Addressing the Tanker Brute Connundrum.

[Galaxy Brain]

Also, auto hit dev hax or....?

[Bionic_Flea]

16 targets hit.

[Myrmidon]

Is that the Tanker AoEs that we once played with on test?

 

 

 

 

 

YES PLEASE!!!

[tellania]

On 9/6/2019 at 6:23 PM, Sura said:

How would DEF and RES affect the damage coming to the Tanker?  Like normal?  It seems like if DEF and RES still apply this could be very powerful.

 

I really like how this sounds, but I'm not sure how many AoE powers NPC's use.  I especially like how multiple Tankers would actually stack.  

Yes.   I visualize a non tank (hero) behind superman, letting him block most/all the damage.     AOE's arent that common, but they seem to be pretty common (and VERY hard hitting) on AV's.   In this case, having more than a single tanker would be ideal.     Long ago, a DEV (who died in-game ...) mentioned defense is like bullets bouncing off for no damage, or avoiding (e.g. superman invulnerability or batman agility).

 

[Profit]

@Myrmidonthis isn't those. If you mean where every tank attack did aoe splash dmg, this isn't it. This is simply an increase in aoe radius for aoe attacks.

 

*waits for the blasters to complain tanker aoes are larger*

[William Valence]

The radius looks normal for footstomp. Looks like the target cap was upped.

[Galaxy Brain]

6 minutes ago, Profit said:

@Myrmidonthis isn't those. If you mean where every tank attack did aoe splash dmg, this isn't it. This is simply an increase in aoe radius for aoe attacks.

 

*waits for the blasters to complain tanker aoes are larger*

I dont think Blasters would complain 😛

[Profit]

@Galaxy Brainwhy do you think the GDN happened? PVP blasters complained about not being able to hit SR scrappers in PVP zones.

 

why do you think tank toggles are susceptible to toggle dropping in PVP zones? PVP blasters complained about not being able to damage tanks through reisistances.

 

why do you think the clusterf that was the i13 PVP changes happened? 

 

Anything you do/suggest/ or actually change in this game is met with another AT complaining about the change. I worked very hard on the logic of my proposed changes so they wouldn't drastically effect the other ATs and still be able to raise tanker profiles at higher levels.

 

i see now that was a mistake, as many lauded my proposed changes as ineffectual.

 

i do think blasters will complain about this. I also think this is going to be to overpowering but I am willing to test it if time permits.

[Galaxy Brain]

I mean sure, but that is apples and oranges. Those changes were directly impacting blasters (in PvP), where here it does not impede on their ability to hit tons of targets at once for 3028472x Tanker damage.

 

You dont see blasters complaining about AoE control powers that hit a wide area for damage as well.

[Vanden]

7 minutes ago, Profit said:

why do you think the GDN happened? PVP blasters complained about not being able to hit SR scrappers in PVP zones.

I’m assuming you mean the Arena, since the GDN predates PvP zones.

 

But even then, this is very wrong. The GDN happened as a necessary step to enable the devs to design challenging content and give player characters more room to grow to meet these challenges, not because some players complained it was hard to kill other players in PvP.

[Profit]

Except I'm not wrong. During that time I was blessed with a job that afforded me enough down time to surf the forums nearly 8 hours a day. I saw the Complaints for months, often before they would get removed by mods. You're choosing to believe what the 'devs' told you and that's fine. But you don't get to call me wrong because you didn't see what I saw.

[Vanden]

I saw the same things you saw, I was there too. I’m not saying you’re wrong because I didn’t see the same things you did. I’m saying you’re wrong because you’re wrong.

[MunkiLord]

I don't see why Blasters would care about this. This will have little to no impact on Blasters. Maybe I'll get a little less aggro, but I don't see any other impact. 

Edited September 10, 2019 by MunkiLord

[Galaxy Brain]

Unfortunately we just have to take your word. But that still is an apples to oranges comparison. This whole thread is due to an Apple to Apple comparison between Brutes and Tankers as they directly compete for the same niche at times. In your PvP example, Blasters and other ATs are directly competing against each other in the most direct way possible. Tankers and Blasters don't compete for AoE damage.

 

 

 

Just now, MunkiLord said:

I don't see why Blasters would care about this. This will have little to no impact on Blasters. Maybe I'll get a little less aggro, but I don't see any other impact. 

Also this, if anything this would help blasters in a team 😛

Edited September 10, 2019 by Galaxy Brain

[Lazarillo]

14 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Also this, if anything this would help blasters in a team 😛

It would wound their pride.  That's even worse than the wounds to their body that they currently get.

[MunkiLord]

16 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

It would wound their pride.  That's even worse than the wounds to their body that they currently get.

It would! I would be an insult that a Tank is trying to do MY damage. So that means I would have to push harder and shoot more things faster to heal my wounded ego. Delicious chaos.

[Sura]

I'd be OK with this.  I'd rather see things like Chilling Embrace and Energy Absorption from my primary hit more targets though.  

 

I admit I do love doing big dramatic knockdown attacks, so a target increase for attacks would be fun that way.  If I could just Lightning Rod over and over I would.  🙂

[Galaxy Brain]

24 minutes ago, Sura said:

I'd be OK with this.  I'd rather see things like Chilling Embrace and Energy Absorption from my primary hit more targets though.  

 

I admit I do love doing big dramatic knockdown attacks, so a target increase for attacks would be fun that way.  If I could just Lightning Rod over and over I would.  🙂

I would imagine those get changed as well....? 🤔

[Sura]

Just now, Galaxy Brain said:

I would imagine those get changed as well....? 🤔

We'll find out I guess.  I was assuming they wouldn't because I was thinking the purpose was to increase Tanker damage in a subtle way by increasing target max of the secondary attacks.  But it's just as likely that you're right and all AoE target maxes would be increased.  

 

I don't think either one will make a massive difference, or even a significant difference, but I also think that's OK.

 

[Galaxy Brain]

The main thing that keeps coming back is that Tanks should feel different to play than Brutes, which with mechanical changes will also change their performance vs them at high lvl.

[EyeLuvBooks]

I'm not going to read through all 24 pages of this thread. I DO believe that Brutes have eclipsed Tanks with regards to viability. Checking any forum that discusses builds and everyone who asks 'Tank or Brute' will get tons of 'Brutes because they're better at the top-end' replies.

 

IMHO part of the problem is that the Bruising mechanic is largely unknown and unheard of. Nobody seems to read up on any of the Inherent abilities unless they have a visible bar attached to them or a fancy indicator (looking at Brutes and Scrappers/Doms respectively here). Part of the problem is that Brute damage at the top end is SO much greater than a Tank's that Bruising doesn't seem to matter. If you doubt me, think back to the last time you heard anyone say 'Boy, that guy was tough! I'm so glad we had the Resist Debuff from that Tank!' I'd guess never, right?

 

I DO think that Tanks should hold aggro better, full stop, end of discussion. My suggestion for that would be to increase the Taunt cap for Tanks somehow (I'm not a programmer...we have people for that) as well as Taunt duration. Right about the time a Brute should be losing aggro on the fringes of the spawn, the Tank should be sitting pretty. I would go so far as to increase the cap on the Tank version of the Taunt power from 5 to 6 and increase the radius a bit to encourage Tanks to take it and not rely on their AoEs.

 

I would be fine with the damage cap on Tanks being raised to a point where they could equal Scrappers but only with extreme buffing from the team. If you're willing to put in THAT much effort then there should be a payoff. If Scrappers are at a 5.6 and you want to make Tanks 4.8 or whatever that's fine too.

 

I also agree that Tanks need more Debuff Resistance. If Brutes are going to be the 'yay we have melee damage!' then Tanks should be the 'Yay that AV that's been debuffing us to death can't do that to HIM!'. Tanks are SUPPOSED to take damage so let them DO that.

 

I don't want Tanks, Scrappers and Brutes to become three flavors of the same thing. As it is now, precision players can play Scrappers and hope for the Crit while high-speed players can play Brutes and keep the Fury bar high. Sadly, this leaves Tanks out in the cold.

[Profit]

@EyeLuvBooks

 

 

if you you haven't seen it yet.