I am done with Brutes

[Erratic1]

9 minutes ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

Functionality for these Cones has been kneecapped as well. Previously, an 80degree cone like Shred would be 120degrees on a Tanker (while procing like 80 still); effectively the character's entire frontal arc. Now it will be 80degrees, same width as Brutes. It will be a whopping 3.5 longer... 10.5ft instead of 7ft.

 

 

Area grows as the square of the radius but linearly with angular increase (between 0 and 360 degrees). 7' at 120 degrees is 50% more area than 7' at 80 degrees. 10.5' at 80 degrees is 225% more area than 7' at 80 degrees.

 

Cones have the issue that their wide end is at the furthest point, but more than double the area is not a downside.

[twozerofoxtrot]

4 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Cones have the issue that their wide end is at the furthest point,

 

Correct, and because of how mobs group around a tank, this means that wide end is more likely than not to be empty. 

 

5 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

, but more than double the area is not a downside.

 

My post that you quoted literally explains why it is.

[Erratic1]

5 minutes ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

 

Correct, and because of how mobs group around a tank, this means that wide end is more likely than not to be empty. 

 

 

Only if you don't move. You can also use the cone on approach. One of my former Tankers made quite extensive use of Energy Torrent and would leap away to do so.

 

And the cone use consideration is completely off the table when talking PBAOEs.

Edited Thursday at 03:53 AM by Erratic1

[Snarky]

 

I have to leave this thread now.  Or it will become like another thread i hated.  So, i will read, react, but not post.  
 

I encourage everyone to read the actual Dev post.  No where did i see them say they are removing the previous Tank AoE buffs. They did state they are increasing two types of Tank AoE.  The Devs said that. Not Snarky.  More AoE is good, it is a benefit.  Sigh.  Out.  GL

[Captain Fabulous]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

 

I have to leave this thread now.  Or it will become like another thread i hated.  So, i will read, react, but not post.  
 

I encourage everyone to read the actual Dev post.  No where did i see them say they are removing the previous Tank AoE buffs. They did state they are increasing two types of Tank AoE.  The Devs said that. Not Snarky.  More AoE is good, it is a benefit.  Sigh.  Out.  GL

I did limited testing of this in closed beta, and I suggest you do some of your own testing in open beta. While I completely understand where you are coming from, IMHO all the changes are a bit of a wash -- there are some buffs and there are some nerfs. I did not notice any significant change in overall effectiveness between live and beta. 

[Jiro Ito]

it seems like the patch notes were written to market the changes as a buff, when they are really nerfs to aoe/cone base damage and proc damage over time.

[Wavicle]

They're nerfing tanks, not buffing them.

[Erratic1]

6 hours ago, Wavicle said:

They're nerfing tanks, not buffing them.

 

Are Tankers getting Energy Aura, which the patch notes claim was a bit too good, at values which are higher than any AT which had access to it previously?

 

Well, time for me to start the campaign for Bute Ninjitsu. Not sure why Brutes don't get it since apparently every AT deserves every power.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Are Tankers getting Energy Aura, which the patch notes claim was a bit too good, at values which are higher than any AT which had access to it previously?

 

Well, time for me to start the campaign for Bute Ninjitsu. Not sure why Brutes don't get it since apparently every AT deserves every power.

Pretty sure Brute, and Tanker, Ninjitsu is just a matter of time.

Edited Thursday at 12:01 PM by Wavicle

[Maelwys]

12 hours ago, Snarky said:

I encourage everyone to read the actual Dev post.  No where did i see them say they are removing the previous Tank AoE buffs. They did state they are increasing two types of Tank AoE.  The Devs said that. Not Snarky.  More AoE is good, it is a benefit.  Sigh.  Out.  GL

 

  

On 5/26/2025 at 12:53 PM, The Curator said:

---

 Tankers

• Self damage buff lowered from 1.0x to 0.875x.
• -Res modifiers lowered to match other melee ATs.
• Diminishing returns:
  • In powers that had their target cap increased from 10 to 16, each target above 10 will take 25% less damage than the previous target
  • In powers that had their target cap increased from 5 to 10, each target above 5 will take 44% less damage than the previous target
  • Gauntlet is immune to these diminishing returns
• Removed passive global Arc/Radius buff
• Increased the radius and range of all tanker Primary and Secondary Cones by 50%
  • Cones no longer have their arc boosted
• Increased the radius of all tanker Primary and Secondary Sphere AoEs by 50%
  • The increase wont push radius above 15ft

 

---

 

Nerfs in red. Buffs in green.

The underlined bit in red (the passive global arc/radius buff) is part of the Tanker revamp that they did back in Issue 26 Page 4.

They're revoking that bit; so now Tanker AoEs will no longer get any "global" radius/arc buff granted to them via Gauntlet... instead; Tanker AoEs will now have the same increased radius/arc baked into the attack power itself. At first glance this might seem like doing the same thing in different ways... but under the previous method (the global buff) it meant that damage scales and proc activation chances were substantially higher (because these are based on the attack's own inherent radius and arc, so they ignore global boosts). So overall this (the underlined red bit plus both green bits) is a nerf to both raw damage and damage proc activation chance for Tanker AoEs and Cones.

On top of that, Tanker AoEs and Cones gained the ability to hit more targets than usual as part of the aforementioned Issue 26 Page 4 revamp. Meaning that cones that have a target cap of 5 on other ATs can currently hit 10 targets on Tankers; and AoEs that have a target cap of 10 on other ATs can currently hit 16 targets on Tankers. The lines above noting that "each target above 10 will take 25% less damage than the previous target" and "each target above 5 will take 44% less damage than the previous target" are a direct nerf to the damage that Tankers on live currently deal to these additional targets. As an example: if I'm surrounded by foes and activate Eye of the Storm or Fire Sword Circle on a Tanker; I can typically hit 16 targets. But 6 of those targets will now be receiving much less damage than before. (On top of which, all the targets will be receiving less damage than before due to the global radius/arc buff removal mentioned above. So it's a double nerf. Triple if you were self-buffing your own damage via something like Build Up or Rage. Quadruple if you were inflicting any -res debuffs!)

Clearer?
 

Edited Thursday at 04:07 PM by Maelwys

[arcane]

Are you high again Snarky?

[Octogoat]

So should I be farming up a farming brute or will my rad armor tanker still do ok?

[Snarky]

11 minutes ago, arcane said:

Are you high again Snarky?

they edited their patch notes from something incomprehensible to "we removed previous aoe buffs"

 

which is appreciated.  

 

thankfully no one had a meltdown over it...

 

[Erratic1]

4 minutes ago, Octogoat said:

So should I be farming up a farming brute or will my rad armor tanker still do ok?

 

Tankers will remain your best farming option.

[Octogoat]

6 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Tankers will remain your best farming option.

Ok thanks all this back and forth is confusing me lol

[PeregrineFalcon]

55 minutes ago, Snarky said:

thankfully no one had a meltdown over it...

Let me see if I can explain why this is a nerf for Tanks in a way that you and I will both understand. And, as usual, if I'm wrong someone please correct me.

 

Self damage buff lowered from 1.0x to 0.875x

This a nerf to Build Up and Rage. - Nerf

-Res modifiers lowered to match other melee ATs

Less ability to reduce the resistance of enemies. - Nerf

Diminishing returns:

In powers that had their target cap increased from 10 to 16, each target above 10 will take 25% less damage than the previous target

Reduced damage output of AoEs. - Nerf

In powers that had their target cap increased from 5 to 10, each target above 5 will take 44% less damage than the previous target

Reduced damage output of AoEs. - Nerf

Gauntlet is immune to these diminishing returns

No change.

Removed passive global Arc/Radius buff

This one is complicated. The damage of AoEs varies by their area of effect. Smaller AoEs do more damage. The bonus meant that the damage was based on the base value, but the actual area hit was increased by the bonus from Gauntlet. Now that the AoEs are larger their damage will be reduced to match their actual area of effect. - Nerf

Increased the radius and range of all tanker Primary and Secondary Cones by 50%

Cones no longer have their arc boosted

See this looks like a buff, and it would be if it were on a Blaster, but on a Tank its a nerf. See the cones will be longer, sure, but they're also more narrow. Who cares if they're longer? A tank will have the enemies clustered as tightly around them as possible, so a long narrow cone is going to miss a lot more enemies. Think Cleave vs Breath of Fire. Which one is going to be better for a tank? - Nerf

Increased the radius of all tanker Primary and Secondary Sphere AoEs by 50%

The increase wont push radius above 15ft

Ok, so these two look like a buff, right? They're not. Remember, the bonus area of effect was removed. And then it was added back in by just increasing the base size of the AoE. Which, as I mentioned above, means that the damage will be reduced by the AoE size and then further reduced on some enemies by the new 'Diminishing Returns' addition. Oh, it will also reduce proc rate. So builds that rely heavily on procs for damage will have their damage output lowered as well. - Nerf

 

So did I miss anything everyone? Is there anything in these notes that looks like a secret buff that I missed?

Edited Thursday at 05:36 PM by PeregrineFalcon
Typo

[lemming]

48 minutes ago, Octogoat said:

So should I be farming up a farming brute or will my rad armor tanker still do ok?

Pretty sure your tank will be fine.   I have both tanks & brutes for farming and I find my brutes are slightly faster for active farming, and tanks are better for AFK, but it's a slight difference and my best version is running a couple brutes with one tank.   Not worth redoing anything for though.

 

I think most of the changes are fairly benign to the average player. Top end players who squeeze out every bit of performance probably will see changes.

[Erratic1]

9 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Self damage buff lowered from 1.0x to 0.875x

This a nerf to Build Up and Rage. - Nerf

 

Left out Follow Up.

 

Build Up has a recharge period of 90 seconds with 10 seconds duration. The game allows for maximum haste of 400%, so you could drop the recharge to 16 seconds--10 seconds up and 6 seconds down. Under a current damage buff of 80% that is 180% damage for 10 seconds and 100% for 6 seconds. That is 180%*10 + 100%*10 = 2400% damage over 16 seconds or an average of 150% damage. 

 

Nerfing the damage buff to 87.5%*80%=70% changes that average to 143.75%, which is 95.83% of the previous value. And this is assuming you reach and sustain 400% Haste. The lower your actual Haste the higher the percentage and hence lower the impact of the nerf (as goes Build Up).

 

Follow Up is a bit different since it can be stacked and maintain stacks. Even so, worst case would be three stacks of 30% for 90% reduced to three stacks of 26.25% for 78.75%. That means 1.7875/1.9 = 94.08% effectiveness. So anytime you would have hit a target for 400 damage previously you will now hit for 376.

 

Yes, it's a nerf. Not sure that single impact would ever be noticeable had it been snuck in.

[Neiska]

@Snarky - It should be obvious by now Snarky....

 

If you like to solo, do AE, go giant monster/AV hunting, or play durable-type characters like Tankers, Brutes, SoA's, MMs, then it's essentially "F you. Here is your crust of bread and stagnant pond water, and you better be grateful for that. You will see changes but we are going to make sure you don't like them."

 

But if you like to play blasters, corruptors, scrappers, or stalkers, its "oh, let us open the door for you. Here is your red carpet and complimentary Champaine. Will you be reserving the VIP room this evening? No, you will never be changed, for you were perfect already. Nerf damage? Preposterous! We will just lower everyone else's."

[Neiska]

2 hours ago, Maelwys said:

 

  

Nerfs in red. Buffs in green.

The underlined bit in red (the passive global arc/radius buff) is part of the Tanker revamp that they did back in Issue 26 Page 4.

They're revoking that bit; so now Tanker AoEs will no longer get any "global" radius/arc buff granted to them via Gauntlet... instead; Tanker AoEs will now have the same increased radius/arc baked into the attack power itself. At first glance this might seem like doing the same thing in different ways... but under the previous method (the global buff) it meant that damage scales and proc activation chances were substantially higher (because these are based on the attack's own inherent radius and arc, so they ignore global boosts). So overall this (the underlined red bit plus both green bits) is a nerf to both raw damage and damage proc activation chance for Tanker AoEs and Cones.

On top of that, Tanker AoEs and Cones gained the ability to hit more targets than usual as part of the aforementioned Issue 26 Page 4 revamp. Meaning that cones that have a target cap of 5 on other ATs can currently hit 10 targets on Tankers; and AoEs that have a target cap of 10 on other ATs can currently hit 16 targets on Tankers. The lines above noting that "each target above 10 will take 25% less damage than the previous target" and "each target above 5 will take 44% less damage than the previous target" are a direct nerf to the damage that Tankers on live currently deal to these additional targets. As an example: if I'm surrounded by foes and activate Eye of the Storm or Fire Sword Circle on a Tanker; I can typically hit 16 targets. But 6 of those targets will now be receiving much less damage than before. (On top of which, all the targets will be receiving less damage than before due to the global radius/arc buff removal mentioned above. So it's a double nerf. Triple if you were self-buffing your own damage via something like Build Up or Rage. Quadruple if you were inflicting any -res debuffs!)

Clearer?
 

 

Maelwys, I really respect you and your input on the forums. But I kind of disagree on this, simply because this doesn't take into account the different tanker primaries. Not all powers have the cone powers, or even AoEs. Some are fantastic AoE, like Spines. Others like EM have barely any AoE or cones at all. So please consider that this change will not change all tanker secondaries equally. But I hasten to add that may not be entirely a bad thing either, as it might help separate how some of the melee powersets perform differently on Tankers vs Brutes. 

[Seed22]

18 hours ago, macskull said:

Yes, absolutely. They already had the increased arc and radius from their inherent, but those are now getting baked into the powers themselves. This means their AoEs will deal less damage and the proc rates will be lower (on top of "extra" targets taking exponentially decreasing damage and weaker secondary effects).

Shhh

 

Its funny watching snarky try and spin this as a buff. I havent seen this level of ignorance in awhile. 

 

Keep it up snarky!

 

But to not be snarky myself, this makes it worse for procs and lowers tank overall damage.( for example, build up for a tank is noticeably less than live now). That is not a buff.

Edited Thursday at 06:52 PM by Seed22

[Psi-bolt]

14 hours ago, Snarky said:

 

I have to leave this thread now.  Or it will become like another thread i hated.  So, i will read, react, but not post.  
 

I encourage everyone to read the actual Dev post.  No where did i see them say they are removing the previous Tank AoE buffs. They did state they are increasing two types of Tank AoE.  The Devs said that. Not Snarky.  More AoE is good, it is a benefit.  Sigh.  Out.  GL

 

I'm confused, they seem to say this quite directly.  

• Self damage buff lowered from 1.0x to 0.875x.
• -Res modifiers lowered to match other melee ATs.
• Diminishing returns:
  • In powers that had their target cap increased from 10 to 16, each target above 10 will take 25% less damage than the previous target
  • In powers that had their target cap increased from 5 to 10, each target above 5 will take 44% less damage than the previous target
  • Gauntlet is immune to these diminishing returns
• Removed passive global Arc/Radius buff
• Increased the radius and range of all tanker Primary and Secondary Cones by 50%
  • Cones no longer have their arc boosted
• Increased the radius of all tanker Primary and Secondary Sphere AoEs by 50%
  • The increase wont push radius above 15ft

[MoonSheep]

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, Neiska said:

Maelwys, I really respect you and your input on the forums. But I kind of disagree on this, simply because this doesn't take into account the different tanker primaries. Not all powers have the cone powers, or even AoEs. Some are fantastic AoE, like Spines. Others like EM have barely any AoE or cones at all. So please consider that this change will not change all tanker secondaries equally. But I hasten to add that may not be entirely a bad thing either, as it might help separate how some of the melee powersets perform differently on Tankers vs Brutes. 

The bits I were covering above all related to Tanker AoEs and Cones.

I do fully accept that not all Tanker secondaries (not primaries!) have lots of AoE. Super Strength is a good example here - Foot Stomp doesn't currently benefit from any radius buffs as its base radius is 15ft... however it does benefit from Target cap increases and under the new rules any targets beyond 10 would be taking far less damage than before.

FWIW personally I do believe that nerfs to Tanker AoE damage were needed; as they currently outperform every other melee AT in terms of AoE PVE damage - which is a pretty big niche. And IMO most of these proposed measures, whilst they constitute a nerf, are not world-endingly harsh.
So I think @twozerofoxtrot probably put it best in the Focused Feedback thread:

  

On 5/28/2025 at 11:08 AM, twozerofoxtrot said:

I will give the HC Dev team credit here, though. They found a way to shave off some tanker damage performance without hurting their ability to tank or affecting procs writ large across all ATs.

 

However I think the "each target above X will take Y% less damage than the previous target" is a bit harsh - a flat rate (say 50% lower damage) would be far better than the currently proposed curves (e.g. 100%>56%>31%>18%>10%>6% for cones)

A few people have already started posting benchmark numbers - Shags is noting a 41% increase in mission cleartimes on their Dark Melee Tanker; and IIRC even Tanker DM doesn't have a stupendously large amount of native AoE damage.
 

 

Edited Thursday at 08:04 PM by Maelwys

[Snarky]

51 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

 

I'm confused, they seem to say this quite directly.  

• Self damage buff lowered from 1.0x to 0.875x.
• -Res modifiers lowered to match other melee ATs.
• Diminishing returns:
  • In powers that had their target cap increased from 10 to 16, each target above 10 will take 25% less damage than the previous target
  • In powers that had their target cap increased from 5 to 10, each target above 5 will take 44% less damage than the previous target
  • Gauntlet is immune to these diminishing returns
• Removed passive global Arc/Radius buff
• Increased the radius and range of all tanker Primary and Secondary Cones by 50%
  • Cones no longer have their arc boosted
• Increased the radius of all tanker Primary and Secondary Sphere AoEs by 50%
  • The increase wont push radius above 15ft

in the 15 hours that passed between my post and you quoting me, they removed an indecipherable thing that may have been a sentence and added "removed passive global arc/radius buff"

 

unless, of course, you knew that and were trying to be irritating.  in that case, well played sir.