page 3 [FOCUSED FEEDBACK] Mastermind Archetype Adjustments

[WindDemon21]

2 minutes ago, Dispari said:

The best you can get out of +DMG is +12% currently. Even if it was half it'd be +15%. Hell even if it was the full amount that's only 30%. That sounds like a lot, but pet damage is really low, and you'd always be better off just having more uptime on Sleet, Fortitude, Overgrowth, World of Pain, Forge, or what have you.

Not to mention damage bonuses work off the base power. So when you're already enhancing the power itself for ease sake say 100%, that means every damage bonus is really only half of it's value in increased performance. So a 20% damage bonus, ends up in only 10% more in actual clear speed. One reason why damage bonuses especially (and resist values notable too) are way too low, for a purple i'd expect more around a 10% damage bonus versus 4% etc. I have never once in any build gone "oo a damage bonus" they've always just kinda been there.

[Shin Magmus]

19 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Not to mention damage bonuses work off the base power. So when you're already enhancing the power itself for ease sake say 100%, that means every damage bonus is really only half of it's value in increased performance. So a 20% damage bonus, ends up in only 10% more in actual clear speed. One reason why damage bonuses especially (and resist values notable too) are way too low, for a purple i'd expect more around a 10% damage bonus versus 4% etc. I have never once in any build gone "oo a damage bonus" they've always just kinda been there.

     It's even worse than that.  The 12% dmg bonus is added on top of enhancements in the power AND Supremacy's dmg buff AND Assault's dmg buff: any serious MM will have Leadership so you have to count all of this.  If you're using Musculature Alpha as most (but not all) MMs are, your frankenslotted proc-slotted pets will probably be somewhere between 90% and 130% dmg.  Let's use the high end for this math...

 

130% (enhancements) + 25% (Supremacy) + 11.25% (Assault) = 166.25%

Your set bonus damage (if you chased it) is +12%.  So 166.25% + 12% = 178.25%

178.25 / 166.25 = 1.072

So all that effort boosts your pet damage by an effective whopping 7.2% maximum, even less depending on how much comes from procs and how much your secondary set contributes.

 

   That's the thing about Shin Math: I lay out all the cards and try to account for (and explain) the full environment.  I'm not saying anyone else here leaves details out, I'm just saying that I don't.  Damage bonus is a pretty awful set bonus on players for the reasons above, but it's especially terrible on MMs (as of the current beta patch).  Also remember that teammates providing you with extra damage buffs will completely erase your efforts (especially Kinetics).  One Corruptor or Controller running Assault is +15%, which is more than all of your sets.

 

Edited Friday at 09:36 PM by Shin Magmus

[WindDemon21]

Just now, Shin Magmus said:

     It's even worse than that.  The 12% dmg bonus is added on top of enhancements in the power AND Supremacy's dmg buff AND Assault's dmg buff: any serious MM will have Leadership so you have to count all of this.  If you're using Musculature Alpha as most (but not all) MMs are, your frankenslotted proc-slotted pets will probably be somewhere between 90% and 130% dmg.  Let's use the high end for this math...

 

130% (enhancements) + 25% (Supremacy) + 11.25% (Assault) = 166.25%

Your set bonus damage (if you chased it) is +12%.  So 166.25% + 12% = 178.25%

178.25 / 166.25 = 1.072

So all that effort boosts your pet damage by a, effective whopping 7.2%

 

   That's the thing about Shin Math: I lay out all the cards and try to account for (and explain) the full environment.  I'm not saying anyone else here leaves details out, I'm just saying that I don't.  Damage bonus is a pretty awful set bonus on players for the reasons above, but it's especially terrible on MMs (as of the current beta patch).  Also remember that teammates providing you with extra damage buffs will completely erase your efforts (especially Kinetics).  One Corruptor or Controller running Assault is +15%, which is more than all of your sets.

 

Oh i know, i was starting at just the bare minimum. It's worse the more damage buffs you stack on top of each other.

[kelika2]

You know how over time knockback-less protection sets got knockback protection?  and no fire or dark armors complained about homogenization or whatever trendy word they learned from youtube?

Can we skip the whole 40% thing and no singleenhancementwonders (kismet and the like) and just strait up give all mastermind pets knockback protection?

Mag1 from upgrade1.  at low levels there is not gigantic levels of knockback to really worry about, but when there is your 1-3 pets just go flying.  With mag1 they SHOULD survive/tolerate stuff like earthquake or a clockwork bash

Mag2 from upgrade2, totals to mag3.  this will stop most of the knockback in the game with some exceptions like council rockets or random robot blasts and AV/EB knocks

[Maelwys]

30 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

Can we skip the whole 40% thing and no singleenhancementwonders (kismet and the like) and just strait up give all mastermind pets knockback protection?

Mag1 from upgrade1.  at low levels there is not gigantic levels of knockback to really worry about, but when there is your 1-3 pets just go flying.  With mag1 they SHOULD survive/tolerate stuff like earthquake or a clockwork bash

I mean, they get that NOW if you have at least one set of 3x Gladiators Armor; and since they're PVP IOs the set bonus functions when exemplared even if they're not attuned.
And many MMs can slot Resistance Set IOs into their T1 upgrade; so they're available from very low level.

Even a single instance of this grants the pets "Mag 1.2" KB protection; which is enough to stop most Knockdown powers dead until you're fighting higher than +3s.




Same goes for 3x Fury of the Gladiator (meh).
((I'd really like to see Blessing of the Zephyr, Steadfast Protection and Karma -KB IOs be made to function with them SOON^TM...))
 

Edited Friday at 10:51 PM by Maelwys

[Catalyze]

I bumped the 2 MM's up to level 27 today on Live and Beta. I ran the Who Will Die Part 2 arc in Talos on +1 X 2. This is what I found.

 

1.  The Beta pets had health of 347 T1 vs 317 Live (with 2 levels difference).  T2 pets were 463 Beta and 443 Live (with 1 level difference). And the T3 pets

were both 579 (both even level).  Hit was  68% / 85% T1,  77% / 85% T2,  and 85% / 85% T3. Resists were 2% higher on Beta with 1 +3 SO in pet training.

 

2. Live seemed a touch better in the arc but I couldn't point out any difference in reality. Both ended the final +2 Elite Boss with 1 pet dead (different pet each 

time).  A better player could probably have run it on +1 X 3 without a problem. 

 

3.  I really could not tell any difference between Live and Beta as far as performance in this arc. I felt like Live was a touch tougher.... but that is possibly because

I dislike this MM change. Final Verdict: Beta demons sucked at level 16 yesterday.... really badly. Is it changed now? No clue, I am not going to rerun the arc with 

a new toon. I may copy my level 50 over to Beta and run the MJ arc to see how the Glorious Level 50 with Full Incarnates does in this patch designed around them.

 

4. Totally changing The Subject: Developers.... Please for the Love of All that is Good in the World ...... put in a Travel Base for us!!! Just make something simple and have

an NPC standing next to each purple portal that says : The code for this base is  BETA -  1234.  Have it roll over every patch change.  Long Range Transporter and Mission 

Transporter coupled with the Oro portal is sort of annoying. Every time some player is nice enough to make a Beta base and publish the code, it lasts until the next patch.

[Captain Powerhouse]

I added a Quote to the footer of the Original Post about the changes. Please go back to the original post for some added context and information.

 

 

[ryuplaneswalker]

Some minor feedback.

 

1. I agree with the "It should be 50% of a set bonus transferred" just to make the math easier.

 

2. The ATO's should be able to be slotted into the attacks, but going into the special abilities is a good starting point, but something also needs to be done with the rest of the Auras.

 

3. With all the changes to personal Mastermind Attacks I am worried that the Patron Pool attacks will basically be vestigial parts of the toolkit, If possible I think it would be beneficial for attacks that don't have other utility (like Nightfall) to be given the various Primary Mechanics.

[WindDemon21]

5 hours ago, Maelwys said:

((I'd really like to see Blessing of the Zephyr, Steadfast Protection and Karma -KB IOs be made to function with them SOON^TM...))

This is partly why those are SO key to transfer over too, especially cause most people can't afford or don't know about those (not saying they're THAT expensive but for newer players they surely are).

[Caadium]

I have a question that I do not know how to test.

 

With the move of +To Hit Enh type from the pets to the buff powers how would Guassian's proc work? While there may be others, off the top of my head I can think of Thugs and Beasts; and they both have different situations.

 

• Thugs: Enforcers have Tactics, so on Live as I understand it the BU Proc checks on the 10-second interval like it does for player toons. (I could be wrong though). With the Beta changes, would the BU proc still work as described above, or would it only check when the Buff is applied?
• Beasts: Wolves have Howl, and I had not considered the BU proc for them before, but I would imagine on live it would check every time they used Howl (again, I could be wrong). With the Beta changes, would the BU proc still work as described above, or would it only check when the Buff is applied?

 

Again, I'm not sure how I would test for this. However, if the Beta changes are changing the way things work on Live I figured it was worth bringing up.

[Auroxis]

24 minutes ago, Caadium said:

I have a question that I do not know how to test.

 

With the move of +To Hit Enh type from the pets to the buff powers how would Guassian's proc work? While there may be others, off the top of my head I can think of Thugs and Beasts; and they both have different situations.

 

• Thugs: Enforcers have Tactics, so on Live as I understand it the BU Proc checks on the 10-second interval like it does for player toons. (I could be wrong though). With the Beta changes, would the BU proc still work as described above, or would it only check when the Buff is applied?
• Beasts: Wolves have Howl, and I had not considered the BU proc for them before, but I would imagine on live it would check every time they used Howl (again, I could be wrong). With the Beta changes, would the BU proc still work as described above, or would it only check when the Buff is applied?

 

Again, I'm not sure how I would test for this. However, if the Beta changes are changing the way things work on Live I figured it was worth bringing up.

 

The gauss proc should work as it does on live, except you'd need to change where it is slotted into the Equip Thugs power.

 

[Shin Magmus]

3 hours ago, Auroxis said:

 

The gauss proc should work as it does on live, except you'd need to change where it is slotted into the Equip Thugs power.

 

     This basically needs to be a PSA to the playerbase so they know which IOs need to be swapped around.  This is a buff of course, since it allows more direct dmg enhancement or procs into Enforcers by freeing up a slot in them, but people who are unaware will get blindsided by the next update and find some of their slotted IOs stop working.

[tidge]

I read the quote: I'm not loving the "do 25% less damage against level, because if you play against +3 you now do 30% more (than you would have, but only against +3s)."

 

I get it... there is a perception that MMs were lagging in damage (of all things) against +3s... but my lvl 50 Masterminds were happiest at even levels solo(*1). When my MMs joined +3 content, I never felt like they needed to be providing MOAR DAMAGE... And I'm one of the crazies that has run Penny Yin and Synapse TFs at +3,

 

I ran a test at -1x8 (because I forgot to account for/remove alpha shift) of the Vigilante Mission "Shattered Jar of Flesh", same maps, same strategies, same attack cadence. This was a full-kit MM running Tactics. The only difference between test and live was the placement of objectives and final spawns. Did a defeat all on each. 13 minutes on test, 11 minutes on live. I has slightly more runners to deal with on live, but that is hard to judge. Somewhat inconclusive, as I had intended to do an even level test.

[Paradox Fate]

Honestly though : Would you even take a MM into +5 and above? Real question. Because of what I see, this goes into 'sweat'/optimization territory, just like 2/3/4-stars Advanced Difficulty.

 

I wouldn't, since any splash from the enemies could straight up one-shot any of my melee henchmen from Necromancy.

I'd rather go with a more viable AT in that case. 

 

So 'adjusting' the values to a difficulty many Masterminds probably wouldn't tackle (due to the various power sets and the survivability of different henchmen compared to others) feels ... more of a downscale in this case.

[SuperBear]

Same MM (copied over to Beta). Ran Serpent Drummer arc. Bots/FF. +2/1. 
First issue - Bots do not reliably respond to Attack My Target on Beta. (All Aggressive/Attack).

Works fine on Live. Removed power, re-added. I have no explanation.

 

Beta pets seem to die a bit quicker, could be that they didn't respond to attack commands or "defend" themselves when attacked (Attack Target issue?) 

Also noted that Maintenance Drone is slower to heal on Beta vs. Live.

 

Tried the same settings with a different MM. Necromancy/FF. +2/1.

Same issue with Attack My Target. They just stand there. Seem to get rooted to the spot until I am "out of range" and they TP to me, but still no attack until changed to All Aggressive/Follow. 

Edited Saturday at 01:58 PM by SuperBear

[SuperBear]

Just another perception / opinion. But it seems like the players demanding "more dmg" from MMs are the players who team with them rather than the actual owners of the MMs. 
The whole "ugh, don't you have another hero you can bring to the team (that's not an MM)?" is annoying. 
So now +1 and +2 solo is less effective? We have to be +3 or more to do more? 

Maybe I just don't get it.

 

[Dispari]

24 minutes ago, Paradox Fate said:

Honestly though : Would you even take a MM into +5 and above? Real question. 

Well no, because of how bad they are punished by the purple patch. Which these changes are trying to address. Yes, right now MMs are nigh unplayable in +3 and above. A friend of mine mostly plays MMs and gave up on doing hardmode content because they spent the whole time resummoning and didn't have any fun. If these changes are handled well they might actually be viable options.

[Auroxis]

36 minutes ago, SuperBear said:

So now +1 and +2 solo is less effective? We have to be +3 or more to do more? 

Maybe I just don't get it.

 

 

It's worth noting that because of how MM's scale differently from other AT's it was difficult to balance-test them. After this patch, it will be easier to compare them to other AT's with simple pylon tests. If they aren't ahead of the non-pet AT's against stationary targets where pet AI isn't a factor, then their damage can be bumped up within reason.

[Caadium]

7 hours ago, Auroxis said:

 

The gauss proc should work as it does on live, except you'd need to change where it is slotted into the Equip Thugs power.

 

Thanks. That's what I was hoping would happen. 

 

If this is working on Enforcers I imagine Wolves will also work.

[Caadium]

3 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

     This basically needs to be a PSA to the playerbase so they know which IOs need to be swapped around.  This is a buff of course, since it allows more direct dmg enhancement or procs into Enforcers by freeing up a slot in them, but people who are unaware will get blindsided by the next update and find some of their slotted IOs stop working.

Although I was asking about 1 specific proc, I do think the patch notes do a good job of calling out where certain enhancement types no longer go into pets, but rather into the buff powers.

 

I do think this is a significant improvement for sets like beasts, demons, and thugs especially. Being able to slot resistance/heal/defense/tohit without using pet slots helps a lot. In the case of beasts heal slots in Tame Beasts buffs both wolves & lions.

[gameboy1234]

Is it possible to add, say a red ring around IOs or other enhancements in a power that are not allowed or doing nothing?  Might at least tip some folks off who miss all the patch notes and forum discussion.

 

[gameboy1234]

1 hour ago, SuperBear said:

First issue - Bots do not reliably respond to Attack My Target on Beta. (All Aggressive/Attack).

 

I can't reproduce this. Tested Sat morning 11/15 around 7:30 am Pacific Time.  The button on the Pet window labeled "All Pets" works.  The key bind I set up years ago to issue a "/petcomall att agg" works.  Typing "/petcomall att def" on the command line works.

 

What you describe sounds like a rare issue I've seen before and I think some others have reported also.  The pets are "stuck in a loop" with some issue on the server AI.  They're stuck pathing, or some other problem, is causing them to be "doing something else" and not accepting commands.  It might be related to geometry on the map.  Not sure, but try logging and testing again, it probably will just go away.

 

[Neiska]

1 hour ago, Dispari said:

Well no, because of how bad they are punished by the purple patch. Which these changes are trying to address. Yes, right now MMs are nigh unplayable in +3 and above. A friend of mine mostly plays MMs and gave up on doing hardmode content because they spent the whole time resummoning and didn't have any fun. If these changes are handled well they might actually be viable options.

 

I quite regularly solo at +4 on some of my MMs. So "neigh unplayable" is a bit of a stretch. But I do agree with the idea that it takes a certain build/style to do, not all pets and secondaries are capable of it. But I also think that would be fair to say about any AT. 

 

So tough? Sure. Have to plan ahead. Mainly the EA, Time, and Marine secondaries, but my Robot/Dark can also perform at that difficulty solo.

But unplayable? Not quite.

 

Here are some of my builds that I do +4/8 with frequently -

Robots/EA

Robots/Time

Robots/Marine

Robots/Dark

Demons/EA

Demons/Marine

Necromancer/Time

 

My next MM I was going to try was a Necro/Marine, but that was before the changes were announced and I put a pause on all my MM stuff. I suspect Mercs could also do well, but I have not done any testing with them yet. But I am pretty sure that Ninjas and Beasts are too squishy. I don't have a ton of experience with those two primaries, so that's just a guess on my part. 

 

But yes, the majority of secondaries and a few primaries I don't think can solo at that difficulty. Or if they can, it would be such a slog that it wouldn't be worth the effort. Better to turn it down to +3 and be more efficient. And personally with my playstyle damage was never the main issue. The main obstacle was pets surviving. If your pets can survive without relying on inspirations/temp buffs and so on, that's the first big step. Once your pets are durable enough, its really only a matter of time before you win. More damage only makes the fights faster.

[BRADICAL]

1 hour ago, SuperBear said:

Just another perception / opinion. But it seems like the players demanding "more dmg" from MMs are the players who team with them rather than the actual owners of the MMs. 
The whole "ugh, don't you have another hero you can bring to the team (that's not an MM)?" is annoying. 
So now +1 and +2 solo is less effective? We have to be +3 or more to do more? 

Maybe I just don't get it.

Yeah—MMs are played so differently by so many people, and are very subjective in terms of powerset combos, builds, and individual playstyles more than any other AT, where you can absolutely perform magnitudes worse than someone who's going for the maximum sweaty gamer performance using full proc bomb builds, non-stop attack chains and a stash full of team insps to cover up any flaws (I'm one of those people, but I understand how the AT caters to more than just that one specific thing and in an ideal world, it should be able to perform anywhere without having to rely on so many crutches to make it work).

 

ST DPS has always been high though, even against +4 on Live, and there have been ways to solve both pet survivability and AoE damage for quite a while now to allow that ST DPS to shine, with Demons/Marine being viable just about everywhere (albeit very clunky at times), including HM. The poor community perception the AT has is going to take a while of iterating on their QoL issues to really pick them up from here, but at least things are on the right track to move forward even if it had to come at the cost of even con DPS taking a dive. What my current Pylon times show at least is that the DPS is now much closer in line with other pet-based DPS benchmarks, and that's far from the worst position to be in.

[Lunar Ronin]

2 hours ago, Paradox Fate said:

Honestly though : Would you even take a MM into +5 and above? Real question. Because of what I see, this goes into 'sweat'/optimization territory, just like 2/3/4-stars Advanced Difficulty.

 

I wouldn't, since any splash from the enemies could straight up one-shot any of my melee henchmen from Necromancy.

I'd rather go with a more viable AT in that case. 

 

So 'adjusting' the values to a difficulty many Masterminds probably wouldn't tackle (due to the various power sets and the survivability of different henchmen compared to others) feels ... more of a downscale in this case.

 

Sure.  I've successfully done all Mastermind +2 and +3 advanced difficulty mode TFs and SFs without issue.  Mastermind is actually a good AT for them considering their single target damage.  And that was before these changes.  Why not +5?

 

Honestly, people grossly over-inflate the issues with Masterminds.  Do they have issues?  Oh yes.  But mostly their issues are due to jank and speed, not "lack of damage," and Page 3 deals with the survivability issue.