page 3 [FOCUSED FEEDBACK] Super Strength Adjustments

[Zahnee]

13 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

People can still have their proc monster, super damage builds.

Let’s see your SS Tanker with a proc monster super damage build.

[Verfall]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I agree with this. If it was so OP then that should have been addressed 20 years ago. It's been fine for over 20 years and it hasn't broken the game.

 

Thank you for answering my question.

As someone who was there 21 years ago, it was only fine because stacking removed the crash. Once that went away it was an annoying as hell power that was required to make your tank damage viable. Now that tank damage has been increased, the toggle power buffs still have us past the old damage problems with no annoying crash. I'm honestly overjoyed this is happening. I just want to zen out and not worry about Fing crashing ruining my flow. Only DPS chasers and people afraid of change are complaining from what I'm seeing. This is a QoL thing I've been praying for for 2 decades.

[Zahnee]

Just now, Verfall said:

As someone who was there 21 years ago, it was only fine because stacking removed the crash. Once that went away it was an annoying as hell power that was required to make your tank damage viable. Now that tank damage has been increased, the toggle power buffs still have us past the old damage problems with no annoying crash. I'm honestly overjoyed this is happening. I just want to zen out and not worry about Fing crashing ruining my flow. Only DPS chasers and people afraid of change are complaining from what I'm seeing. This is a QoL thing I've been praying for for 2 decades.

Except it comes in the form of a backhand to Tankers. Not only do you do less damage with UM but you’re locked out of Hand Clap v2. Don’t believe me? Test it out on a combination of pylons and clear speeds. 

[ScarySai]

On that note, the nerf to damage buffs tanks ate a bit ago should probably be reverted.

 

It's related to super strength and not off topic, because I'm 99% sure that nerf was aimed at rage.

[Gobbledigook]

I think most knew that SS was not really a good combo with defense armors because of the -defense debuff in Rage. If SS were to be taken then it was advised to overcap defense to compensate if possible. this came at extra build expense. A lot of players just did not use SS with defense sets, which is a shame.

 

Now they have alienated the other half of the armor sets with a -resistance debuff on top.....well done, great thinking there.

 

They introduce UM which is not good enough unless they adjust some damage/activation numbers in the set also and think that is another good choice option . None of it is a good choice option.

 

 

Edited December 17 by Gobbledigook

[ScarySai]

The main problem with UM on tanks is you get a sobering taste of just how weak super strength actually is on similar footing to other sets.

[Psi-bolt]

36 minutes ago, Zahnee said:

It’s 100% relevant because my argument continues to be if a melee powerset has a massive survivability and damage penalty it should be the number one performing set. But it’s not even top 5. 
 

The original crash barely has a justification and no one can prove that it does. 

It’s irrelevant to the changes on the test server.   Rage has a crash now and will if this change goes through.  I’m not a fan of Rage’s crash, but I’m also OK with UM.  
 

I think it’s telling that folks aren’t really making suggestions around making UM better. 

[golstat2003]

2 hours ago, ScarySai said:

 

Then we are in agreement. Some people really seem to think that -20% resist wouldn't hurt a set like SR, and are just flat out wrong.

 

I just like them to stop spending time on the silliness that is rage. Just change it into a glorified build up and buff the rest of SS. Which I think has been suggested multiple times over the years.

[golstat2003]

2 hours ago, Captain Citadel said:

And this is why I want the devs to do something about proc-loading, because it really feels like the intended design behind IO sets has always been to use the sets, not to derive superior damage output by slapping together a bunch of random pieces. I think it would force them to work harder to balance powersets around each other instead of balancing them around procs.

 

Procs pretty much hide the fact that there are multiple things that actually need to be BROUGHT/BUFFED up, just as there are things that DO need to be nerfed.

 

In game where the meta is damage, damage and more damage, no one should be surprised when players chase procs for sets they feel are low damage. 

 

And water is wet.

[aethereal]

1 hour ago, golstat2003 said:

 

Procs pretty much hide the fact that there are multiple things that actually need to be BROUGHT/BUFFED up, just as there are things that DO need to be nerfed.

 

In game where the meta is damage, damage and more damage, no one should be surprised when players chase procs for sets they feel are low damage. 

 

I think this is disingenuous.  People aren't chasing procs for "sets that are low damage," they're chasing procs because procs are a huge damage add, no matter what the base damage of a set.  And Super Strength is perfect for procs because it removes the need to slot for accuracy.

 

Katana's "Soaring Dragon" on a Scrapper does 112.6 damage, double if it crits.  If you assume 100% damage enhancement and a 30% crit rate, that gives you an expected damage of 292.75.

 

Super Strength's Haymaker (not one of the "good" powers, and on a slightly shorter recharge than Soaring Dragon) on a Tanker does 86.6 damage.  It can accept 4 non-unique damage procs (Touch of Death, Mako's Bite, Perfect Zinger, Explosive Strike), and still have enough slots left over to two-slot damage for 90% damage enhancement.  Each of those procs has a 55.4% chance to activate, and does 71.75 damage when it activates.  Also then you take 70% damage enhancement from (single-stacked!) Rage.  The total damage here is 86.6 * 2.6 + 0.554 * 4 * 71.75 = 384 damage, way more than the procless Scrapper with a great crit rate.

 

I don't mean this to be the be-all, end-all calculation for Super Strength as a set, and I'm pretty agnostic about whether Rage needs changes.  But let's not pretend that procs are just a way to shore up damage for low-performing sets -- they're crazy powerful, and Super Strength is a really good set (and Tanker a really good AT) to go proc-heavy on.  And that has to be taken into account somehow.  Now, maybe even with all that, it still doesn't need changes -- like I said, I'm agnostic.  But we need to start from the principle that you can't be blind to this unique potential of this set.

Edited December 17 by aethereal

[PeregrineFalcon]

31 minutes ago, aethereal said:

I don't mean this to be the be-all, end-all calculation for Super Strength as a set, and I'm pretty agnostic about whether Rage needs changes.  But let's not pretend that procs are just a way to shore up damage for low-performing sets -- they're crazy powerful, and Super Strength is a really good set (and Tanker a really good AT) to go proc-heavy on.  And that has to be taken into account somehow.

I disagree with your apparent premise that Super Strength, or Rage, must be nerfed because of procs. If procs are a problem then PROCS should be nerfed NOT Rage or Super Strength.

[PyroBeetle]

29 minutes ago, aethereal said:

Super Strength's Haymaker (not one of the "good" powers, and on a slightly shorter recharge than Soaring Dragon) on a Tanker does 86.6 damage.  It can accept 4 non-unique damage procs (Touch of Death, Mako's Bite, Perfect Zinger, Explosive Strike), and still have enough slots left over to two-slot damage for 90% damage enhancement.  Each of those procs has a 55.4% chance to activate, and does 71.75 damage when it activates.  Also then you take 70% damage enhancement from (single-stacked!) Rage.  The total damage here is 86.6 * 2.6 + 0.554 * 4 * 71.75 = 384 damage, way more than the procless Scrapper with a great crit rate.

Not only this but the excessive use of procs also cleans up whether or not rage crash affects your damage output significantly. There is a very good build out there which is an old granite/SS proc based tank. Procs dont care about granite penalty nor rage crash and the synergy between the two is rather nice as a single power basically makes you immune to most damage in granite and rage means you dont need to slot accuracy. I am not saying that it is the most powerful toon, but I am saying that it is the extreme edge of proc twisting.

 

Rage is not about damage it is about to hit, the damage is nice but the to hit is what makes the power what it is for proc builds.

[Zahnee]

None of this proves that SS proc builds beat out other powerset proc builds (try to keep it within the same AT).

[arcane]

Think there is a lot of truth to the points that “1 defense = 2 resistance is a misleading metric” because of defense’s need for DDR, the way the inspirations compare, etc. Therefore I think they should cut the -20% resistance in half and call it a day.

[arcane]

47 minutes ago, Zahnee said:

None of this proves that SS proc builds beat out other powerset proc builds (try to keep it within the same AT).

Beats out in what metric? Pylon? AoE DPS potential? Average clear times of an arbitrary mission? Added mitigation/CC? Sometimes I would like to see more of the “demands for data” style posts including some clarification on how exactly their demands can be satisfied. 
 

It isn’t obvious to me at all that SS is only low/mid tier.

Edited December 17 by arcane

[ScarySai]

1 hour ago, aethereal said:

People aren't chasing procs for "sets that are low damage," they're chasing procs because procs are a huge damage add

 

Every single dual pistols player would like a word with you.

 

It's honestly insane to me how many years in we are and there's still insane misunderstandings about procs.

Edited December 17 by ScarySai

[Super Atom]

Should we give proc slotting a whimsical name like Changeling to make it ok for some people?

 

 

DANGER SLOTTING

 

ACTION SLOTTING

Edited December 17 by Super Atom

[ScarySai]

I just think its rich that people genuinely think removing/fixing procs will magically make battle axe bad and super strength top tier.

[Zahnee]

11 minutes ago, arcane said:

Beats out in what metric? Pylon? AoE DPS potential? Average clear times of an arbitrary mission? Added mitigation/CC? Sometimes I would like to see more of the “demands for data” style posts including some clarification on how exactly their demands can be satisfied. 
 

It isn’t obvious to me at all that SS is only low/mid tier.

I’ll take anything other than “I think therefore it is.” You can find one of my early posts on this thread where I show my build and talk about my results from comparing Rage to UM. It’s not a deep dive like I’d like it to be but I’m hoping I can get to that one this weekend. 
 

Later on I’ll even break down my build philosophy to show you why a 6 slot proc monster isn’t even practical.

[ScarySai]

Its practical but it typically requires that you know how to build a character.

 

Idk where this idea that only ss can do that came from, though. Rage's tohit isnt neccesary for proc builds, I don't know why people in this thread keeping saying that, its demonstrably wrong.

[arcane]

Think if you’re trying to understand, your best bet is to focus on the words people are actually using rather than creating straw men. For instance in this last post you’ve implied that anyone has ever claimed SS is “necessary” for proc builds when the only thing being said is that perma tohit buffs making proc building *easier*. Which is objectively true and should be easy to agree to IMO.

[ScarySai]

Not really, unless you completely neglect accuracy and/or the higher multiplier weapon sets have. 

 

When one claims rage breaks the game "because of procs" without evidence to farm likes or whatever, such claims deserve scrutiny. 

 

The one thing rage's tohit really helps with is something like cimerorans, or having a buffer against cascading tohit debuffs.

Edited December 17 by ScarySai

[Troo]

in before the 'UNFOCUSED FEEDBACK - Super Strength Adjustments' thread starts.

[arcane]

Just now, ScarySai said:

Not really, unless you completely neglect accuracy and/or the higher multiplier weapon sets have. 

 

When one claims rage breaks the game "because of procs" without evidence to farm likes or whatever, such claims deserve scrutiny. 

Well I agree with your second paragraph. I don’t think Rage is breaking the game now. As for the first paragraph, true, but the point is an SS *can* more or less completely neglect accuracy compared to other sets, and needing less of one thing often opens up other opportunities in the build. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

35 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Every single dual pistols player would like a word with you.

 

Really? My DP/SR Sent is no more proced out than any other character I've built. I prefer set bonuses. Looking at the build right now, even less so. I see 5 attacks with 1 proc and 1 with 2 and that one is a ragnarok set with the KB proc and an SA: KB to KD. I've looked at a lot of the procmonster builds thrown around here. I wouldn't enjoy any of them and that's why I don't build like that.

Even on the mains, I know I could get better DPS if I tossed aside concept, threw in gloom on the tank and brute, more procs, less mitigation, hell, I was reading the original forums pylon thread last night and saw the post where I ripped off my wings to get hasten into the build. Not worth it. Course, now I can have both.

Edit: And I'm adding to the derailment. I still like the changes as laid out and hope to see them hit live soon so I can crank up an SS character I won't hate. Probably an SS/Inv brute.

Edited December 17 by Bill Z Bubba