The Idea Police

[Forager]

3 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Right, no one agreeing with, disagreeing with a suggestion, suggesting improvements to it, knows.

 

Yes! Exactly.

[lemming]

And some of us do have some dev knowledge, or have been told by devs what complications may lie in wait of a suggestion.  Sometimes it's just mentioning a past suggestion that had similar bones.

[Ghost]

Well you couldn’t get them to explicitly say what you wanted them to say, so you stared at it for 2 days…..sideways….squinted real hard…..and decided……THEY SAID WHAT I WANTED THEM TO SAY!!!!!!

 

😂😂😂😂

[Forager]

19 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Well you couldn’t get them to explicitly say what you wanted them to say, so you stared at it for 2 days…..sideways….squinted real hard…..and decided……THEY SAID WHAT I WANTED THEM TO SAY!!!!!!

 

😂😂😂😂

 

I think the talking point is allowed, but pointless. If you don't think the mod and dev response supports that opinion... ok?

 

I don't personally think it takes a lot of histrionics to get to that interpretation, but you're totally allowed to think that too.

[Widower]

2 hours ago, Forager said:

Just because something is pointless doesn't mean you have to quit.

For instance, posting in this thread!

[UltraAlt]

6 hours ago, Forager said:

People with no knowledge or insight into the development process. People who don't know what the devs can, can't, will or won't do. People who don't know how those decisions are made. People that don't know that they don't know these things.

 

I think you are overthinking things.

We don't have control over what the DEVs do. We can discuss things that they may or may not read and they make the decision.

 

And regardless of what you may think, the DEV time is limited, and they are the ones that decide how they want to spend their development time (Time that they give us for free because they love playing City of Heroes).

 

But some of us have some idea of the limitations of what the DEVS can and can't do based on that the DEVs have told us in the past.

You can go digging around - search for posts done by DEVs - and you can find that same information for yourself.

[TheMoneyMaker]

...

Edited 14 hours ago by TheMoneyMaker
double post

[TheMoneyMaker]

7 hours ago, Forager said:

 

People with no knowledge or insight into the development process. People who don't know what the devs can, can't, will or won't do. People who don't know how those decisions are made. People that don't know that they don't know these things.

 

20 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

I think you are overthinking things.

We don't have control over what the DEVs do. We can discuss things that they may or may not read and they make the decision.

 

And regardless of what you may think, the DEV time is limited, and they are the ones that decide how they want to spend their development time (Time that they give us for free because they love playing City of Heroes).

 

But some of us have some idea of the limitations of what the DEVS can and can't do based on that the DEVs have told us in the past.

You can go digging around - search for posts done by DEVs - and you can find that same information for yourself.

There's a difference in how it's presented by some people. Mentioning that something may be difficult or comparing it to something else that has been stated as unlikely or even not possible is fine as it helps manage expectations. But using that as a hammer to drive home a point of someone not wanting to see the devs "waste their time" on it because they don't like the suggestion isn't really productive discussion.

 

If you don't like something, say so, maybe explain why, but don't hide behind devs time or what you believe isn't possible as justification to shoot down an idea or try to stop discussion of the idea.

 

Edited 14 hours ago by TheMoneyMaker

[Snarky]

The dream police
They live inside of my head
The dream police
They come to me in my bed
The dream police
They're coming to arrest me, oh no

 

[UltraAlt]

25 minutes ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

But using that as a hammer to drive home a point of someone not wanting to see the devs "waste their time" on it because they don't like the suggestion isn't really productive discussion.

 

That is fine if you feel that way.

That is not going to stop me from my expressing my opinion that I would rather have the DEVs spending their time on other things (mainly the things the DEVs may want to themselves) than spending time on some project that would take a considerable amount of time that I won't find useful/enjoyable myself.

 

For some reason some players feel like there is an unlimited amount of DEV time to work on very tedious projects that may or may not be able to be done at all due to what the DEVs have called the "spaghetti" code of the game. Changing one thing may have some unknown impact on other parts of the game. Adding things doesn't seem to have the same kind of impact on the existing code (new power sets, new enhancement sets, power customization, and mission content for examples) 

 

Some ideas get no traction at all. I have posted plenty of suggestions that have next to no negative feedback that are never likely to happen. That is neither here nor there to me. I thought it was something that I would like to see added to the game. I posted it. I discussed it with other people.  The thread dies. Time to move along. 

 

 

[Ultimo]

To me, Dev time is a non-argument.  WE don't know how much time they have or how much time it would take to implement an idea, so it's pointless making an argument about it.  I'll make a suggestion, and if they have the time, maybe they'll do something with it.  If they don't, they won't.  The only thing I have any control over is the suggestion itself.

 

If someone likes an idea, great!  They should post about it.  It shows that it might be something worth looking at if more than one person likes it.  They could even build on the idea, adding other ideas that could make further use of the idea.  The Devs are human, they can't think of EVERYTHING.  Someone could easily post something that makes them say, "Hey, why didn't we think of that?"

 

If someone dislikes an idea, great!  They should post about it... but they should also explain WHY they don't like the idea.  That might let the person who HAD the idea (or indeed, anyone else posting in the thread) address the concern, and thereby remove the objection.  I call this DISCUSSION.

 

What I don't consider to be discussion are personal comments; attacks on a person's intelligence, experience or what have you.  Mockery and insults are not productive.  Unfortunately, many posters use such tactics to distract, and derail threads, so ideas don't get discussed.  THOSE kinds of posts should be moderated.

 

Of course, this is just my opinion.

[battlewraith]

Idea police, arrest this man

He talks in maths, and balance is his fix

He's like a human Hammi-O.

 

Idea police, arrest this girl

Her harping about dev time is making me feel ill

And we just wanted to party

 

This is what you get

This is what you get 

This is what you get

Calling Widower

 

Idea police, I've given all I can

It's not enough, I've given all I can

It's still full price for SOs

 

For a minute there

I lost the thread, I lost the thread

Phew, for a minute there

I lost the thread, I lost the thread

For a minute there

I lost the thread, I lost the thread

Phew for a minute there

They locked the thread, they locked the thread

 

[JasperStone]

7 hours ago, Snarky said:

The dream police
They live inside of my head
The dream police
They come to me in my bed
The dream police
They're coming to arrest me, oh no

 

 

 

[Shin Magmus]

   I'm impressed by GM Widower's restraint to not immediately lock the thread after that sick burn.  Leaving that comment as the final comment would've been absolutely iconic. 

[PeregrineFalcon]

19 hours ago, Forager said:

People with no knowledge or insight into the development process. People who don't know what the devs can, can't, will or won't do. People who don't know how those decisions are made. People that don't know that they don't know these things.

You do realize that all of the moderators, Homecoming devs, and former devs, have normal forum accounts, right?

 

And I don't mean their official dev accounts, I'm talking about their original, normal player, accounts. So at least some of the people who post stuff detailing what the devs can and cannot do literally are Homecoming devs, or former devs, on their normal accounts. You do understand that, right?

 

And since you don't know who they are it makes no sense for you to complain that players shouldn't be posting about stuff they don't know about when some of them actually do.  😁

Edited 1 hour ago by PeregrineFalcon
Forgot a word

[battlewraith]

10 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

And I don't mean their official dev accounts, I'm talking about their original, normal player, accounts. So at least some of the people who post stuff detailing what the devs can and cannot do literally are Homecoming devs, or former devs, on their normal accounts. You do understand that, right?

 

So...the devs have very little time or resources to implement changes, so they spend time logging on to personal accounts to remind people that they don't have time?

 

Is Rudra a dev? Is that the shocking reveal?

[El D]

8 hours ago, Ultimo said:

To me, Dev time is a non-argument.  WE don't know how much time they have or how much time it would take to implement an idea, so it's pointless making an argument about it.  I'll make a suggestion, and if they have the time, maybe they'll do something with it.  If they don't, they won't.  The only thing I have any control over is the suggestion itself.

 

Overall this is true, but we do have a pretty solid record of the devs' pace when it comes to implementation and progression. Along with the devs themselves regularly emphasizing 'we are a volunteer team with full-time jobs/lives/families outside of this effort.' Heck, to that point Cobalt Arachne has a ton of posts that include 'when I have time' as a pretty thorough refrain. None of which is meant as any kind of dig against Cobalt or the dev team overall nor as any sort of mark against all they've accomplished, mind! The monotony of editing AE maps alone would make me tear my hair out, much less the migraine inducing dread of getting sheathed/holstered weapons functional, formatting entirely new modes of gameplay, building new zones, writing new story arcs, or worst of all, having to moderate all the chuckleheads here on the forums (myself included). It's just that the devs themselves make the practical constraints clear that their time is limited rather often and if anyone's been around here for long enough they ought to have some understanding of the pace at which suggestions or changes can be implemented. Especially when considering the scale of said suggestions and changes. There is absolutely a point where beyond a certain threshold, a proposed suggestion becomes more unfeasible than not.

[Forager]

So the new objection is "Some people do know about these things!"

 

Cool..? Good for them?

Edited 1 hour ago by Forager

[Ultimo]

7 minutes ago, El D said:

 

Overall this is true, but we do have a pretty solid record of the devs' pace when it comes to implementation and progression. Along with the devs themselves regularly emphasizing 'we are a volunteer team with full-time jobs/lives/families outside of this effort.' Heck, to that point Cobalt Arachne has a ton of posts that include 'when I have time' as a pretty thorough refrain. None of which is meant as any kind of dig against Cobalt or the dev team overall nor as any sort of mark against all they've accomplished, mind! The monotony of editing AE maps alone would make me tear my hair out, much less the migraine inducing dread of getting sheathed/holstered weapons functional, formatting entirely new modes of gameplay, building new zones, writing new story arcs, or worst of all, having to moderate all the chuckleheads here on the forums (myself included). It's just that the devs themselves make the practical constraints clear that their time is limited rather often and if anyone's been around here for long enough they ought to have some understanding of the pace at which suggestions or changes can be implemented. Especially when considering the scale of said suggestions and changes. There is absolutely a point where beyond a certain threshold, a proposed suggestion becomes more unfeasible than not.

My point is, we can only guess at their time and resources, and at how much time any given suggestion might take, so there's not much point in concerning ourselves with that.  Make a suggestion.  It's up to the Devs to decide if it's worth using what time they have to make it happen.

 

For example, I might suggest making the Pistols animations from the Mastermind Thugs set available to Dual Pistols for Blasters and the like, as alternate animations (for those who dislike the silly, flippy regular animations).  It LOOKS like it should be easy to do... but I really don't KNOW.  Maybe it is.  Maybe it isn't.  Maybe they could do it in an hour.  Maybe it would take a week.  Or a month.  I don't KNOW.  Only the Devs know, and only they can decide if the time needed is worth spending.

[Indystruck]

27 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Is Rudra a dev?

 

I'd like to retract my statement at the top of page 8 and reapply it here.

[battlewraith]

2 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

 

I'd like to retract my statement at the top of page 8 and reapply it here.

 

The patrol xp rage was a psyop to throw us off the trail.

[Forager]

Would anyone care to take a stab at my actual point? I'm saying it's pointless to discuss something that you have no knowledge of, and the arguments have been "but we're allowed!" and now "but some people do know about it!"

 

I'll even help. A good example of players contributing in this area is in the eye blast thread, with players looking for animations that already exist in game. That's players with a grasp of the limitations using their knowledge and experience to improve on an idea.

 

Has it occurred to anyone of the hit dogs hollering that maybe I'm not talking about intelligent, informed posts? Maybe I'm just talking about intellectually dishonest people with no knowledge and experience retreating to this argument when they don't have anything to add and can't refute any points, but shooting down ideas is their hobby.

 

I thought it was like 3 or 4 dudes. I was posting about 3 or 4 dudes. I was going to cite the flipside of "a hit dog or holler" which is "if it don't apply, let it fly" but after pages and pages of... this... I don't know what to think. Maybe the current culture of this forum is one that the development team is happy with?

 

It's weird to me, but it appears I'm the minority on that. 

[tidge]

7 minutes ago, Forager said:

 I was going to cite the flipside of "a hit dog or holler" which is

 

...some dogs will yap at anything, all the time, for no reason, just to hear themselves.

[Ghost]

[Bionic_Flea]

Mmmmm . . . dogs.

 

This is a lot of pages that essentially boils down to:

 

-  I don't want people to say the "devs don't have time" or "no" for any proposed change.  

- But we're allowed to

- GMs and Devs agree that they're allowed to

- Yes, you're allowed to, but you shouldn't because I think it's stupid.

- ???

 

PS - Damn you for making me hum Cheap Trick every time I see this thread.

Edited 16 minutes ago by Bionic_Flea