Just delete Rage at this point.

[Major_Decoy]

53 minutes ago, CoeruleumBlue said:

Why on Earth did Super Strength ever have a defense and endurance debuff?

Because the developers of the game got some inspiration from Dungeons and Dragons, like a guaranteed 5% chance to hit and a guaranteed 5% chance to miss. I believe also Rage. Originally it was a magnitude 16 stun because there's no "fatigue" system in the game. Shortly after they got rid of Perma-unstoppable, they changed Rage to be -endurance instead. From the January 18th, 2005 patch notes: 

• Super Strength/Rage: Removed Disorient effect after power expires. Instead, Rage will drain your Endurance when it expires. * Reduced its Endurance cost to activate the power, and slightly reduced its Defense Debuff.

Apparently, and I'd forgotten this, it stunned and debuffed defense (more strongly than it does now)

 

D&D barbarian Rage, on crash, did -2 str -2 dex, and fatigued.

 

I believe it was done this way because when people are trying to make a "The Hulk" style character in dungeons and dragons, they do typically make a Barbarian. (I don't know if D&D's barbarian class was inspired at all by The Hulk)

[Psi-bolt]

2 hours ago, kelika2 said:

One thing I hate about the city of heroes community is how they try to distance themselves from other MMOs but when it comes to balancing its all about dummytesting, or you call it pylon damage.

 

meanwhile 99.9% of the game is wading through enemies in seconds and anything worthy of "stand there and beat it up" gets more lore pets in its face than a theme-less costume contest

A perfect encapsulation of why comparing sets via pylon testing is at best inadequate and at worst manipulative.   That’s not the game we’re actually playing. 

[Captain Fabulous]

2 hours ago, Psi-bolt said:

A perfect encapsulation of why comparing sets via pylon testing is at best inadequate and at worst manipulative.   That’s not the game we’re actually playing. 

But don't tell that to [redacted] or [redacted] because you'll get [redacted] for saying [redacted] about [redacted].

[arcane]

we’re sorry, but two to three alleged people in the distant wilderness prefer beanbag and the full unstoppable crash. overruled.

[Ghost]

Wow.  So much rage in this thread!

 

 

 

 

 

I'll see myself out now....

 

 

 

Edited Sunday at 03:36 PM by Ghost

[CoeruleumBlue]

7 hours ago, Major_Decoy said:

Because the developers of the game got some inspiration from Dungeons and Dragons, like a guaranteed 5% chance to hit and a guaranteed 5% chance to miss. I believe also Rage. Originally it was a magnitude 16 stun because there's no "fatigue" system in the game. Shortly after they got rid of Perma-unstoppable, they changed Rage to be -endurance instead. From the January 18th, 2005 patch notes: 

• Super Strength/Rage: Removed Disorient effect after power expires. Instead, Rage will drain your Endurance when it expires. * Reduced its Endurance cost to activate the power, and slightly reduced its Defense Debuff.

Apparently, and I'd forgotten this, it stunned and debuffed defense (more strongly than it does now)

 

D&D barbarian Rage, on crash, did -2 str -2 dex, and fatigued.

 

I believe it was done this way because when people are trying to make a "The Hulk" style character in dungeons and dragons, they do typically make a Barbarian. (I don't know if D&D's barbarian class was inspired at all by The Hulk)

 

Yes, but what does that have to do with making Super Strength into a rage-based power? Lots of people above want Super Strength to make a character that's more like Superman, or Spiderman, or various other characters rather than the Hulk. This is why people are asking for a "Raging Strength." Everyone who has been in this game for a while already knows about the stuff like a 5% hit and miss chance. That doesn't explain why Rage is built into Super Strength, and absolutely not built into any of the other powersets such as the ones involving weapons. We already have Unleash Potential from Force of Will that comes with a damage buff and a crash, most armors regardless of what they're based on have an option for a crash, there's basically no reason to equate Super Strength = D&D Barbarian Rage, especially not when most people's idea of a super strength character is probably going to look more like Superman, Spider Man, or even Iron Man than the Hulk.

 

If I hear Super Strength in a superhero game I'm probably thinking of a flying brick like Superman or Homelander to be honest, and while Hulk and Hulk fists are pretty popular, making it so you can play Hulk but not Superman or Spider-Man when those are more popular than Hulk is weird. The Thing is not as popular as the Hulk but is also basically the Hulk without the rage, and you might as well use Stone Melee without the stone hammer for Superman lifting a rock over his head like in comics pictures if you're going to make Super Strength all about the rage. Might as well just call it Raging Strength at that point anyway and drop the idea of having a plain Super Strength set entirely, since Super Strength can be realized through other sets like Stone Melee, Sonic Melee, Martial Arts, Street Justice, or sets like ones where you have a weapon, but also you're obviously really strong. 

[Snarky]

23 hours ago, Captain Citadel said:

It seems pretty clear that people fighting over any changes to the Rage crash was a significant factor in the recent proposed Super Strength changes getting pulled from the latest patch at the last minute.

Why is this power still a thing? Every other attack powerset in the game has Build Up or Aim. The set's base damage is inherently lower because of the assumption that it will always be up. Unleashed Might was a better power in almost every way, largely because of the lack of crash.

If this one power is what's holding back a full rework (and I'm not sure what else it could be, since Rage is not a weak or short-duration buff) maybe it's time we got rid of it.

If Super Strength can't feel "super" without at least one stack of perma-Rage, then Rage is a problem and needs to go.

so.  i play a little chess so i notice patterns.  this is not the first time, nor will it be the last, that this exact same scenario has played out.  and Rage will never change in this game, according to my magic 8 ball "highly unlikely"

 

my main issue with Rage is...  that it is the most one dimensional approach to buffing stregth.  should it exist?  sure, maybe.  a lot of Super strength comic characters have Rage issues/  Do they all, hmmmm   Wow.  No.  yet every single Super Strength character in CoH/V has Rage.  so very very stupid from a design standpoint.  on the bright side, if you nail your foot to the floor with your first crossbow bolt shot then at least you know exactly where you will fight the battle.  one less thing to think about...  brilliant.

[Major_Decoy]

4 hours ago, CoeruleumBlue said:

 

If I hear Super Strength in a superhero game I'm probably thinking of a flying brick like Superman or Homelander to be honest, and while Hulk and Hulk fists are pretty popular, making it so you can play Hulk but not Superman or Spider-Man when those are more popular than Hulk is weird. The Thing is not as popular as the Hulk but is also basically the Hulk without the rage, and you might as well use Stone Melee without the stone hammer for Superman lifting a rock over his head like in comics pictures if you're going to make Super Strength all about the rage. 

 

What Rage does represent, somewhat well, is the common Super Strength trope of "I'm done pulling my punches". And double and triple stacked rage is then blowing past those limits.

 

And that could be cool... if there were ever any reason in this game to pull your punches, if you weren't CONSTANTLY blowing past your limits. 

 

Thematically for Super Strength, there is something that rage could represent, but it's not named well (because not everyone who decides to stop holding back is angry when they do it) and it's not exactly well mechanically implemented.

 

Unyielding Might would also represent this thematically, but it'd lose the "I'm pushing myself even harder" aspect that double stacked rage would allow. And there's still no reason to pull your punches. The only reason to ever turn it off is because maybe you like Handclap original flavor.

 

Edit:

 

I mean, there are kind of ways to represent "blowing past your limits" that could be implemented in the game. Like, a toggle with a maximum duration of two minutes, no crash, but it only recharges when you use Rest.

Edited Sunday at 08:16 PM by Major_Decoy

[Rudra]

17 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

 

What Rage does represent, somewhat well, is the common Super Strength trope of "I'm done pulling my punches". And double and triple stacked rage is then blowing past those limits.

 

And that could be cool... if there were ever any reason in this game to pull your punches, if you weren't CONSTANTLY blowing past your limits. 

 

Thematically for Super Strength, there is something that rage could represent, but it's not named well (because not everyone who decides to stop holding back is angry when they do it) and it's not exactly well mechanically implemented.

 

Unyielding Might would also represent this thematically, but it'd lose the "I'm pushing myself even harder" aspect that double stacked rage would allow. And there's still no reason to pull your punches. The only reason to ever turn it off is because maybe you like Handclap original flavor.

 

Edit:

 

I mean, there are kind of ways to represent "blowing past your limits" that could be implemented in the game. Like, a toggle with a maximum duration of two minutes, no crash, but it only recharges when you use Rest.

Not arguing against you, just giving examples of what you are talking about.

 

Rage, fury, other words meaning anger a la Hulk and a few other emotional characters.

Adrenaline surge a la some fighters.

Ki, qi, chi, spirit, and inner strength for more oriental themed and mystic (not magic) or spiritual themed characters.

Various spells that boost physical strength for magic-themed characters.

Holding back less than normal for super strong characters whose casual strength will cause ridiculous amounts of coincidental damage like Superman and that British hero in one of the X-Men comic series.

Sheer willpower to do more than you normally can at cost to self for more mundane characters.

 

And in most cases, not all, the character is left at least moderately tired.

[TheMoneyMaker]

6 hours ago, Rudra said:

Not arguing against you, just giving examples of what you are talking about.

 

Rage, fury, other words meaning anger a la Hulk and a few other emotional characters.

Adrenaline surge a la some fighters.

Ki, qi, chi, spirit, and inner strength for more oriental themed and mystic (not magic) or spiritual themed characters.

Various spells that boost physical strength for magic-themed characters.

Holding back less than normal for super strong characters whose casual strength will cause ridiculous amounts of coincidental damage like Superman and that British hero in one of the X-Men comic series.

Sheer willpower to do more than you normally can at cost to self for more mundane characters.

 

And in most cases, not all, the character is left at least moderately tired.

I'm not familiar with the comic book instances of super strong characters boosting their output and then being left moderately tired for their efforts.....other than classic Hulk stories where his rage would subside and, if not provoked further, might revert to his Banner alter ego. Superman doesn't tire out mid-fight, Spider-man doesn't suddenly ask for a timeout to catch his breath, the Thing doesn't need a moment to rest up before clobberin' time continues, Shazam doesn't stop to say his magic word to refresh his strength and stamina, etc etc etc.

 

Super strength is essentially the Hulk powerset, and I think its time we move away from that mindset. The better way to build a Hulk is a super strength brute that grows stronger with fury and only grows weaker as fury drops off from non-engagement.

[Major_Decoy]

18 minutes ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

Spider-man doesn't suddenly ask for a timeout to catch his breath

 

He absolutely does. He rarely needs it, but he'll ask for it. When he does need it, it's usually just because he's been talking too much. 

 

That aside, when they do go all out like that, it's often a "keep on pushing until the fight is over and then collapse" type thing. You don't see them stop in the middle of the fight because they keep pushing until the fight ends. Unlike Rage, they have some control over when the crash comes. Think about the Spider-man/Doctor Octopus fight in Spider-man two. He puts everything he has into catching that train, he is using all his strength and pushing harder. He stops the train and then he's out.

 

It's not something that happens every fight because these heroes rarely go all out.  We shouldn't expect them to be running Rage or Unyielding Might all the time.

[Troo]

"Just delete Rage at this point."

 

lol

 

No.

 

Spoiler

Are edge case builds over leveraging Rage a problem? Yes, absolutely.

 

Is there going to be a crash with Rage? Yes, that's the concept.

 

What's the solution? It's not so easy to honor existing characters, make improvements, and maintain some sort of balance.

 

A mutually exclusive alternate to Rage is great as it opens up more options for character concepts.

 

It would be nice to see the Super Strength powers at least be better than pool powers.

 

How would I do it?

• You get Unleashed Might and Rage gets a boost. *heads explode*
• Some or most of the damage scales increases from Unleashed Might go directly to the powers.
• Rage should be a little stronger than the toggle. The length of the power is kind of it's thing.

So what can offset making Rage stronger? Answer that and you might have an idea what the next proposal might look like.

 

 

[macskull]

19 hours ago, Psi-bolt said:

A perfect encapsulation of why comparing sets via pylon testing is at best inadequate and at worst manipulative.   That’s not the game we’re actually playing. 

In any system with options that aren't just "everything is identical except the color of the FX" there is going to be an option that is objectively the best at a particular task, and an option that is objectively the worst at that same task. This game's players have been coming up with benchmarks for these types of performance metrics since the game was new despite the original devs doing their best to hide a lot of the actual behind-the-scenes information - remember Brawl Index? Of course comparing sets via pylon testing doesn't tell the whole story. Neither does any other benchmark. Players who are capable of interpreting the results of these tests already know that. If you think you have a better idea for a benchmarking system that does tell the whole story, feel free to propose it.

[CoeruleumBlue]

12 hours ago, Major_Decoy said:

 

What Rage does represent, somewhat well, is the common Super Strength trope of "I'm done pulling my punches". And double and triple stacked rage is then blowing past those limits.

 

And that could be cool... if there were ever any reason in this game to pull your punches, if you weren't CONSTANTLY blowing past your limits. 

 

Thematically for Super Strength, there is something that rage could represent, but it's not named well (because not everyone who decides to stop holding back is angry when they do it) and it's not exactly well mechanically implemented.

 

Unyielding Might would also represent this thematically, but it'd lose the "I'm pushing myself even harder" aspect that double stacked rage would allow. And there's still no reason to pull your punches. The only reason to ever turn it off is because maybe you like Handclap original flavor.

 

Edit:

 

I mean, there are kind of ways to represent "blowing past your limits" that could be implemented in the game. Like, a toggle with a maximum duration of two minutes, no crash, but it only recharges when you use Rest.

 

Yeah what I think I would personally do with Rage at this point is make it a mutually exclusive pick with some other kind of power up power like how Dark Regeneration and Cloak of Sustenance are mutually exclusive powers in Dark Armor. Then we can also put the Rage power into other sets like weapon sets and Sonic Melee and maybe even Energy Melee, Psi Melee, and any kind of melee set that isn't thematically centered about being graceful and has a generic power up (so not Dark Melee where the power up is Siphon Life,) and make it mutually exclusive with the other power up option.

 

Then we won't need nonsense like "Super Strength and Superer Strength," we can just have a Rage option in any set where it would be thematically appropriate, and the people who want to Rage with Super Strength, or Titan Weapons, or Sonic Melee, or Battle Axe or whatever can do it, and the people who want those sets and don't want to rage can pick the other one. It almost seems like it should just be an archetype/class feature but it's not Brute Fury since Brutes can be defense-based and basically Dexterity-based in D&D terms. Since we already have basically Rages built into armors but they're optional and you can just not take them, and that's not linked to archetypes, it's probably not bad at all to just make it an option you can pick in many melee sets or skip it. 

[OverkillEngine]

2 hours ago, CoeruleumBlue said:

Yeah what I think I would personally do with Rage at this point is make it a mutually exclusive pick with some other kind of power up power like how Dark Regeneration and Cloak of Sustenance are mutually exclusive powers in Dark Armor. Then we can also put the Rage power into other sets like weapon sets and Sonic Melee and maybe even Energy Melee, Psi Melee, and any kind of melee set that isn't thematically centered about being graceful and has a generic power up (so not Dark Melee where the power up is Siphon Life,) and make it mutually exclusive with the other power up option.

 

Rage would at least be easier to balance without making the rest of the SS set sucking butt in its absence if it were treated and tweaked to be a mid-point choice between Build Up and Unleashed Might.

Or in other words:

• Build up - highest magnitude buff, least duration, moderate recharge (stacking not really possible)
• Rage - moderate magnitude buff, moderate duration, long recharge (basically makes multi-stacking improbable if not outright impossible)
• Unleashed Might - lowest magnitude buff, permanent duration while toggled

At that point there would also be no need for a crash which introduces a whole extra layer of balance fuckery to complicate things. And makes them easier to proliferate to other sets - a set with slow animating but high damaging attacks might want Rage or UM instead of Build up to maximize the number of attacks within the buff window. Characters without access to mezz protection toggles are likely to prefer Build Up or Rage to Unleashed Might. Like Blasters or certain Kheldian builds or (shudder) non-perma Dominators.

Edited 23 hours ago by OverkillEngine

[Psi-bolt]

5 hours ago, macskull said:

 Of course comparing sets via pylon testing doesn't tell the whole story. Neither does any other benchmark. Players who are capable of interpreting the results of these tests already know that. If you think you have a better idea for a benchmarking system that does tell the whole story, feel free to propose it.

I’m not sure what your point is, we appear to agree.   We’re saying the same thing, that pylon testing is inadequate.  When you say that players who are capable of interpreting these tests know that, they sure as heck don’t act like it from what I have seen.  As I said, using this one metric is at worst manipulative.  Beating on a single target with a hyper optimized attack chain doesn’t provide much information of value in my opinion.
 

I have a personal benchmark that I use when I compare sets, it has both qualitative and quantitative elements to it.   For those who value damage over all, it wouldn’t be helpful.  I tend to prefer testing actual content.  I don’t claim that my view should guide decisions.  But those who spent 20 pages complaining about Rage did.

[lemming]

On 12/21/2025 at 12:09 AM, Major_Decoy said:

Because the developers of the game got some inspiration from Dungeons and Dragons

I think a lot of inspiration came from Champions, though it also had the ~5%  (rolling a 3 or 18) bit, which probably was inspired by D&D anyway.

 

Too bad, Hero never did get the Champs game working, though that was way pre-mmo days. 

[srmalloy]

On 12/20/2025 at 10:58 PM, CoeruleumBlue said:

We have sets like Titan Weapons, Staff Fighting, and most types of swords that have stances that give you more defense. Super Strength I think should be like that conceptually, like the superhero who uses their muscles to bounce bullets off their chest or arms, not exactly the opposite like it is now.

So your premise is that a character's offense powerset should be their defensive powerset? What about someone being able to "lift heavy thnigs" (sic) inherently implies being any harder to hurt? 

[Major_Decoy]

3 hours ago, lemming said:

I think a lot of inspiration came from Champions, though it also had the ~5%  (rolling a 3 or 18) bit, which probably was inspired by D&D anyway.

 

Too bad, Hero never did get the Champs game working, though that was way pre-mmo days. 

 

 Oh, yeah, a lot of inspiration from Champions too, Health and Endurance were probably inspired by champions and that Health represents Stun (and City of Heroes has no body stat), knockback, resistance, a lot of stuff. However, nothing in the Champion rule book really suggests anything like rage.

[Rudra]

17 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

 

 Oh, yeah, a lot of inspiration from Champions too, Health and Endurance were probably inspired by champions and that Health represents Stun (and City of Heroes has no body stat), knockback, resistance, a lot of stuff. However, nothing in the Champion rule book really suggests anything like rage.

Rage is a constructed power like the rest of the powers in the power sets. In this case it would be the Aid power with the Variable Effect: 2 powers at once (STR and OCV), Increased Recovery Time, Self Only, and Side Effects modifiers.

 

Edited 16 hours ago by Rudra
Edited to add missed "Increased Recovery Time, ".

[Major_Decoy]

16 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Rage is a constructed power like the rest of the powers in the power sets. In this case it would be the Aid power with the Variable Effect: 2 powers at once (STR and OCV), Increased Recovery Time, Self Only, and Side Effects modifiers.

 

 

I wasn't trying to say that you couldn't make a power like Rage (the system, after all, is very flexible), but rather that nothing in the book suggests that characters with Super Strength should have Rage and that Rage is a thing that only Super Strength characters should have.

 

In Champions it would make perfect sense to give a blaster the Aid power with similar modifiers.

Edited 16 hours ago by Major_Decoy

[Championess]

Rage is THE backbone of the whole of Super Strength and to a lesser extent Foot Stomp.  You should know what you're getting into when you make a SS character.  If I wanted a similar physical set that I didn't want to build around Rage I'd just make a Street Justice character, the attacks are cooler looking anyways, the only thing SS has over it is Foot Stomp's large area. 

 

Not every set needs to be homogenized.  As for an easier port to stalkers and scrappers, do they really even need another set at the expense of changing the iconic Rage?  It's good they are taking a pause on SS, the back and forth in that feedback seems to warrant the pause.

Edited 16 hours ago by Championess

[Rudra]

45 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

 

I wasn't trying to say that you couldn't make a power like Rage (the system, after all, is very flexible), but rather that nothing in the book suggests that characters with Super Strength should have Rage and that Rage is a thing that only Super Strength characters should have.

 

In Champions it would make perfect sense to give a blaster the Aid power with similar modifiers.

Because the mechanics of the Hero System game system, including Champions, is built around specifically not telling players what they should make and how. You are mixing two different parts of the game. The core rules of the game system is what mechanic is used to determine success or failure, how different parts of the game interact with each other, and how players interact with the game system. Rage is not a game mechanic, it is a character concept, something the player comes up with himself/herself/themselves using the available building block powers and modifiers to create. Players would probably be less upset with Rage if it had been named Surge or something else that didn't pigeonhole the power into a specific concept but rather let the player define what that surge was. Be it rage, ki use, pushing past personal limits, or whatever.

 

Edit: And side-note, Rage is in Champions. The base version is the ability to Push in the game, increasing the pushed power's point total by 10 at the the cost of an extra 10 END. There is an alternative to the core pushing mechanic where the character can push their power at even higher END costs. Those increased END costs can exceed the character's END pool, forcing the character to have to stop and rest, even if the fight is still ongoing. And then on Page 61 of The Ultimate Brick, there is Rage Augmented Strength. Difference is that version causes the character to go berserk and attack everyone including allies versus having a crash at the end. So yes, the core rules of Champions does have Rage, except it is called Pushing and everyone can use it for everything.

 

Edit again: Heh, that's a weird thought. What if Rage worked more like pushing in Champions? That would mean it became a toggle with a ridiculously high END cost that could not be reduced. Enabling players to decide when and when not to push to accomplish their goals, and the crash would be their character pushing too much for too long. ... Please bear in mind that I am not advocating for this to happen. Just a thought experiment that popped in my head with the Champions discussion.

 

Edited 15 hours ago by Rudra

[Captain Citadel]

3 hours ago, Championess said:

Rage is THE backbone of the whole of Super Strength and to a lesser extent Foot Stomp.  You should know what you're getting into when you make a SS character.  If I wanted a similar physical set that I didn't want to build around Rage I'd just make a Street Justice character, the attacks are cooler looking anyways, the only thing SS has over it is Foot Stomp's large area. 

 

Not every set needs to be homogenized.  As for an easier port to stalkers and scrappers, do they really even need another set at the expense of changing the iconic Rage?  It's good they are taking a pause on SS, the back and forth in that feedback seems to warrant the pause.

What other powerset in the game is built entirely around a single damage buff like this? It's bad design. The entire powerset has its damage nerfed into the ground if you don't use it, and the only way to make effective use of it is to have permanent uptime on it.

The set is called Super Strength, not Uncontrollable Anger. A lot of people don't like Street Justice because of the combo system, most sets in the game don't have such a rigid rotation and you can just smash things with whatever power you have off CD. I think a lot of people just want Super Strength to work without relying on such a heavily weighted damage buff, especially because it has a crash that is not fun to deal with. It further incentivizes proc-loading builds so you can still deal some damage during that ten-second lockout. A lot of people don't like feeling forced to build that way either.

Unleashed Might was a great middle-ground solution. But now we have nothing.

[Major_Decoy]

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

Edit: And side-note, Rage is in Champions. The base version is the ability to Push in the game, increasing the pushed power's point total by 10 at the the cost of an extra 10 END. There is an alternative to the core pushing mechanic where the character can push their power at even higher END costs. Those increased END costs can exceed the character's END pool, forcing the character to have to stop and rest, even if the fight is still ongoing. And then on Page 61 of The Ultimate Brick, there is Rage Augmented Strength. Difference is that version causes the character to go berserk and attack everyone including allies versus having a crash at the end. So yes, the core rules of Champions does have Rage, except it is called Pushing and everyone can use it for everything.

 

City of Heroes' Rage is significantly closer to Dungeons & Dragon's Rage than it is to Champion's Push, which was my point.

 

And I believe that if there is to be a power like Push in the game, it would make more sense for it to be a inherent power available to everyone and not limited to Super Strength.