sentinel Semi-Reworking the Sentinel into a tanky ranged AT (or, really, anything to make Sentinel better)

[LightMaster]

As some of you may know, the Sentinel Archetype haven’t got their solid identity compared to other ATs. Being a “ranged Scrapper” proved to be fundamentally flawed, as it’s damage don’t even come close to a Scrapper, and it’s reduced Target Cap means it’s AoE is gutted out in overall damage it can do against a group of foes. And if one were to play a ranged Scrapper, then a pure ranged Blaster can already do that job far better in terms of DPS.

 

So what can be done to Sentinel without overshadowing an existing Archetype? Well, instead of being a “ranged Scrapper”, the Sentinel could become a tanky ranged archetype instead.

 

There are superheroes and villains that have a combination of high ranged damage and survivability. Iron Man having his faithful armor that shoots strong energy blasts, War Machine with a similar armor but with a multiplicity of weaponry, The Sentry that uses both melee and ranged powers on top of regenerative abilities, Mr. Freeze with his body suit that can withstand damage and can dish deadly ice projectiles in return, et cetera.

 

With those in mind, it’s only fair that the Sentinel should be reworked into putting emphasis on survivability as a ranged counterpart of a Tanker, but also an opposite where the Sentinel focus on single-target damage and debuff* with less Target Cap. Their DPS still won’t reach the likes of Scrappers, Corruptors or Blasters, but they make up for it with a much more impressive survivability at a mid-range combat if all else fails, and in terms of debuff-inflicting, they surpass the Defender in damage.

 

* Perhaps increasing the value equal to Defender so that any of the Sentinel’s blast power other than Electric Blast (already great on Sent) and Fire Blast (already great and never going wrong with DoT) will have more time to shine without dealing with the Defender’s low damage scalar. Again, to make up for low target cap and mid-range.

 

Vulnerability should probably be enhanced with enemies taking more damage than it already does to make up for the Sentinel’s more limited Target Cap, as well as more severe reducing Resistance to mezzing and debuffs to make it a much more effective Force Multiplier, but otherwise it’ll be left as is.

 

Armor secondaries would be touched accordingly since Super Reflexes is easily a favorite of Sentinels, and I found lot of good uses with Energy Armor, so it’s likely that Defense-oriented Armors and Super Reflexes will remain top tier. Instead, the Resistance-oriented Armor would be buffed to be ahead of Scrapper and Brute, but still behind Tanker’s versions, with the Sentinel’s Resistance cap increased (perhaps around 80 or 85%).

 

The Snipe-replacing powers will probably have to be buffed to have a stronger secondary effect or stronger damage output depending on one’s want. Or have at least one “Tesla Cage” type where it deals Extreme Damage to make up for a lack of Snipe; Tesla Cage is part of what makes Electric Blast so good on Sentinel.

 

As tempting as it is to remove / replace Sentinel entirely, I do not want to see an Archetype that the HC team had put some effort and time to put on. All being said, what would be your idea to improve the Sentinel other than removing it?

Edited 12 hours ago by LightMaster

[macskull]

Just give Sentinels crits and call it a day. Apparently the reason they were supposed to be a “ranged Scrapper” is because their AoEs have melee AT target caps and smaller radii, neither of which are things that immediately come to mind when someone is talking about Scrappers.

[LightMaster]

17 minutes ago, macskull said:

Just give Sentinels crits and call it a day. Apparently the reason they were supposed to be a “ranged Scrapper” is because their AoEs have melee AT target caps and smaller radii, neither of which are things that immediately come to mind when someone is talking about Scrappers.

Yeah, that’s a way for Sentinels to catch up in DPS while keeping their concept. Scrappers have crits, Stalkers have crits, even Corruptors and Controllers have crits (called Scourge and Containment respectively), and Blasters have a “pesudo-crit” in Defiance that grants Damage Bonus which means more damage to not one, but many foes.

 

… Although I’d think that it should be a distinct type of “deal doubled damage” crit that either plays with Vulnerability, or by simply adding another inherent that deals a conditional crit, like Controller having two Inherits (Containment and Overpower), or both. Like making guaranteed crits within two/three seconds of a Vulnerability-targeted foe.

 

Alternatives would be…

• First Strike (100% crit on full health foes, and then occasionally crit on foes with more than 50% health; basically the opposite of Scourge but the decreasing chance as HP lowers is a bit more strict)
• Weak Spots (Chance-based like Scrappers’, but have higher chance against foes that have high Resistance, Defense or ToHit)
• Saving Throw (Any time a Sentinel misses, dodged enough damage or suffered enough damage, it will deal a guaranteed, unmissable crit; especially useful for finishing off a Defense-boosted foe like a Tanker-type Crey Paragon Protrctor)
• Charged Shot (Every four successful strike, the fifth one will be a guaranteed critical hit; missing will not reset the combo, but not using any power for fifteen seconds will)

[golstat2003]

I'd rather do what macskull mentioned without changing Sents too much. Also less change some players would get annoyed with drastic changes to the multiple Sents they may have.

[Troo]

1 hour ago, LightMaster said:

the Sentinel Archetype haven’t got their solid identity compared to other ATs.

 

Just a question - Is the following not accurate?

The Sentinel is a ranged combatant with moderate protective powers and protection against control powers. Sturdier than a Blaster, it also has the ability to distract enemies to avoid being overwhelmed.

 

I thought Sentinels were supposed to have Scrapper level survivabillity not damage.

 

 

 

Edited 12 hours ago by Troo

[LightMaster]

27 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

Just a question - Is the following not accurate?

The Sentinel is a ranged combatant with moderate protective powers and protection against control powers. Sturdier than a Blaster, it also has the ability to distract enemies to avoid being overwhelmed.

 

I thought Sentinels were supposed to have Scrapper level survivabillity not damage.

 

 

 

Yeah, but I’ve also been told that the Sentinel AT is supposed to be a DPS AT and not a tanky AT, and the Scrapper still deals lot more damage in comparison, so it resulted the Sentinel to be a master of none when compared to other ATs other than “the last bastion” unless one go for Electric/SR.

 

A ranged tanky AT would be better off as a seperate AT and not Sentinel.

33 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

I'd rather do what macskull mentioned without changing Sents too much. Also less change some players would get annoyed with drastic changes to the multiple Sents they may have.

I know for sure a rework too drastic will annoy players with multiple Sents, especially with ones built with DPS in mind. That’s why I want to keep an open mind to ensure a solution that makes Sent players happy, with less changes the better.

[Troo]

I get wanting Tank survivabillity, Scrapper melee damage, Blaster ranged damage.. those are all 10s. 

 

Corruptors, similar to what you are saying "Sentinel to be a master of none" are not 10s at anything and yet are one of the best all rounders and very effective.

 

I can see an argument being made that Sentinels should be somehow on par with Corruptors stats. Maybe pushing damage to 8 instead of 7 OR pushing survivabillity to 8 instead of 7, I just don't think folks would like whatever the trade off would be (and there would be a tradeoff).

 

In my opinion, Corruptor SECONDARIES are actually what make them shine and so effective. The bit of control, buffing and/or debuffing at similar range to their primaries makes for some really good synergies where they don't have to be The Best at anything.  Scourge to be honest hits maybe once or twice on typical foes. It's nice but a nothing burger until giant bags of hp show up.

Sentinel secondaries being melee might not mesh very well with ranged attacks. That's a potential flaw and that flaw makes them unique. It's almost like they were built to really NEED their Epic and Patron pools to be trooly effective. Maybe Sentinels could get Epic/Patrons earlier than other archetypes?

 

Sentinel synergy, it's a tough nut to crack.

 

[Triumphant]

At this point, the only change I would like to see to Sentinels is improved range.  I think they're great all-rounders, but the range is just a bit too restrictive IMO.  This can be somewhat overcome by the ATO's and certain Incarnate powers, but it's a very late-game fix to a problem that plagues you throughout character advancement.  I'd like to see all the Sentinel Primary power sets get a 10 or 15 ft  range bump.

[Rudra]

I never viewed Sentinels as ranged Scrappers. After reading this thread, I still don't. They were billed as ranged characters with built in survivability. So personally, I think this thread is approaching the AT from the wrong angle. Sentinels are ranged characters that get Scrapper armors. They can take a beating like no other ranged character can, ignoring mezzes like a melee AT. They lose out on range and damage in exchange. I don't find Sentinels to be particularly fun to run, they pick up resilience at the expense of offensive versatility and I like the versatility of other ATs like Corruptors, but Sentinels just keep going unfazed by their opposition. So while I get the desire to change Sentinels, the OP's proposal seems to be asking for what Sentinels already give. For instance:

 

2 hours ago, LightMaster said:

With those in mind, it’s only fair that the Sentinel should be reworked into putting emphasis on survivability as a ranged counterpart of a Tanker, but also an opposite where the Sentinel focus on single-target damage and debuff* with less Target Cap. Their DPS still won’t reach the likes of Scrappers, Corruptors or Blasters, but they make up for it with a much more impressive survivability at a mid-range combat if all else fails,

This is already the case. Not as sturdy as a Tanker or Brute, Sentinels can still take a beating. Not as damaging as a Scrapper or Blaster, Sentinels are still doing solid damage (for being a ranged armor AT).

 

2 hours ago, LightMaster said:

and in terms of debuff-inflicting, they surpass the Defender in damage.

And I'm just not understanding this part unless the intent is to say the author thinks Sentinels should be competitive with Blasters, Tankers, and Defenders, which I think is a bit much.

 

2 hours ago, LightMaster said:

Armor secondaries would be touched accordingly since Super Reflexes is easily a favorite of Sentinels, and I found lot of good uses with Energy Armor, so it’s likely that Defense-oriented Armors and Super Reflexes will remain top tier. Instead, the Resistance-oriented Armor would be buffed to be ahead of Scrapper and Brute, but still behind Tanker’s versions, with the Sentinel’s Resistance cap increased (perhaps around 80 or 85%).

This part I absolutely disagree with. Sentinels are built to survive, not be the main tank of the group. If I remember correctly, they were billed as the most solo-friendly AT because they can pick off targets at range like a Blaster and take hits from extra aggro (or intended aggro) like a Scrapper. I don't see why they would need their armor sets boosted.

 

2 hours ago, LightMaster said:

As tempting as it is to remove / replace Sentinel entirely, I do not want to see an Archetype that the HC team had put some effort and time to put on. All being said, what would be your idea to improve the Sentinel other than removing it?

And this part of the comment really bothers me. It reads to me like "make this AT work how I want or remove it from the game".

[Riverdusk]

Sentinels are mostly fine the way the are now.   I have an electric/electric that is very fun.  Tbf, I've read it is one of the better combos. 

 

I'd say buff "vulnerability" a slight bit more though since it is their 'special'.

 

Actually probably one of the most annoying things about vulnerability it is that it doesn't stack even with other sentinels (Why?!).  Almost every buff/debuff in the game stacks with "other casters", why not sentinels special?  It makes having multiples of them on the same team (already rare) even less wanted.  I find it a bizarre and anti-teaming limitation. 

 

Edit:  Imagine running an all-sentinel team.  Most all the same AT teams become amazing really.  With an all-sentinel team their special would become almost worthless as they'd all be trying to target the same mobs with vulnerability and being told "invalid target" constantly.  Great fun.

Edited 10 hours ago by Riverdusk

[Psyonico]

1 hour ago, Triumphant said:

At this point, the only change I would like to see to Sentinels is improved range. 

To me, the big thing would be to give TAoEs ST range rather than Cone range.

[macskull]

3 hours ago, Troo said:

Just a question - Is the following not accurate?

It’s not. What “distraction” abilities do Sentinels have? They have no taunt and no other abilities to manage aggro. Using the character creator number scales to justify anything is also not super helpful since those numbers are ultimately meaningless outside of very broad strokes (hell, look at the PB/WS numbers for a perfect example). Sentinels have worse armor values than a Scrapper, worse damage and target caps than a Blaster, and worse force multiplication abilities than Defenders and Corruptors, so where do they fit in in their current form?

[Rudra]

6 minutes ago, macskull said:

Sentinels have worse armor values than a Scrapper

They have a full set of ranged attacks. They can choose to stay out of melee and rain death on their foes. Which is more than any other armored AT can claim. (I'm specifically not counting EATs.)

 

7 minutes ago, macskull said:

worse damage and target caps than a Blaster

They have armor, which is more than any other ranged AT can claim. They can ignore mezzes and soak hits without needing to dip into the Fighting pool or wait for APPs or PPPs, which is more than any other ranged AT can claim. (I'm specifically not counting EATs.)

[macskull]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

They have a full set of ranged attacks. They can choose to stay out of melee and rain death on their foes. Which is more than any other armored AT can claim. (I'm specifically not counting EATs.)

They can choose to stay at range, but some of the best attacks Sentinels have access to are the melee attacks in their epic pools. At any rate, when an AT is presented as a "ranged Scrapper" you'd expect that AT to have armor values identical or at least similar to a Scrapper.

 

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

They have armor, which is more than any other ranged AT can claim. They can ignore mezzes and soak hits without needing to dip into the Fighting pool or wait for APPs or PPPs, which is more than any other ranged AT can claim. (I'm specifically not counting EATs.)

You can make any other ranged AT survivable enough through several avenues, none of which are conversely able to let a Sentinel get around their hard-coded limitations.

 

I suppose you could argue the niche a Sentinel currently occupies is a training-wheels Blaster for people who are still learning the game or who lack the skill or desire to play a Blaster well, and even then that niche only applies while solo or possibly on smaller teams or during the early levels. At higher levels and on larger teams a Sentinel is just a strictly worse Blaster.

Edited 6 hours ago by macskull

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, macskull said:

They can choose to stay at range, but some of the best attacks Sentinels have access to are the melee attacks in their epic pools. At any rate, when an AT is presented as a "ranged Scrapper" you'd expect that AT to have armor values identical or at least similar to a Scrapper.

 

You can make any other ranged AT survivable enough through several avenues, none of which are conversely able to let a Sentinel get around their hard-coded limitations.

 

I suppose you could argue the niche a Sentinel currently occupies is a training-wheels Blaster for people who are still learning the game or who lack the skill or desire to play a Blaster well, and even then that niche only applies while solo or possibly on smaller teams or during the early levels. At higher levels and on larger teams a Sentinel is just a strictly worse Blaster.

*shrug* That is a matter of opinion and I really don't care to argue opinions right now. (For clarification, both of my current Sentinels have one melee attack each. And I am not currently inclined to argue about survivable enough through IO sets versus survivable enough through the AT's provided armor set.)

 

(Edit: Though yes, from my understanding, what you say could be argued as the Sentinel's niche is very much part of what I remember Sentinels being presented as. A tankier ranged character for players that want more survivability without having to grab a melee AT or figuring out pesky things like tactics and set bonuses, or that just want to be able to solo more safely.)

 

Edited 4 hours ago by Rudra

[LightMaster]

10 hours ago, Rudra said:

And this part of the comment really bothers me. It reads to me like "make this AT work how I want or remove it from the game".

I should have worded better since I don’t really want the Sentinel to be removed either and I’m fine with how it is currently, given that HC did at least took time and effort to create a new archetype either. I took it since there’s a few people of the server that straight up suggested to remove Sentinel altogether which is counterproductive.