 solo?  I'm guessing it has to be if you are facing spawns of 16 at a time.

The game is not, has never been, and should not be balanced around soloing team content.

[ExeErdna]

2 hours ago, arcane said:

I don’t understand this bullshit argument about “I’ll die if 6 of 16 enemies can attack me”. I build for like 0% resistance and 5% defense and even I smell some bullshit. 

 

You're misunderstanding the point on purpose, When you open with a confusion IT SHOULD WORK. Which goes back to me saying knockdown is more of a consistent CC. Since now AOE Confusion is barely doing its job outside of Arsenal. Instead of fighting each other, I get hit. 

[Vinceq98]

Im at work right now and also having some issues recording my games but I definitely plan on firing up the new build and test out Vines new lower recharge. With that change I truly believe we won't even need Seeds of Confusion.

 

That is wild to type out in 2025 but here we are. Seeds and synaptic overload had to die for the revival of Controllers using their AOE holds. This wasn't in the bingo card for sure but I'm ALL FOR THiS CHANGE!!!  Spore burst as deep sleep and the placate buff + a quick recharging Vines is all the control plant needs now and then go straight into debuffing or blasting depending on your archetype.

 

However can you just give a small damage buff to carrion creeper please?? Since the containment dmg is only 33% on the dot attack. Please give back plant controls identity of a high damage control set with a small buff to carrion creepers damage.  Because dominators don't get that containment damage benefit at all.

[ApolloInferno]

47 minutes ago, Vinceq98 said:

Im at work right now and also having some issues recording my games but I definitely plan on firing up the new build and test out Vines new lower recharge. With that change I truly believe we won't even need Seeds of Confusion.

 

That is wild to type out in 2025 but here we are. Seeds and synaptic overload had to die for the revival of Controllers using their AOE holds. This wasn't in the bingo card for sure but I'm ALL FOR THiS CHANGE!!!  Spore burst as deep sleep and the placate buff + a quick recharging Vines is all the control plant needs now and then go straight into debuffing or blasting depending on your archetype.

 

However can you just give a small damage buff to carrion creeper please?? Since the containment dmg is only 33% on the dot attack. Please give back plant controls identity of a high damage control set with a small buff to carrion creepers damage.  Because dominators don't get that containment damage benefit at all.

 

I need to test Vines still personally. But I plan on dropping Seeds from build under these changes. Its not particularly a good or bad thing; its just not good anymore with better options (which as an aside the confusion set bonus not as good as the sleep and hold options)

 

I'm assuming that the power changes were to make Seeds less OP and more inline with other control powers and sets. But in its current form Seeds is weaker then every other option on plant. I can easily drop it for concealment pool.

 

Also agree about creepers. It need slight buff to base damage (look at my test results on one of earlier pages)

Edited May 31 by ApolloInferno

[ryuplaneswalker]

On 5/26/2025 at 8:07 AM, The Curator said:

 Fly Trap

• AI mode changed from Pet_Base to Pet_Ranged.

Why is this being done when Fly Trap has a melee attack that it already likes to ignore the existence of?

[Parabola]

Idle thought. Having less coverage from seeds and being expected to layer controls might feel better if those controls didn't interfere with the confusion effect so much. Could there be a way of coding vines and spore burst so they don't apply their effects to confused enemies (or some confused enemies)?

[WindDemon21]

10 minutes ago, ryuplaneswalker said:

Why is this being done when Fly Trap has a melee attack that it already likes to ignore the existence of?

Especially when it's it's most damaging attacks with the best DPS for it too. The cone it does is nice though yeah, just if you're going to do this, give it the dominator version of impale too (or instead) at least.

[WindDemon21]

5 minutes ago, Parabola said:

Idle thought. Having less coverage from seeds and being expected to layer controls might feel better if those controls didn't interfere with the confusion effect so much. Could there be a way of coding vines and spore burst so they don't apply their effects to confused enemies (or some confused enemies)?

Not "not apply" but more "suppress effect while target is confused" similar to how the damage from liquid nitrogen doesn't apply if the target is slept as to not wake them up etc. Again though, just keep the target cap at 16 targets and all this pointless headache is avoided while the power can still be nerfed on it's recharge and duration.

[Riverdusk]

On 5/30/2025 at 9:47 AM, Championess said:

You'll be fine Seeds will still be the best control in the game with this setup just not absurdly so.

 

It isn't terrible, but in its current form, I'd swap seeds out for stalagmites in a heartbeat if I could.  Big AoE instead of a cone, longer range, 16 target cap.  Yes please.

 

Probably the biggest downside is just that the Stun enhancement sets aren't as good as the confuse ones, but that isn't the power's fault.  I mean, a tohit debuff proc on a stun set?  What were they thinking?  Then another one has a knockback proc, not only terrible, but often actually detrimental.  Stun has the worst procs ever. 

[WindDemon21]

3 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

 

It isn't terrible, but in its current form, I'd swap seeds out for stalagmites in a heartbeat if I could.  Big AoE instead of a cone, longer range, 16 target cap.  Yes please.

 

Probably the biggest downside is just that the Stun enhancement sets aren't as good as the confuse ones, but that isn't the power's fault.  I mean, a tohit debuff proc on a stun set?  What were they thinking?  Then another one has a knockback proc, not only terrible, but often actually detrimental.  Stun has the worst procs ever. 

I've said forever, stupefy proc needs changed to be a kb-kd/extra KD proc chance like OF is, especially for powers like hand clap and lightning clap, but even tornado, and other powers. I feel like i can guarantee not one person in the game has ever 6 slotted the stupefy set, or probably even used that knockback proc in the set. IT's stats are also SUPER weak, with hardly any recharge and low accuracy. Likewise the confuse set isn't great either. Only the purple sets for both are really worth it and that's just not right. (likewise the AA set proc shoudln't be that weak -to hit either is right. We also really need an extra chance to stun proc in one of the sets too so we can stack stuns like we can holds.) And on that note as well, really should be  able to slot purpple sets if they're attuned at level 1 or 10, so you can use that CC proc for powers like seeds if for some dumb reason they don't fix the 16 target cap back, cause it's  going to be pretty much needed.

[Vanden]

It would be pretty convenient if AoE controls could be forced to do their ToHit checks against already-mezzed targets last, so if it hits the target cap before it can affect everything in the AoE you don't get redundant controlling.