Absolute Amazement - the more you have, the less powerful the

[JayboH]

...proc.  Adding more pieces of the Absolute Amazement set to a character in the same power extends the duration of stun, making the -tohit debuff less and less useful, as it only lasts 10 seconds.  

  

Seems kind of broken doesn't it?  How about a chance to immobilize instead, to help prevent them from all walking around during a stun?

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, JayboH said:

...proc.  Adding more pieces of the Absolute Amazement set to a character in the same power extends the duration of stun, making the -tohit debuff less and less useful, as it only lasts 10 seconds.  

  

Seems kind of broken doesn't it?  How about a chance to immobilize instead, to help prevent them from all walking around during a stun?

and i like it the way it is.  i use the set (with proc) in a targeted ranged AoE  mag 2 stun.  my attack chain is "Fear Cone (fear, to hit debuff). Dark Pit (Targeted AoE stun), walk into the group (I have a mag 2 stun aura, so 2+2 =4), drop Tar Patch, Spirit Drain (+dam buff, targeted aoe), Nuke (Blackstar).  

 

A lot of my attacks do to hit debuff.  I do not softcap Defenses.  If anyone is resistant to stun (did you know that some critters are?!?) the to hit debuff stacks with the Fear cone (fear is good, the to hit debuff it splashes is glorious) and improves my ability to pull off this madness.  

Edited yesterday at 10:17 AM by Snarky

[Excraft]

2 hours ago, JayboH said:

How about a chance to immobilize instead, to help prevent them from all walking around during a stun?

 

Don't know that I'd say the set is broken, but this part would be a welcome change.

[tidge]

5 hours ago, JayboH said:

...proc.  Adding more pieces of the Absolute Amazement set to a character in the same power extends the duration of stun, making the -tohit debuff less and less useful, as it only lasts 10 seconds.  

  

Seems kind of broken doesn't it?  How about a chance to immobilize instead, to help prevent them from all walking around during a stun?

 

TBH, this is how a lot of the enemy-affecting %debuffs feel to me... and extends to the "10 second" mezz effects as well.

 

And if I'm being honest: FF %+Recharge usually only gets into builds with Domination (to mitigate slows on perma-dom) or on armor-set click powers that are needed for survival.

 

 

 

[JayboH]

5 hours ago, Snarky said:

and i like it the way it is.  i use the set (with proc) in a targeted ranged AoE  mag 2 stun.  my attack chain is "Fear Cone (fear, to hit debuff). Dark Pit (Targeted AoE stun), walk into the group (I have a mag 2 stun aura, so 2+2 =4), drop Tar Patch, Spirit Drain (+dam buff, targeted aoe), Nuke (Blackstar).  

 

A lot of my attacks do to hit debuff.  I do not softcap Defenses.  If anyone is resistant to stun (did you know that some critters are?!?) the to hit debuff stacks with the Fear cone (fear is good, the to hit debuff it splashes is glorious) and improves my ability to pull off this madness.  

Which critters do you want the proc to debuff tohit that can resist mag 4 stuns

[Snarky]

13 minutes ago, JayboH said:

Which critters do you want the proc to debuff tohit that can resist mag 4 stuns

The to hit debuff stacks with all my Dark Dark Corr to hit  debuffs.  

[JayboH]

40 minutes ago, Snarky said:

The to hit debuff stacks with all my Dark Dark Corr to hit  debuffs.  

Yes, and which critters do you want the proc to debuff tohit that can resist mag 4 stuns

[FupDup]

This is sort of similar to how Sudden Acceleration's proc that converts KB to KD will completely nullify any KB slotting from the rest of the set in the same power, but less extreme since some enemies will at least resist the stun magnitude (but then again they can also resist the debuff at that point too).

[Snarky]

28 minutes ago, JayboH said:

Yes, and which critters do you want the proc to debuff tohit that can resist mag 4 stuns

You are misunderstanding what I am saying.  And it looks like it is intentional.  
 

I LIKE the to hit debuff proc.  I know that you do not.  
 

Again, here is what my normal attack chain is.  I use a Fear cone at range.  This has fear, and a to hit debuff cone. Then I toss Dark Pit, which is a targeted AoE stun.  In Dark Pit I have 5 Absolute Amazement, including the proc. And an Accuracy. The to hit debuff proc will stack with the Fear Cone’s to hit debuff.  This makes me safer VERSUS TRASH MOBS.  If there is an EB or AV I will now use a targeted AoE debuff to hit/damage toggle on them.  If not i slide into melee and finish my nuke attack chain; Tar Patch, Spirit Drain, Blackstar.  Then joust out drop another fear cone, and usually start a cone attack chain.  But maybe a ST attack chain. 
 

I posted that not for you.  Almost certain you do not care.  But to be clear that is why I like the to hit debuff PROC in Absolute Amazement. 
 

I have run Dark Armor Melee on Brutes, Tanks, and a Stalker.  The low mag fear and stun auras are not for EBs and AVs.  They are to deal with a wall of trash mobs.  The to hit debuffs help against those as well.  (I almost always run Dark/Dark Melee). 
 

Asking me again and again how stuns and to hit debuffs work against high level mobs will not get you much beyond this encyclopedia entry.  I do not care if you understand it.  Likewise I do not think an immob PROC will be very good against an AV or EB so not sure why you are hammering that question.  
 

The strategy with Dark is subtle, and most do not fathom it.   It is okay. I hooe you find something you do like and understand.  
 

Also, none of these suggestions get implemented.  So this is really a ton of navel gazing.  But I was bored. 

Edited yesterday at 05:26 PM by Snarky

[srmalloy]

7 hours ago, Snarky said:

A lot of my attacks do to hit debuff.  I do not softcap Defenses.  If anyone is resistant to stun (did you know that some critters are?!?) the to hit debuff stacks with the Fear cone (fear is good, the to hit debuff it splashes is glorious) and improves my ability to pull off this madness. 

I think what the OP would like is some sort of cascading effect -- the set does stun, with an associated -ToHit effect, but if you extend the stun duration, the -ToHit can run out before the stun wears off, rendering it pointless. If the -ToHit were applied with a delay, taking effect when the stun ran out, then it would be beneficial to slot more of the set, as you'd be stunning them for longer, and leaving them unable to aim for a while afterward -- but if they were resistant to the stun, the -ToHit would take effect right away, giving you the benefit you're getting now.

[Rudra]

58 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

I think what the OP would like is some sort of cascading effect -- the set does stun, with an associated -ToHit effect, but if you extend the stun duration, the -ToHit can run out before the stun wears off, rendering it pointless. If the -ToHit were applied with a delay, taking effect when the stun ran out, then it would be beneficial to slot more of the set, as you'd be stunning them for longer, and leaving them unable to aim for a while afterward -- but if they were resistant to the stun, the -ToHit would take effect right away, giving you the benefit you're getting now.

Except that is not what the OP is saying. It says:

 

9 hours ago, JayboH said:

How about a chance to immobilize instead,

 

 

So the -ToHit would go away. (And the immob' being requested most likely wouldn't last any longer than the current -ToHit. So with a full set extending the duration of the Stun, the immob' would also wear off before the Stun.)

 

Edited yesterday at 06:39 PM by Rudra
Edited to add missed closing parenthesis.

[Seed22]

3 hours ago, Snarky said:

The strategy with Dark is subtle, and most do not fathom it.   It is okay. I hooe you find something you do like and understand.  

 

Its not subtle and tbh Im certain Jay plays dark better than you being frank. 

 

I get you like the proc, but this dunning kruger show out isnt necessary snarky. The proc with dark isnt useless but unless you play very terribly, wont be noticed amongst the tohit overkill on all ATs with dark miasma. It getting changed to something significantly more useful would be nice.

 

TLDR: The proc sucks and due to not understanding dark you think it's helping in a noticeable way.

Edited yesterday at 09:05 PM by Seed22

[Indystruck]

me, on my dark/dark defender i've played for decades, having everything feared and stunned: I am glad I have this additional chance to do -7.5 tohit in a slow recharging stun power, which is less than unenhanced gloom on defender scales. The stun in it at base lasts for 12~ seconds, meaning I am really getting use out of the 10s unenhanceable duration of the tohit debuff.

 

I'm just kidding ain't no way I'd take dark pit lol

[Seed22]

3 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

me, on my dark/dark defender i've played for decades, having everything feared and stunned: I am glad I have this additional chance to do -7.5 tohit in a slow recharging stun power, which is less than unenhanced gloom on defender scales. The stun in it at base lasts for 12~ seconds, meaning I am really getting use out of the 10s unenhanceable duration of the tohit debuff.

 

I'm just kidding ain't no way I'd take dark pit lol

No good dark blast build does but that'll get me a demerit whoopsie.

[ScarySai]

Eh, I guess? But then again, forts hypnosis is in a similar boat.

 

AA could be fixed to proc when the stun wears off. Forts hypnosis could be changed to a root or something, actually beneficial to a set like mind.

Edited yesterday at 09:47 PM by ScarySai

[macskull]

I understand OP's issue with the proc but to me it's more that the proc itself isn't useful. A small, unenhanceable, affected-by-level-differences tohit debuff isn't that useful of a slot pick in any circumstance and especially not in this one.

[Snarky]

50 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

 

Its not subtle and tbh Im certain Jay plays dark better than you being frank. 

 

I get you like the proc, but this dunning kruger show out isnt necessary snarky. The proc with dark isnt useless but unless you play very terribly, wont be noticed amongst the tohit overkill on all ATs with dark miasma. It getting changed to something significantly more useful would be nice.

 

TLDR: The proc sucks and due to not understanding dark you think it's helping in a noticeable way.

as you pointed out, you are sure i play dark poorly.

 

therefore i still need it, since i play it very terribly.  as per your logic, that is who needs it.

 

i need it, i want it, i use it.  

 

oh, and i have it.

[Ukase]

5 hours ago, Seed22 said:

this dunning kruger show

For those that do know that they do not know what the Dunning-Kruger effect is, (and would like to know without looking it up) it's essentially someone having with limited competence in an area without being aware that they're lacking competence in the area. 

When HC first opened up, my first character was a fire/rad Sentinel. It could be argued I was suffering from the Dunning-Kruger effect because I had no idea at the time Sentinels were doing sub-par DPS. (I was having fun with it, and just really never noticed. Probably because I was teaming a lot back then and things were getting dropped pretty quickly - just not by me, I guess. I dunno.) 

And really, the only reason I know about this at all is because of John Cleese. 

 

[Gerswin Jr]

18 hours ago, JayboH said:

...proc.  Adding more pieces of the Absolute Amazement set to a character in the same power extends the duration of stun, making the -tohit debuff less and less useful, as it only lasts 10 seconds.  

  

Seems kind of broken doesn't it?  How about a chance to immobilize instead, to help prevent them from all walking around during a stun?

I agree the proc kinda sucks. I strongly disagree that an immobilize would make it better. I honestly like that it does -tohit, but the value and duration are low by about a factor of 4 in terms of comparable value to purple damage procs. 

[JayboH]

9 hours ago, Rudra said:

Except that is not what the OP is saying. It says:

 

 

 

So the -ToHit would go away. (And the immob' being requested most likely wouldn't last any longer than the current -ToHit. So with a full set extending the duration of the Stun, the immob' would also wear off before the Stun.)

 

It would be effective immediately just like the -tohit debuff is effective immediately - however it would actually have a real effect on the mobs, because stunned mobs can't use tohit checks.  Stunned mobs getting immobilized won't wander around dispersing however.

 

Like I said, the more pieces of the set you get, the less useful the proc becomes, so the set is actually fighting against itself in the same power, which is kinda bonkers.  I guess it's like how putting damage procs in sleep powers used to be before the Deep Sleep mechanics were added in the very last patch, only this is worse, because at least the damage would have a real effect.  

 

That mob that Snarky stunned that can't use any tohit checks now has their tohit debuffed - and once mag levels were introduced into the conversation, I asked which mobs the proc was for that were resisting his mag 4 disorients so I could understand his goals - wouldn't a good chunk of bosses get stunned at mag 4?  Once he answered it contained information that didn't seem to be a reply to my question, so I confirmed his statements and asked again politely.

Edited 19 hours ago by JayboH

[JayboH]

6 hours ago, Seed22 said:

No good dark blast build does but that'll get me a demerit whoopsie.

Yeah I said that too in another thread I think recently.  I've tried to get Dark Pit some dev love over the years because it's kinda terrible at everything.  Slotting it with anything doesn't really make it not terrible in some way, be it accuracy, stun duration, endurance cost, or recharge.

Edited 19 hours ago by JayboH

[JayboH]

6 hours ago, ScarySai said:

Eh, I guess? But then again, forts hypnosis is in a similar boat.

 

AA could be fixed to proc when the stun wears off. Forts hypnosis could be changed to a root or something, actually beneficial to a set like mind.

Yeah, totally agree.  Not sure this is possible since there is a wide world of things it would have to account for including lag, getting hit with speed boost part way, etc.

[Rudra]

22 minutes ago, JayboH said:

It would be effective immediately just like the -tohit debuff is effective immediately - however it would actually have a real effect on the mobs, because stunned mobs can't use tohit checks.  Stunned mobs getting immobilized won't wander around dispersing however.

 

Like I said, the more pieces of the set you get, the less useful the proc becomes, so the set is actually fighting against itself in the same power, which is kinda bonkers.  I guess it's like how putting damage procs in sleep powers used to be before the Deep Sleep mechanics were added in the very last patch, only this is worse, because at least the damage would have a real effect.  

 

That mob that Snarky stunned that can't use any tohit checks now has their tohit debuffed - and once mag levels were introduced into the conversation, I asked which mobs the proc was for that were resisting his mag 4 disorients so I could understand his goals - wouldn't a good chunk of bosses get stunned at mag 4?  Once he answered it contained information that didn't seem to be a reply to my question, so I confirmed his statements and asked again politely.

I fail to see why you are telling me this. I am keeping my own opinion on the matter to myself, doing my best to stay out of the conversation. My sole purpose in that post was to point out to @srmalloy that what (s)he/they is saying about the OP is not what the OP is saying.

 

(Edit: Though my addition of the duration can make it seem otherwise, I guess. Okay, if that is what prompted this response, my apologies for giving the wrong impression.)

 

Edited 18 hours ago by Rudra

[JayboH]

14 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I fail to see why you are telling me this. I am keeping my own opinion on the matter to myself, doing my best to stay out of the conversation. My sole purpose in that post was to point out to @srmalloy that what (s)he/they is saying about the OP is not what the OP is saying.

 

(Edit: Though my addition of the duration can make it seem otherwise, I guess. Okay, if that is what prompted this response, my apologies for giving the wrong impression.)

 

It's because of your last line:

 

"So the -ToHit would go away. (And the immob' being requested most likely wouldn't last any longer than the current -ToHit. So with a full set extending the duration of the Stun, the immob' would also wear off before the Stun.)"  

  

so I replied to you with

 

"It would be effective immediately just like the -tohit debuff is effective immediately - however it would actually have a real effect on the mobs, because stunned mobs can't use tohit checks.  Stunned mobs getting immobilized won't wander around dispersing however."

[Rudra]

9 minutes ago, JayboH said:

It's because of your last line:

 

"So the -ToHit would go away. (And the immob' being requested most likely wouldn't last any longer than the current -ToHit. So with a full set extending the duration of the Stun, the immob' would also wear off before the Stun.)"  

  

so I replied to you with

 

"It would be effective immediately just like the -tohit debuff is effective immediately - however it would actually have a real effect on the mobs, because stunned mobs can't use tohit checks.  Stunned mobs getting immobilized won't wander around dispersing however."

Hence my edit you quoted when I realized that was probably it.