Kheldians need some love and not reliant on Changeling to be competitive

[Zormico]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

I would only consider it an exploit if the npcs I was fighting used it against me! 

Intellectually, I can see the issue, why it shouldn't be allowed/possible. But, from where I sit, If players 1-8 (khelds) can clobber something super fast - big deal. They killed something in 8 seconds that might have taken my team of "standard" players 14 seconds. Sure, that adds up. But no matter which way the butter is sliced, it's still going to take my standard team 14 seconds. 

I will cede the point that if someone doesn't want to do the quick change stuff (and I wouldn't blame them) and they do want to play a kheld, they may see themselves in a rough place. Can't do anything great, but can do a number of things competently. On the surface, I have no issue with the OP's suggestion. But the word exploit means to use, to take advantage. To me, it's clever. More power to them. It doesn't impact my game at all. 

The only players it might impact are the khelds that don't use the macros for whatever reason. Those players may feel, as the OP does, that the AT could use some love. And maybe that's true. Or maybe that love came in the form of these macros. I've no idea. So, while I feel bad for the other players that aren't enjoying the khelds as is, I'm in the same boat. I just play something else that's more fun for me. 

 

Some players probably don’t use the changeling setup simply because it’s not an obvious or clearly intended way to play. While the information is easy to find if you check the forums, it’s not exactly something the game itself guides you toward. And even for those who do know about it, most are likely turned off by the sheer input intensity and the constant 2 explosions per sec — it’s a lot to keep up with.

 

Personally, I don’t use it much anymore either; the sound spam alone gets pretty deafening unless I mute the game. I’ll switch into changeling mode for AVs or GMs when I need the extra punch since it roughly triples my damage, but I’ve got a pretty unique keyboard setup that lets me swap between “normal” play and changeling. That involves 23 macros/binds and a completely different control layout than any other AT I’ve played.

 

It’s also the only build I’ve ever seen people exclude when putting out LFM calls for teams, which really says a lot about how annoying the setup is for others.

[Ukase]

1 hour ago, Zormico said:

And even for those who do know about it, most are likely turned off by the sheer input intensity and the constant 2 explosions per sec — it’s a lot to keep up with.

I couldn't agree with you more. It's a pain in the butt - but the whole shape shifting the normal way is also a pain in the butt. 

[Chris24601]

10 hours ago, MTeague said:

Honestly, I would be happy as a clam if a version of Luminous/Umbral blasts, and Luminous/Umbral aura (minus all shapeshifting) were made available to Sentinels. That's really what I want out of a Humanform Peacebringer anyway. A Sentinel, with a pair of powersets that I think look awesome. I was never all that taken with the shapeshifting anyway.

My favorite thing about this game is the costumes; and in addition to needing maddening exploits to not be far behind the curve, you don’t even get to enjoy your cool costume at all because you’re always in Nova/Dwarf/Lightform.

 

Making a Sentinel powerset might manage some of the aesthetics (though I think Scrapper in the vein of claws with its strong fast cycling 40’ ranged and cone attacks would be a better way to have that particular “blapper” feel that human-only PBs have… and people might not know human-form PB ranged attacks were originally limited to 40’ so Scrapper ranged attacks wouldn’t be unprecedented for a Kheld), but unless it also allows for the Kheldian arcs it would feel a bit hollow to me.

 

While it would require doing the thing the devs hate most, my ideal fix for Khelds would be to add two mutually exclusive powers… one for Nova and one for Dwarf.

 

The Nova alternate power would lock you out of Nova form, but give a passive buff to your damage to put it at roughly Soldier of Arachnos tier damage.

 

The Dwarf alternate power would be a toggle for mez protection, also at SoA tier (the 80’ range of Kheld ranged attacks is why I’m going with SoA numbers instead of Sentinels).

 

This would also give a buff for a bi-form, buffing the aspect of their human form in the way the missing form would otherwise provide.

 

And if you want to play human-only or bi-form just like you do now, you just skip both powers… meaning no one is forcing you to change your current playstyle with this option added.

 

I would also fix its class mechanic by making it be like the Defender’s… i.e. give it a solo buff that scales down as you add teammates (which give the usual Kheld buffs). I’d think maybe akin to say 1.5 each of the damage and resistance team buffs that falls off by .5 per teammate (1x at one teammate, .5 at two, 0 at 3+ members).

 

But that’s just my idea.

Edited 19 hours ago by Chris24601

[macskull]

5 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

The Standard Damage Formula also includes animation time.

This game's PvE damage formula does not take animation time into account. This game's PvE damage formula has never taken animation time into account.  If you're gonna come at someone it makes it much harder to take you seriously when you're incorrect about things at such a basic level.

 

EDIT: Because I'm sure someone is going to tell me I'm wrong, here is the PvE damage formula:

(0.2*(0.8*Recharge+1.8)) / (Standard Area Factor)

where "Standard Area Factor" is:

Spheres: (1+(Radius*0.15))

Cones: ((1+(Radius*0.15))-(((Radius/6)*0.011)/5)*(360-Arc)) 

 

The only place animation time matters in the damage formula is for determining PvP damage, because that formula is entirely different, and we're not talking about that one.

 

EDIT 2: To address some of the other stuff in your post:

 

Quote

It's breaking the game for an advantage.

If the only advantage it provides is to allow you to be on the level of a mediocre Scrapper, maybe that's not actually all that much of an advantage.

 

Quote

But "We don't wanna mess with that mess of spaghetti 'til we have a plan on how to untangle it" is not "Changeling is the right way to play Kheldians."

I never said changeling was the right way to play Kheldians. I never said the devs said changeling was the right way to play Kheldians. I did say leaving it in was an explicit admission on their part that the ATs are in a bad place without it.

Edited 18 hours ago by macskull

[Steampunkette]

The reason I say that animation time is a part of the standard damage formula is, simply, Arcanatime and the game's core structure around TTK. There's a reason the game lists damage per cast cycle in the power window, after all. It's the rate at which you interact with the world around you, no matter how hard you slap Recharge into your build. A final arbiter of output. Hell, it's why so many top-tier builds wind up favoring short-animation-time powers because the DPS vs DPA doesn't line up well for testing metrics. It's -why- the changeling is so alluring, since you're able to outright -ignore- the activation times to increase DPS.

 

Blows my mind how some folks will bend over backwards to try and excuse blatant exploits as perfectly normal and acceptable gameplay mechanics.

[tidge]

10 hours ago, macskull said:

I never said changeling was the right way to play Kheldians. I never said the devs said changeling was the right way to play Kheldians. I did say leaving it in was an explicit admission on their part that the ATs are in a bad place without it.

 

I'm here... although I get the feels that current team would bend over backwards to avoid being "explicit". 

 

I find it mentally/visually exhausting to play on a team where someone is 100% exploiting "changeling", but I feel similarly with several other powersets too. Given what the power curve looks like for the rest of the game/ATs, I can't otherwise get worked up about the increase in performance of "exploiters" when the AT(s) are otherwise solidly mediocre(*)... especially in this era of easy set bonuses.

 

For myself, I feel like I "know" what the problem with Kheldians is... and my feels don't align with "things people don't like about them". The core problem as I see it is that the alternate forms powers are basically "stuck" at the base levels they can be taken (6, 20) so they don't really scale like (later choice) powers for other ATs... and the choice of human form powers is pretty limited compared to all the variety possible from other ATs.... in other words, a high-level Nova form is basically blasting with low-tier attacks, and a high-level Dwarf (while able to survive a LOT) is stuck with its Dwarf powers.... unless risking changing forms (or exploiting the changeling).

 

I see ^this^ as being distinct from the long list of player dislikes: KB in the blasts, lack of mezz protection outside of Dwarf, lack of costume in alternate form, etc.

 

(*) mediocre at high level. From levels 6-16; In solo play find the Nova form to be somewhat OP, and the Dwarf is shockingly good up until about level 29. If I never had to face an EB/AV with a solo Kheldian, I probably wouldn't care... but I find them very problematic when trying to solo something like a Penny Yin TF. YMMV.

[golstat2003]

16 hours ago, Ukase said:

I would only consider it an exploit if the npcs I was fighting used it against me! 

Intellectually, I can see the issue, why it shouldn't be allowed/possible. But, from where I sit, If players 1-8 (khelds) can clobber something super fast - big deal. They killed something in 8 seconds that might have taken my team of "standard" players 14 seconds. Sure, that adds up. But no matter which way the butter is sliced, it's still going to take my standard team 14 seconds. 

I will cede the point that if someone doesn't want to do the quick change stuff (and I wouldn't blame them) and they do want to play a kheld, they may see themselves in a rough place. Can't do anything great, but can do a number of things competently. On the surface, I have no issue with the OP's suggestion. But the word exploit means to use, to take advantage. To me, it's clever. More power to them. It doesn't impact my game at all. 

The only players it might impact are the khelds that don't use the macros for whatever reason. Those players may feel, as the OP does, that the AT could use some love. And maybe that's true. Or maybe that love came in the form of these macros. I've no idea. So, while I feel bad for the other players that aren't enjoying the khelds as is, I'm in the same boat. I just play something else that's more fun for me. 

 

The devs called it an exploit . . . which they are leaving in for now until they can revamp Khelds. I don't think there is any question whether it is or isn't at this point.

 

How well the revamp will go, that's certainly debatable though.

[golstat2003]

51 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

 

(*) mediocre at high level. From levels 6-16; In solo play find the Nova form to be somewhat OP, and the Dwarf is shockingly good up until about level 29. If I never had to face an EB/AV with a solo Kheldian, I probably wouldn't care... but I find them very problematic when trying to solo something like a Penny Yin TF. YMMV.

 

Has HC ever declared that a solo player SHOULD be able to solo an EB/AV? EBs I can see maybe. Be AVs?

 

I'm not sure that is the right balance point for ANY AT.

 

EDIT: To be clear I am fine with any powerset or AT that CAN. But I would warn if that is what anyone is expecting out of the Kheld revamp, that they may be setting themselves up for a HUGE disappointment.

Edited 6 hours ago by golstat2003
Clarification.

[Ukase]

13 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

The devs called it an exploit

Never saw that. Not saying they didn't, but I suppose there's a lot the devs say that I don't see. 

[tidge]

3 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

 

Has HC ever declared that a solo player SHOULD be able to solo an EB/AV? EBs I can see maybe. Be AVs?

 

I'm not sure that is the right balance point for ANY AT.

 

EDIT: To be clear I am fine with any powerset or AT that CAN. But I would warn if that is what anyone is expecting out of the Kheld revamp, that they may be setting themselves up for a HUGE disappointment.

 

In terms of the "changeling exploit" (or Brute/Tanker "nerfs") soloing AVs is (based on my reading of the forums) a big part of what players consider to be 'over-performing'. I didn't make the world, I just live in it.

 

Specific to Kheldians... there are a couple of points in the Kheldian arcs when a solo player will end up facing an EB that does its own 'form shift' and becomes a REAL PITA to deal with... these aren't even TFs, so it isn't like a solo player just doing their thing won't end up being over-matched.

 

As for a potential revamp... I think such a thing is both technically hard (because changing forms is the reason for the HEAT) and the exploit (such as it is) isn't game-altering. The way I see this: someone on the HC team would have to REALLY want to change it, have a strong particular vision of HOW to change HEATs, and muscle the change through. I'm not saying it won't happen... but this seems to involve a LOT for a marginal set of ATs.

 

[golstat2003]

9 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

In terms of the "changeling exploit" (or Brute/Tanker "nerfs") soloing AVs is (based on my reading of the forums) a big part of what players consider to be 'over-performing'. I didn't make the world, I just live in it.

 

Specific to Kheldians... there are a couple of points in the Kheldian arcs when a solo player will end up facing an EB that does its own 'form shift' and becomes a REAL PITA to deal with... these aren't even TFs, so it isn't like a solo player just doing their thing won't end up being over-matched.

 

As for a potential revamp... I think such a thing is both technically hard (because changing forms is the reason for the HEAT) and the exploit (such as it is) isn't game-altering. The way I see this: someone on the HC team would have to REALLY want to change it, have a strong particular vision of HOW to change HEATs, and muscle the change through. I'm not saying it won't happen... but this seems to involve a LOT for a marginal set of ATs.

 

 

Agreed. And probably why it's been worked on their internal side quietly and it won't see the light of day to any test or pre-test server anytime soon.

 

EDIT: I've said before that tweaks would be good enough to improve the AT. Others disagree. The one thing everyone can agree on is whatever comes out into beta eventually will probably cause lots of discussion. LOL

Edited 6 hours ago by golstat2003

[tidge]

If I was in a position to direct actions...  and this was a 'hot topic'.... I'd suggest that the development team work on a NEW shape-shifting AT, sort of "starting from the ground up" to see what sort of balance issues need to be considered, how to address the 'form changing' etc... and then perhaps apply any lessons learned to the Kheldians.

 

My own sentiment is that the Kheldians (as an AT, as a story source) were something of a development dead-end... even though I enjoyed them on Live and have a handful on Homecoming. In contrast: I find the VEATs to offer much more variety (including costume options!) for me to build and play... even though they've also got their own arc. I know that the forced VEAT respec can be something of a PITA, but the flexibility that comes with it really outweighs the HEAT path(s) IMO. 

 

If there was a choice between a new AT that followed either the HEAT or VEAT model, with no guess as to what it might be... I'd pick the VEAT model.

[macskull]

5 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

The reason I say that animation time is a part of the standard damage formula is, simply, Arcanatime and the game's core structure around TTK.

Neither of those things are part of damage formulas. You’d have more of a point if changeling somehow also bypassed power recharge but it doesn’t, and most of the Kheldian form powers have animations that are fast enough to have a relatively small impact on cycle time compared to their recharge.

 

5 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

Blows my mind how some folks will bend over backwards to try and excuse blatant exploits as perfectly normal and acceptable gameplay mechanics.

At this point I have to think you’re being deliberately obtuse. I don’t know how much clearer I can be - the devs intentionally left this behavior in the game. Your feelings on the matter are irrelevant. Yes, everyone is aware that the behavior will go away when Kheldians get a rework, but we aren’t there yet, are we?

[UltraAlt]

2 hours ago, tidge said:

If there was a choice between a new AT that followed either the HEAT or VEAT model, with no guess as to what it might be... I'd pick the VEAT model.

 

Which makes me think that if a new Epic Archetype is created, does it really need to be labelled as a HEAT (really that is just an EAT. It wasn't relabelled EAT until after the VEATs were release) or a VEAT?

I mean you don't have to be a hero to pick what was a hero archetype to start play as a hero or what was a villain archetype to start off as a villain any more.

 

If a new Epic Archetype is added, I would just call it an Epic Archetype instead of labeling it as hero or villain (or dystopian/rouge) unless it falls specifically under that archetype in THE CITY or the comic book genre in general. That is to say, Soldiers and Widows are directly related to Arachnos. Kheldians were not directly related to any existing hero group.

 

Because,Kheldians were not directly related any "hero" groups, I think they should have been left as EATs.

Spoiler

I think the HEAT/VEAT thing was a "Red"/"Blue" thing. I mean, why is it any kind of advantage to a hero player to type "blue" instead of "hero". It isn't. However, "red" is fewer characters than "villain".

The "red"/"blue" thing always seemed - and I'm pretty sure that it is true - to be something that villains worked to force the community to adhere to for their gain.

Not only by having to type even fewer characters than heros ("red" having 3 and "hero" having 4), but also to obfuscate that "red" is for "villains"!

Villains are sneaky like that. Isn't that right?

I would also tend to say that Warshades were the first toe-in-the-pond of exploring villainy (Issue 3 release whereas COV was Issue 6). Sure Warshades are "recovering" Nictus which would make them more "rogue" than "villain", but they are obviously leaning more toward the darkside than Peacebringers (by the name alone).

That implies to me that Warshades are really more VEAT than they are HEAT which, again, makes me believe that the Khelidans are more EATs, in general, than HEATs.

[Steampunkette]

5 hours ago, tidge said:

 

I'm here... although I get the feels that current team would bend over backwards to avoid being "explicit". 

 

I find it mentally/visually exhausting to play on a team where someone is 100% exploiting "changeling", but I feel similarly with several other powersets too. Given what the power curve looks like for the rest of the game/ATs, I can't otherwise get worked up about the increase in performance of "exploiters" when the AT(s) are otherwise solidly mediocre(*)... especially in this era of easy set bonuses.

 

For myself, I feel like I "know" what the problem with Kheldians is... and my feels don't align with "things people don't like about them". The core problem as I see it is that the alternate forms powers are basically "stuck" at the base levels they can be taken (6, 20) so they don't really scale like (later choice) powers for other ATs... and the choice of human form powers is pretty limited compared to all the variety possible from other ATs.... in other words, a high-level Nova form is basically blasting with low-tier attacks, and a high-level Dwarf (while able to survive a LOT) is stuck with its Dwarf powers.... unless risking changing forms (or exploiting the changeling).

 

I see ^this^ as being distinct from the long list of player dislikes: KB in the blasts, lack of mezz protection outside of Dwarf, lack of costume in alternate form, etc.

 

(*) mediocre at high level. From levels 6-16; In solo play find the Nova form to be somewhat OP, and the Dwarf is shockingly good up until about level 29. If I never had to face an EB/AV with a solo Kheldian, I probably wouldn't care... but I find them very problematic when trying to solo something like a Penny Yin TF. YMMV.

You are deeply correct on the power-variety of the forms. How when you're in Nova Form you're using early power picks rather than later-game power picks like Solar Flare or Dawnstrike. You can't "Nuke" as a Nova, just as you can't "Blast" as a Dwarf.

 

This is why I think the powers need to be collapsed and the forms functions as Scalar and Cap Modifiers.

 

You'd still have your full list of powers, including Melee Attacks, as a Nova. But your Damage Scalars would shift to better represent a Blaster, including your Defensive Modifiers. So sure, you could keep your Resistance Toggles on while in Nova Form, and benefit from them. Light Form, too. But the amount you'd -get- from them would be lower. And you'd have a 75% Resistance Cap. Or. Hell. Make it 60%. So even if your Light Form pushes you to 85% in Human Form, it caps out at 60% in Nova Form. I imagine a lot of players would still take that trade-off.

 

Do the same thing with Dwarf Form but also make the control aspect of powers (stun duration, knockback distances, etc) increase just like your defensive powers do. And give Dwarf Form a higher Base and Max HP while you're at it so when you pop Essence Boost in Dwarf Form you get the full benefit of it.

 

Hell, if you wanna get SUPER wild with it, you could use power-modification structures to turn Energy Flight into Energy Leap for Dwarf Form and give them a spring attack in place of their Afterburner. Turn Radiant Strike and Incandescent Strike into short-ranged attacks with a commensurate decrease for the increased range for Novas while Dwarves get Proton Scatter as a melee cone with a commensurate damage increase for the smaller area on an AoE attack.

 

And then, and this is the kicker... Allow people to choose not to shapeshift. Both in the 'Humanform is viable on it's own' idea, but also in the "Dwarf Form without model replacing" option, if it's possible. (I don't know if it -is- possible, given the constraints on Granite Armor, but it's a thing)

 

That said... I wouldn't mind if there were also a bunch of "Alt Powers" spread throughout the Kheldian trees so I could make a PB that gives up Pulsar for a PBAoE heal or something. Where there's just more build variety across archetype identity for the Kheldians in general.