Which Sets Benefit Most from the i25 Proc Rules

[oedipus_tex]

The i25 proc rules are game changers for the Defender AT. Due to Defenders having excellent buff stats and the fact that most damage procs don't adjust their Damage to the Defender's normally lower Damage modifier, they are poised to be proc-generating lawn mowers.

 

The question is, which powers have benefitted most from these changes? I've seen some discussion of Dual Pistols. Are there other sets that are well positioned to benefit? Which powers, and how specifically?

 

I'm tempted to guess, for example, that Ray Gun and Radiation Blast are both in a good place. But I'm not sure how powers should be slotted or how best to turn them into monsters. Any ideas?

 

 

 

[Bopper]

Anything with holds, def debuffs, knockback, and slows. So /DP, /Ice, Storm/ all come to mind. My Time/DP is a buzzsaw that maximizes procs while maintaining perma hasten, perma chronoshift, softcap all defense, capped S/L resistance, over 130 DPS on ST (not factoring resistance debuffs), and plenty of AoE damage. Lots you can do with procs on defenders.

Edited July 28, 2019 by Bopper

[Sir Myshkin]

I got hellbent, slash am hellbent, on trying to turn a Defender into what I'm classifying as a "Proc Monster." However I have so-far been somewhat disappointed with my research.

 

Don't get me wrong, the idea 100% works, just that it doesn't end up bringing a Defender into a realistic playing field with the "big boys." I put together a Time/Rad/Power with 65.8% +Dam between bonuses and Assault. BU Proc in Aim (up every 25/s), Power Build Up (technically for Farsight boosting, but still in the cycle). 191.25% Global Recharge. It still took me 10 minutes to take down a Pylon. With all T4 Incarnates (and activating Hybrid, but no Lore pet, which is kind of obvious). And this was on Test, so even included the "altered" Snipe which I included in the attack chain.

 

And it worked. I proc'd like a madman on all my attacks, everything was throwing out damage that just shouldn't exist on a Defender, but at that point I was just bringing myself up to a mediocre Scrapper's level of performance.

[Bopper]

It's unrealistic to believe it can bring you up to the big boy level. What's nice is all the benefits that come with being a defender still exists while you are an actual asset to team DPS. Now, I don't know what is considered big boy DPS, anyone know?

[Hjarki]

I'd combine the Sniper changes, the PPM changes and the KB changes all into one batch. What optimizes theses:

• Having a sniper attack, especially a quick-casting one. Sniper Attacks are a slotting bonanza since they can 3-slot for +2.5% ranged defense on top of getting an additional proc. Assault Rifle has the best option here.
• Having a short cooldown, non-Rain ultimate. A standard 25-yard radius ultimate has a 3.8125 AF. With 3.5 PPM attacks, this means you can drop the enhanced recharge down to 58.8 before you start decreasing the proc chance. However, the shorter the base cooldown the more impact your global recharge will have (and the less cooldown you need to slot). With +275% (perma-Hasten) global recharge, your Rain of Arrows drops to 16 sec cooldown with a 90% proc chance - meaning 56% uptime on Annihilation. In contrast, even if you managed to get the +147% enhanced recharge to drop Inferno to the 90% proc limit, that additional +275% global recharge would only drop you to 23 secs (if it wasn't limited by the recharge cap). Again, Assault Rifle is the king here with a 2.52 AF attack permitting enhancing it down to 38.9 sec. With +275% global recharge on top of that 54%, you end up at 14 secs or 64% uptime on Annihilation procs. However, it's a cone, which brings problems of its own.
• Having a hold. Holds can slot a whopping 4 different procs before you even get to slotting ranged damage procs.
• Slows/ToHit Debuffs. Slows get Impeded Swiftness and ToHit Debuffs get Clouded Senses.
• Defense Debuffs. These receive Touch of Lady Gray and Achilles' Heel. However, you generally want Achilles' Heel on slow recharge attacks (which you use at nearly their recharge rate) rather than high recharge attacks.
• Knockback. AE knockdown attacks can slot Force Feedback for a dramatic improvement in +recharge. Any knockback attack can slot Explosive Strike. However, attacks that actually knockback can be perceived as having a hidden 'tax' on them due to the need to slot the otherwise unimpressive Sudden Acceleration. As a result, there's a bit of a "first hit's free" situation where having a single knockback attack isn't a probably (because Overwhelming Force also increases damage) but having a second or subsequent one is. Water is probably the best option here with knockdown on both its standard target AE and its ultimate. Dual Pistols is a solid option as well.
• Longer recharge attacks. Flares, even aside from its inability to slot procs, is a horrible first tier power in the age-of-procs due to its rapid recharge. Neutrino Bolt and Aqua Bolt aren't great either.
• Cones. These are both good and bad. The bad is that cones have an implicit 'tax' on them in the form of the need for range increases (most of the time). The good is that those range increases expand the effective radius without costing you AF. The bad is that Cones are notoriously buggy. However, it's worth noting that two cones - Dual Pistols and Beam - are essentially single target attacks that also act as -resist debuffs.
• PBAoE. All PBAoE have a plethora of slotting options as well as another -resist debuff. Unfortunately, most PBAoE on Blast sets involve a lot of unnecessary risk for no significant gain as opposed to their ranged AE counterparts.

In terms of sets:

• Archery (B). Has a great ultimate, a knockback AE and a sniper shot. Unfortunately, it also has no secondary effects on its attacks and the mandatory first tier attack is horrendous. For a Corruptor, you can probably cobble together a chain from Aimed Shot, Explosive Arrow and Ranged Shot - but you're still not going to be getting top notch performance. I think taking either Char or Dominate from epic pools to round out the chain would be almost mandatory.
• Assault Rifle (B). On paper, this is fantastic. It's got the best Snipe, one of the best first tier attacks, a KB AE and one of the better ultimates. Unfortunately, it has too much knockback (the problem I alluded to above) and too many cones (again, above).
• Beam Rifle (B). The Snipe is about average and the attacks can generally be slotted well (but not exceptionally so). Piercing Beam offers nice slotting opportunities. However, it's entire chain is clunky due to the Disintegrate mechanic and it lacks effective AE.
• Dark (B). Another "I might take it as a Corruptor" choice. Dark Blast is nothing special, but Gloom is quite nice. Torrent is about as good as a Cone gets. I think a Corruptor with the Char/Dominate setup could do good things with Dark.
• Dual Pistols (B). A slotting bonanza due to the multiple ammo mechanic. However, it doesn't have a Snipe attack, it's Hold isn't worthwhile as a damage attack and it's ultimate is weak.
• Electrical (C). Unfortunately, endurance modification does not provide procs. So despite the fact that Electrical has a snipe and a hold, it actually doesn't fare all that well.
• Energy (C). This is the 'knockback tax' set. There's simply too much knockback that you need to eliminate for it to be efficiently slotted.
• Fire (B). As long as you're willing to mule Flares and never use it, I think Fire does reasonably well. The Sniper attack can be slotted twice and you can dual slot Blaze using Apoc unique. Then just use Dominate/Char from epics to round out your rotation. The Rain is effectively unslottable, but it has high enough basic dpa that it remains useful. The biggest problem would be cobbling together a rotation using 3 10+ base recharge attacks. However, Inferno is one of the weaker ultimates.
• Ice (A). Both Freezing Ray and Bitter Ice Blast are incredibly slottable while Ice Bolt is a perfectly adequate option as well. Ice Storm has the same issue all Rains do, but Blizzard is a weak ultimate for Defenders. I think playing this as a Corruptor makes far more sense to optimize the Rains. About all its missing is knockback.
• Psychic (B). The basic attacks are weak and probably only suitable as mules. So you're looking at another Char/Dominate from Epic pools situation combined with the snipe and knockback attack. it also suffers from the 'too much knockback' phenomenon due to its AE. Psychic Wail is nothing particularly special.
• Radiation (C). While its attacks are nicely slottable, they're such terrible attacks that you can't do much with them. The only worthwhile single target attack it has is the Snipe, so you can't form a strong rotation.
• Sonic (C). I think Sonic has actually fallen off the board here. It's attacks are effectively unslottable and its major selling point - resistance debuffs - is something that Achilles/Annihilation does almost as well on sets that deliver damage far more effectively. Sets like Dual Pistols or Beam Rifle can debuff resistance about as well as Sonic can without requiring a full rotation and while delivering serious single target damage.
• Water (A). Defense debuffs, slows and knockbacks make for a highly slottable set. It has two knockdown AEs for Force Feedback. It also has Water Jet, probably the most proc-friendly attack in the game since the proc chance is based on a relatively high recharge but the Tidal Power mechanic allows you to use it far more often than that. That being said, it has a relatively weak basic attack and requires augmenting the attack chain via epic pools as above.

However, I will make one final point. I mentioned a number of "take this as a Corruptor" sets. Normally this is due to the arrangement of powers in the set. In the case of Ice Blast, it's due to the Rains. But almost any Corruptor build suffers from the ppm changes. When 40% of your damage comes from sources that are the same between Defender and Corruptor, the fact that you get 15% more damage and Scourge on the remaining 60% will often mean that you'll get out-damaged by your Defender variant when all is said and done.

 

The issue of the ATOs also rears its head. Defenders/Corruptors have some of the best ATOs around. Unfortunately, they're also ATOs wildly unsuitable for a proc-heavy build. That means you need to find a place to dump them where they won't do any damage while you're reaping the benefits of their set bonuses. Moreover, most strong builds split the ATO for double recharge, so you need to find three places to dump them. Rains are a good place, as are most ultimates (where you want the recharge anyway). For most sets, you'll probably just end up purely muling attacks.

 

I think it's also important to address how support sets have changed.

• Cold Domination (B). As noted elsewhere, you can slot the hell out of Infrigidate and turn it into a somewhat respectable attack. However, it's not really a great attack so the fact that the underlying effect is so useless argues against this strategy. Heat Loss can also be slotted, but its atrociously long recharge means it provides minimal benefit.
• Dark Miasma (B). There are a few slotting opportunities here, but nothing that would really make a bad power into a good one.
• Empathy (C). No offensive powers.
• Force Field (C). It has a fair bit of knockback, but you're not going to get appreciable damage (or even recharge) from it.
• Kinetics (B). Repel has gotten more popular due to KB->KD and proc changes, but it's not actually all that strong an engine for procs. Otherwise, the set remains nearly unslottable.
• Nature (A). Entangling Aura is the big winner here for its ability to slot an arsenal of Hold procs. While you'll never kill anyone quickly with this, a build like Fire Control/Nature that already has AE damage auras can stack them on top.
• Pain (B). Anguishing Cry is the only slottable power and its not a particularly great one.
• Poison (B). Venomous Gas isn't nearly as slottable as Entangling Aura but it's a far more useful underlying effect. You can also add some procs to your debuffs to make them more useful.
• Radiation (A). Another situation like Nature where you've got an AE Hold Aura. You can also slot some of your other debuffs for a little bit of added damage on already strong powers.
• Sonic (C). Most of the powers are unslottable and those that are only gain marginal benefits.
• Storm Summoning (A). There's a reason there's an entire thread on abusing Storm Summoning that stays near the top of these boards - its ability to abuse Force Feedback has made it a tremendous power set on Homecoming.
• Thermal (B). The procs it can slot are in powers with too long of a recharge and there are too few procs you can slot. That being said, like all -def powers, it can easily accommodate Achilles' Heel to gain an additional -20% almost guaranteed.
• Time (A). Distortion FIeld is a monster, able to slot 4 procs without needing any actual enhancements. Slowed Response is also a strong contender.
• Traps (?). I'm not entirely sure here. Pseudo-pets and procs have a curious interaction. My suspicion is that procs in most of its effects would either be meaningless or not terribly potent, but I don't know.
• Trick Arrow (?). I haven't tried this either, but I don't see much here. While there are procs that can be slotted, they're primarily in pseudo-pets that desperately need recharge reduction enhancements.

 

 

Edited July 28, 2019 by Hjarki

[Hjarki]

57 minutes ago, Bopper said:

It's unrealistic to believe it can bring you up to the big boy level. What's nice is all the benefits that come with being a defender still exists while you are an actual asset to team DPS. Now, I don't know what is considered big boy DPS, anyone know?

I ran some informal tests on my Storm/Water Defender.

 

Clearing an 8/x4 Comic Con space fire farm was ~6 minutes. A top-end Spines/Fire Brute can do it in 4, I believe. However, the issue was less a lack of dps than a lack of taunt.

 

Killing a Rikti Pylon (solo, no tank, no Hybrid/Lore) took ~2:30 (383 dps from the Scrapper thread). I believe top-end Stalkers/Scrappers break the 2 minute mark.

 

That being said:

• I'm built more for defense than offense. I could probably optimize the damage more if I so chose.
• Much of that damage is due to Storm Summoning, not my attack chain.

[Bopper]

3 hours ago, Hjarki said:

Defense Debuffs. These receive Touch of Lady Gray and Achilles' Heel. However, you generally want Achilles' Heel on slow recharge attacks (which you use at nearly their recharge rate) rather than high recharge attacks.

Excellent breakdown. I'd also like to add Shield Breaker as an Accurate Defense Debuff proc.

[Obitus]

Great thread.

 

Somewhat ironically, one of the best candidates I've found lately for exploiting single-target proc damage is an /Atomic Blaster, because Atomic gives you a relatively fast-animating ranged hold on a 16s default recharge timer, which can take DEF debuff and Accurate DEF debuff sets - and you can also take Char from an Epic pool too.  One hold can be enhanced by ~450 points of average damage through procs alone, and the other can be given +323 avg damage through procs, along with a -20% resistance debuff.  Add in the base damage on the powers, and we're talking a little over 900 average ranged damage added to your attack chain, in return for ~3s of animation time, every 5-6 seconds, and it doesn't require any Primary powers.  Even on a Blaster, that's obscene.

 

The PPM system basically gives everyone with access to Epic Char/Dominate their own version of Blaze.  The heated debate over the state of fast snipes looks almost quaint in light of this information.

 

The PPM system seems a little less generally exploitable than I originally thought, though.  It's deceptively well designed.  For one thing, there is a sort of diminished return once you've used up all of the available purple procs.  Then there's the obvious point that cramming your attacks with procs also limits your ability to take advantage of set bonuses.  And you may need buttloads of global recharge to achieve a smooth attack chain while also taking full advantage of procs, which further limits your (notably defensive) IO-set options.

 

So power sets that have high amounts of native mitigation or +recharge are the obvious winners - Time Corruptors/Defenders/Controllers being the poster child, because Time gives you loads of both.  But you still need a good attack set - one that has both decent/fast-casting attacks and proc slotting options - to pair with your buff/debuff; I found the following line in Hjarki's excellent breakdown especially poignant:

 

13 hours ago, Hjarki said:

Radiation (C). While its attacks are nicely slottable, they're such terrible attacks that you can't do much with them.

 

Edited July 29, 2019 by Obitus

[Maxzero]

 

The basic limitation of any power that uses procs is that it is designed to proc only a certain amount of times a minute. So how do you generate more procs in the same amount of time?

 

For me the key idea to keep in mind to maximise procs (and this applies to all classes) is the idea of multiple layers of time.

 

There are two ways to layer time:

 

1) Either concurrent applications

 

2) Concurrent cooldowns

 

For 1) the poster child would be MMs. With the right pets and slotting that can effectively have 7 different channels (6 pets + player) for applying chances to proc. So for every 1 minute of 'real' time the MM has had 7 minutes of 'proccing' time.

 

For 2) It's usually support/epic power sets that either contain pets, pseudo pets or mid range cooldown (20-30 second) powers that can be cycled so that multiple powers are recharge at the same time effectively increasing how much time you have every minute. For example if you have a lot of global recharge and have 3x 60 second cooldown powers full of procs that you cycle every 20 seconds then every minute of 'real' time you have effectively had 10 minutes of 'proc' time (1 minute of self casting plus 3x 60 secs). Storm and Time are obvious candidates.

 

While you self casting is an important source of procs you are limited by the fact that there is only so much casting you personally can do. If you want more procs you will need additional layers.

 

[Hjarki]

1 hour ago, Maxzero said:

 

The basic limitation of any power that uses procs is that it is designed to proc only a certain amount of times a minute. So how do you generate more procs in the same amount of time?

 

For me the key idea to keep in mind to maximise procs (and this applies to all classes) is the idea of multiple layers of time.

 

There are two ways to layer time:

 

1) Either concurrent applications

 

2) Concurrent cooldowns

 

For 1) the poster child would be MMs. With the right pets and slotting that can effectively have 7 different channels (6 pets + player) for applying chances to proc. So for every 1 minute of 'real' time the MM has had 7 minutes of 'proccing' time.

 

For 2) It's usually support/epic power sets that either contain pets, pseudo pets or mid range cooldown (20-30 second) powers that can be cycled so that multiple powers are recharge at the same time effectively increasing how much time you have every minute. For example if you have a lot of global recharge and have 3x 60 second cooldown powers full of procs that you cycle every 20 seconds then every minute of 'real' time you have effectively had 10 minutes of 'proc' time (1 minute of self casting plus 3x 60 secs). Storm and Time are obvious candidates.

 

While you self casting is an important source of procs you are limited by the fact that there is only so much casting you personally can do. If you want more procs you will need additional layers.

 

Pets have a few issues:

• We don't know much about their abilities. The data on pets has always been a bit sparse so its tough to optimize them.
• Pets only receive procs for the right kind of abilities. Consider Dark Servant (from Dark Miasma/Affinity). You could slot all kinds of procs in it. However, most of those procs only apply to certain specific abilities which may or may not be used at a decent rate. Over on the MM boards, there's a thread about procs and there's a bit of angst about how inapplicable most procs are due to the fact that only one ability out of the set uses them.
• Pets often have 'bad' abilities. Consider Tornado and Lightning Storm. In most cases, these are single target attacks. However, they're actually AE attacks - just AE attacks that rarely ever hit more than one target but still get to suffer from the AF divider.
• You have to consider the added dps per slot. Piling on additional procs comes at a significant cost - so significant that it's normally worth giving up Corruptor dps bonuses on the main attack because Defenders are more 'slot efficient' in every non-dps attribute. If you're at perma-Hasten, you're getting 3.75 times the dps benefit per slot on your main attacks. On a pet, you're only gaining 1x the dps bonus in most cases. Only when a pet has multiple attacks and those multiple attacks trigger the same proc does it start to pay off. My suspicion is that the Dark Control can likely get a decent advantage with Cloud Senses and/or Glimpse of the Abyss procs, but I'm not entirely sure. There's a discussion on the Mastermind boards about their pets and procs, but the ones that pay off are few and far between.

On an unrelated note, it's worth amplifying that the multiplier for the procs isn't actually that 3.75-at-perma-Hasten figure I cited above but rather related to your rotation. For example, on my Storm/Water build, most of my procs 'under-perform' because I spend so much time doing other things - I don't actually activate the abilities quickly enough to optimize their procs.

 

This also touches on the issue of activation times and getting the recharge just right.

 

For example, I noted Ice Blast as one of the best options for procs. It has a 1-2-1-3 style rotation that requires 1.188*2 + 1.188 + 1.32 = 4.884 secs to run. However, this means that you need +237% recharge for Bitter Ice Blast/Ice Bolt but only +171% for Freezing Ray. Another way of putting this is that you've effectively 'capped' the bonus you receive for Freezing Ray at +171% due to your rotation. If you were to go with Ice Blast/Freezing Ray/Bitter Ice Blast, you now need +295% for BiB, +216% for Freezing Ray and +219% for Ice Blast.

 

So let's say we've got a purple and two other procs in each of those attacks alongside +150% damage.

 

Our first rotation:

Ice Bolt (x2): 36.15 * 2.5 + (4 + 1) * 3.5 / 60 * 71.75 * 2 + (4 + 1) * 4.5 / 60 * 107.1 = 172 * 2 = 344

FR: 72.29 * 2.5 + (10 + 1) * 3.5 / 60 * 71.75 * 2 + (10 + 1) * 4.5 / 60 * 107.1 = 361

BiB: 82.41 * 2.5 + (12 + 1.07) * 3.5 / 60 * 71.75 * 2 + (12 + 1.07) * 4.5 / 60 * 107.1 = 420

Total = (344 + 361 + 420) / (1.188 * 3 + 1.32) = 230

 

Our second rotation:

Ice Blast: 59.28 * 2.5 + (8 + 1.67) * 3.5 / 60 * 71.75 * 2 + (8 + 1.67) * 4.5 / 60 * 107.1 = 307

FR: (from above) 361

BiB: (from above) 420

Total = (307 + 361 + 420) / (1.188 + 1.32 + 1.848) = 250

 

The Water rotation I use is WJ -> AB -> Char -> AB -> WJ -> WJ. Using Dominate instead of Char (since I don't have exact figures for Char's damage handy right now):

Aqua Bolt (x2): 30.36 * 2.5 + (4 + 1) * 3.5 / 60 * 71.75 * 2 + (4 + 1) * 4.5 / 60 * 107.1 = 158 * 2 = 316

Dominate: 36.15 * 2.5 + (16 + 1.1) * 3.5 / 60 * 71.75 * 2 + (16 + 1.1) * 4.5 / 60 * 107.1 = 371

Water Jet (x3): 87.2 * 2.5 + (10 + 1.43) * 3.5 / 60 * 71.75 * 2 + (10 + 1.43) * 4.5 / 60 * 107.1 = 405 * 3 = 1215

Total = (316 + 371 + 1215) / (1.188 * 2 + 1.32 + 1.584 * 2 + 1.188) = 236

 

Some notes:

• Defenders don't actually have a third purple proc (Corruptors do). The non-ATO purple damage procs are Ranged, Hold, Melee and PBAoE.
• The Water Blast rotation isn't sustainable. It only works if you plan on interrupting the chain frequently to do something else. However, once you start down that road, it becomes less of a rotation and more of a 'priority list' - you end up using your high value attacks far more often than a strict rotation would indicate.
• The optimal slotting for those attacks likely involves packing all the procs you can in the attack that has the highest 'recharge cap' (discussed above) given the rotation.
• These are very simple rotations. Both Ice and Water are pretty easy to figure out from the basic numbers - all you really need to do is check if your rotation is feasible given the necessary recharge. However, the rotations for most sets aren't so simple. Ice is unique in that it carries the Hold in the main set. For most other sets, this is not the case and they have to use Dominate/Char from epics. That 16 sec recharge is great for procs, but it can kill your rotation unless you're playing a support set that takes time away from your main dps rotation.

Two slightly more complex rotations:

Burst (x2): 39.04 * 2.5 + (4 + 1) * 3.5 / 60 * 71.75 * 2 + (4 + 1) * 4.5 / 60 * 107.1 = 180 * 2 = 360

Buckshot: 32.89 * 2.5 + (8 + 0.9) * 3.5 / 60 * 71.75 * 3 / 1.87 = 142

Dominate: (from above) 371

Sniper Rifle: 122.8 * 2.5 + (12 + 3.67) * 3.5 / 60 * 71.75 * 2 + (12 + 3.67) * 4.5 / 60 * 107.1 = 564

Total = (360 + 142 + 371 + 564) / (1.188 * 2 + 1.058 + 1.32 + 0.828) = 257

 

Single Shot (x2): 36.15 * 2.5 + (4 + 1) * 3.5 / 60 * 71.75 * 2 + (4 + 1) * 4.5 / 60 * 107.1 = 172 * 2 = 344

Disintegrate: 78.08 * 2.5 + (10 + 1.9) * 3.5 / 60 * 71.75 = 245

Dominate: (from above) 371

Penetrating Ray: 122.8 * 2.5 + (12 + 4.4) * 3.5 / 60 * 71.75 * 2 + (12 + 4.4) * 4.5 / 60 * 107.1 = 576

Total = (344 + 245 + 371 + 576) / (1.188 * 2 + 2.112 + 1.32 + 1.62) = 207

 

And, of course:

Burst: (from above) 180

Dominate (proxy for Char):

Greater Fire Sword: 91.08 * 2.5 + (12 + 2.33) * 3.5 / 60 * 71.75 * 2 + (12 + 2.33) * 4.5 / 60 * 107.1 = 463

Sniper Rifle: (from above) 564

Total = (180 + 371 + 463 + 564) / (1.188 + 1.32 + 2.508 + 0.828) = 270

 

[Maxzero]

 

The point is is that those procs in MMs pets don't take up any of YOUR casting time. As you pointed out self cast chains are often interuptted by other things. Pets do not have that issue. As a MM you can do an 'optimal' rotation while the pets contribute on their own. As for some procs work better with some powers then others is that any different from any other archetype? Pets are not that complicated you can see all their powers in Mids.

 

I see all your rotations but to me it just shows the limit of self cast when it comes to procs. Your personal casting is limited. If you truely want to abuse procs you need to get to layering.

 

I almost exclusively use priority because I suits my playstyle and Coh's playspeed better.

 

Edited July 29, 2019 by Maxzero

[Hjarki]

48 minutes ago, Maxzero said:

 

The point is is that those procs in MMs pets don't take up any of YOUR casting time. As you pointed out self cast chains are often interuptted by other things. Pets do not have that issue. As a MM you can do an 'optimal' rotation while the pets contribute on their own. As for some procs work better with some powers then others is that any different from any other archetype? Pets are not that complicated you can see all their powers in Mids.

 

I see all your rotations but to me it just shows the limit of self cast when it comes to procs. Your personal casting is limited. If you truely want to abuse procs you need to get to layering.

 

I almost exclusively use priority because I suits my playstyle and Coh's playspeed better.

 

In the broad sense, it's not all that different from putting the procs in a toggle. It's still additional damage, but it's less additional damage per slot than you might otherwise get using them in click powers. Remember, everything you slot in one place is something you're not slotting in another - you want to get the most value for each of your slots.

 

You should also consider:

• Pets are lower level than their master. This means that not only do they miss more often but their procs are smaller.
• Pets prioritize their attacks in the opposite order players do. A player will prioritize their highest dpa attack. A pet will prioritize their lowest recharge attack. So while interruptions for a player merely mean you miss out on the lowest dps portion of your attack chain, interruptions for a pet mean you miss out on the highest dps portion.

While there are certainly some exceptions, I'd argue that most pets should be placed below toggles in terms of placing procs.

[Obitus]

8 hours ago, Obitus said:

Somewhat ironically, one of the best candidates I've found lately for exploiting single-target proc damage is an /Atomic Blaster, because Atomic gives you a relatively fast-animating ranged hold on a 16s default recharge timer, which can take DEF debuff and Accurate DEF debuff sets - and you can also take Char from an Epic pool too.

Gotta correct myself here.  It turns out that I was looking at an older version of Mid's, which is inaccurate.  Atomic's hold can't take any DEF debuff sets; it can only slot damage, Hold, and ToHit/Accurate ToHit debuff sets.  Confirmed in-game.

 

So Atomic loses access to the Achilles' Heel -RES proc, but it still retains access to 5 non-purple damage procs (Neuronic Shutdown, Ghost Widow's Embrace, Gladiator's Net, Cloud Senses, Gladiator's Javelin).  A disappointment to be sure, though I still like the look of this set for high-end single-target shenanigans.

Edited July 29, 2019 by Obitus
clarification

[Maxzero]

49 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

In the broad sense, it's not all that different from putting the procs in a toggle. It's still additional damage, but it's less additional damage per slot than you might otherwise get using them in click powers. Remember, everything you slot in one place is something you're not slotting in another - you want to get the most value for each of your slots.

 

You should also consider:

• Pets are lower level than their master. This means that not only do they miss more often but their procs are smaller.
• Pets prioritize their attacks in the opposite order players do. A player will prioritize their highest dpa attack. A pet will prioritize their lowest recharge attack. So while interruptions for a player merely mean you miss out on the lowest dps portion of your attack chain, interruptions for a pet mean you miss out on the highest dps portion.

While there are certainly some exceptions, I'd argue that most pets should be placed below toggles in terms of placing procs.

But each power only has 6 slots. Yes slots are limited but you can only gain so much power out of self activated powers because you can only use one power at a time. For all their impefections pets allow you to get more done per second.

 

This is especially true now that more attacks are becoming available to MM. A MM with Heat Mastery has got access to some very good proc enablers which they have plenty of free time to use.

Edited July 29, 2019 by Maxzero

[Hjarki]

43 minutes ago, Maxzero said:

But each power only has 6 slots. Yes slots are limited but you can only gain so much power out of self activated powers because you can only use one power at a time. For all their impefections pets allow you to get more done per second.

 

This is especially true now that more attacks are becoming available to MM.

I think you're missing the point. Let's say you have a proc and you can slot it into one of several places. Normally, the last place you'd choose to slot it would be a pet - because the marginal gain in dps from the pet proc is less than the marginal gain in dps from either an offensive toggle or especially a click attack.

 

So while the pet itself might be a huge dps boost, slotting it for procs normally won't be a good return on value compared to slotting those procs elsewhere (or, more realistically, using the pet as to mule set bonuses while using other powers as pure attack powers).

 

For example, you've slotted your Tornado for Achilles' Heel. Now, that's fine. I don't slot mine for Achilles' Heel - instead I slot my Aqua Bolt. Given that Tornado has an 8 yard radius AE, it has an Area Factor of 1.9 - meaning that it will only proc Achilles' Heel against a single target 1.8 times per minute (proc rates for psuedo-pets are still a bit of a question mark). In contrast, even at a low priority, I'm probably tossing 10 Aqua Bolt per minute - each with a 30% chance to proc Achilles' Heel, given me an expected value of 3 times per minute. Obviously, this isn't a choice you could have made on Ill/Storm, but it should showcase what I'm talking about.

 

On the other hand, you don't slot Phantasm for Explosive Strike. Phantasm has two knockback powers. It can also summon duplicates of itself - and procs don't deal Illusionary damage. In theory, slotting Phantasm for Explosive Strike will very likely give you a return similar to what you'd receive in a click power.

 

But that's an exception. Consider Umbra Beast. It has a variety of attacks. But while it can deal -hit, immobilize, fear, etc. it doesn't have any two powers that share a debuff/control type. So any proc you slot into it will only proc at the expected PPM - less any reduction from the limitations of pet damage delivery.

 

With Mastermind pets, we'd really have to break down the various sets and see just what they entail. My suspicion is that good proc opportunities are reasonably uncommon.

 

A rundown of what I see with Controller pets:

#1: Plant. Double defense debuffs attacks open up 3 procs.

#2: Illusion. Explosive Strike in Phantasm hits two attacks and the pet can split into copies.

#3: Gravity. Both Controller ATOs proc from two attacks

#4: Everything else. Nothing affects more than a single attack. At best, you can slot Overwhelming Force to get some knockdown.

 

Edited July 29, 2019 by Hjarki

[Maxzero]

22 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

I think you're missing the point. Let's say you have a proc and you can slot it into one of several places. Normally, the last place you'd choose to slot it would be a pet - because the marginal gain in dps from the pet proc is less than the marginal gain in dps from either an offensive toggle or especially a click attack.

 

So while the pet itself might be a huge dps boost, slotting it for procs normally won't be a good return on value compared to slotting those procs elsewhere (or, more realistically, using the pet as to mule set bonuses while using other powers as pure attack powers).

 

For example, you've slotted your Tornado for Achilles' Heel. Now, that's fine. I don't slot mine for Achilles' Heel - instead I slot my Aqua Bolt. Given that Tornado has an 8 yard radius AE, it has an Area Factor of 1.9 - meaning that it will only proc Achilles' Heel against a single target 1.8 times per minute (proc rates for psuedo-pets are still a bit of a question mark). In contrast, even at a low priority, I'm probably tossing 10 Aqua Bolt per minute - each with a 30% chance to proc Achilles' Heel, given me an expected value of 3 times per minute. Obviously, this isn't a choice you could have made on Ill/Storm, but it should showcase what I'm talking about.

 

On the other hand, you don't slot Phantasm for Explosive Strike. Phantasm has two knockback powers. It can also summon duplicates of itself - and procs don't deal Illusionary damage. In theory, slotting Phantasm for Explosive Strike will very likely give you a return similar to what you'd receive in a click power.

 

But that's an exception. Consider Umbra Beast. It has a variety of attacks. But while it can deal -hit, immobilize, fear, etc. it doesn't have any two powers that share a debuff/control type. So any proc you slot into it will only proc at the expected PPM - less any reduction from the limitations of pet damage delivery.

 

With Mastermind pets, we'd really have to break down the various sets and see just what they entail. My suspicion is that good proc opportunities are reasonably uncommon.

There is a discussion on the proc rates of pseudo pets like Tornado on the Troller forum. It varies on a cast by case basis but Tornado might actually have quite a good proc rate. Something like 50% with 3 proc attempts per Tornado (Initial then 10 sec and 20 sec).

 

But lets take your numbers and work with them. I can keep 2 Tornado up at a time with my recharge. So that 1.8 is now 3.6 which also has a massive DPA itself and only needs 1.3 activation time every 15 leaving plenty of time to use other powers. You used 10 castings of Aqua Bolt for less damage and Heel procs then my 4 castings on Tornado. Who is the real winner here?

 

I used to like Explosive Strike in Phantom but his AI is bugged (has melee preferred preset) at the moment and he loves charging into melee and almost always dies in fairly short order. He is a bit of a liability at the moment honestly.

 

Thugs has easy slotting: Almost all of the Enforcers attack do -def and there are 2 of them. Brute loves KB and Chance for Build ain't bad on him either. 

Edited July 29, 2019 by Maxzero

[Frosticus]

I think that is the general understanding. You wouldn't slot a proc in a pet that barely uses it ie. chance for smashing slow proc in a demonling becuase only one demonling has any cold attacks. 

you would however slot that into demon prince because just about every attack he has will be available to proc it. So it basically becomes a universal damage proc for that pet. Very good returns. 

 

Similarly, but less obvious is something like controller singularity. It can take controller ATO's. Now I put the ato damage proc into him because he uses it on both his hold and lift. Whereas I can only use it on a single attack. At which point I have to ask if I'm going to spam gd as much as singularity spams gd+levitate? what about set bonuses on my hold? or other procs? becomes less clear. But it is clear that putting it into singularity helps him rip through enemies quite quickly. 

 

For me proc slotting a pet or psuedo pet is rarely at the cost of a slot somewhere else because I only slot them if they are well utilized by the pet (or by 

my attack). At which point it because a high priority slot placement. 

The balance point for me more often comes down to proc vs set bonuses. 

[marcussmythe]

20 hours ago, Hjarki said:

I ran some informal tests on my Storm/Water Defender.

 

Clearing an 8/x4 Comic Con space fire farm was ~6 minutes. A top-end Spines/Fire Brute can do it in 4, I believe. However, the issue was less a lack of dps than a lack of taunt.

 

Killing a Rikti Pylon (solo, no tank, no Hybrid/Lore) took ~2:30 (383 dps from the Scrapper thread). I believe top-end Stalkers/Scrappers break the 2 minute mark.

 

That being said:

• I'm built more for defense than offense. I could probably optimize the damage more if I so chose.
• Much of that damage is due to Storm Summoning, not my attack chain.

For benchmarks:

The top that Ive seen done without activating Assault or Lore Incarnate was 1:07, out of a TW/Bio Scrap.  That number could probably be taken just under a minute - that was a generalist build, with softcap defenses and well slotted self support powers - but it was an excellent build and a very good player (I cant crack 1:20 using the same build).

 

After that, very broadly, its Stalkers, then Scrappers/Pet People/Blasters in various flavors, then Brutes, Sentinels, and Corruptors.  All thats very broadly.  Your 383!/2:30 is a very impressive number, bettering almost any brute or sentinel, and competitive with serious Scrapper/Stalker/Pet People (MM, Crabbermind, Illusion Control).

 

About the only ATs that Ive not seen do ‘wow’ Pylon times are Non-Pet Crabs, Peacebringers, and Tanks.  Most of its powerset choice and willingness to spend and experiment.

[nihilii]

2 hours ago, Obitus said:

Gotta correct myself here.  It turns out that I was looking at an older version of Mid's, which is inaccurate.  Atomic's hold can't take any DEF debuff sets; it can only slot damage, Hold, and ToHit/Accurate ToHit sets.  Confirmed in-game.

 

So Atomic loses access to the Achilles' Heel -RES proc, but it still retains access to 5 non-purple damage procs (Neuronic Shutdown, Ghost Widow's Embrace, Gladiator's Net, Cloud Senses, Gladiator's Javelin).  A disappointment to be sure, though I still like the look of this set for high-end single-target shenanigans.

This is interesting. A fire/atomic/pyre blaster could push some pretty impressive range numbers, between Blaze, Blazing Bolt, Positron Cell and Char. Running Blaze -> BB -> Char -> Blaze -> PC -> Fireball, maybe? But then, endurance consumption is off the charts too. Oh well, who needs protection? Ageless and lucks all the way. And mezzes... We'll pretend mezzes don't exist. 🙂

Edited July 29, 2019 by nihilii

[Sir Myshkin]

Since it keeps coming up and no one's walked into the Barber Shop to get their haircut, I went ahead and pulled up my Robotics/Kin. Now Robotics only gets one damage proc to work with (Explosive Strike), but I think just having the one is going to be relevant to the point being brought up.

 

With full upgrades, Battle Drones has four attacks. Full Auto, Heavy Burst, Smash, Laser Burst. Heavy Burst is the only ability they carry that can trigger the proc (only KB component attack). I ran a four minute test with only first tier upgrade (to give Heavy Burst), and counted how many times it showed up; 25 in total with a success rate of generally 2/3's to 7/8's. With its base recharge at 8/s, and an animation time of 3.3, that power gets really close to max probability, so that's good. The bigger question comes down to "How often?"

 

Watching, logging the pattern, the Bots AI favors Full Auto, but that power has a 16/s cool-down, incidentally so does Smash, however Heavy Burst, when Full Auto was down, was the favored attack and if that ability was up, the Bot AI would cycle it in as often as possible. That became two activations per cycle, typically going into combat with Full Auto > Heavy Burst > Laser Burst > Smash > Heavy Burst > Laser Burst > Laser Burst > Heavy Burst > Full Auto > Laser Burst > Heavy Burst > Laser Burst > Smash > Heavy Burst > Laser Burst > Laser Burst (Repeat).

The AI isn't smart enough to understand optimal attack chains, obviously, so it was just looking for quick-checks on what was available as the "best option." Sometimes nothing was available and there's a delay in its processing. There are three of these guys after all trying to figure out the same math problem over and over again. But for 42/s I got about 5 hits of Heavy Burst out of 16 attacks, or about ~30% of my output, which at the high end of that was 88% bonus proc damage. Or +62 per Heavy Burst. Or +7.75 DPS averaged out per Battle Drone.

 

So take that value for what it's worth. MM pets are already a pain to effectively slot for between the +Def, +Res, and just packing enough +Acc/Dam to make them actually hit okay in the first place. If one slot might make the different of 23 DPS, I might consider that worth it if I don't need the trade off of the other status unique pieces.

[Obitus]

1 hour ago, nihilii said:

This is interesting. A fire/atomic/pyre blaster could push some pretty impressive range numbers, between Blaze, Blazing Bolt, Positron Cell and Char. Running Blaze -> BB -> Char -> Blaze -> PC -> Fireball, maybe? But then, endurance consumption is off the charts too. Oh well, who needs protection? Ageless and lucks all the way. And mezzes... We'll pretend mezzes don't exist. 🙂

We are of one mind 😀

 

I think it's just barely possible to get that chain sustainable without Ageless, though it will be difficult to do so and cap e.g. Ranged DEF.  FWIW, the soft-caped Ranged build I'm looking at right now has effective recovery at about 6.55 EPS (which is pretty ridiculous, Sustain + Stamina + Miracle/Numina + 2 Perf Shifter procs + Panacea).  The same build would burn ~6.1 EPS running the above-quoted attack chain.  Then of course there's the toggle cost, which is considerable - but I haven't exhausted all of the options yet either.  Will give it more thought when I have more time.

 

That said, if you swapped to Flares instead of Fireball (or the Atomic Immobilize, which has nearly identical DPA) for single-target scenarios, you'd only lose a handful of DPS, but you'd reduce end consumption by more than 1 EPS.  I think End would be manageable, overall, even if you couldn't quite get the Fireball chain sustainable.

Edited July 29, 2019 by Obitus

[Frosticus]

3 hours ago, Obitus said:

Gotta correct myself here.  It turns out that I was looking at an older version of Mid's, which is inaccurate.  Atomic's hold can't take any DEF debuff sets; it can only slot damage, Hold, and ToHit/Accurate ToHit debuff sets.  Confirmed in-game.

 

So Atomic loses access to the Achilles' Heel -RES proc, but it still retains access to 5 non-purple damage procs (Neuronic Shutdown, Ghost Widow's Embrace, Gladiator's Net, Cloud Senses, Gladiator's Javelin).  A disappointment to be sure, though I still like the look of this set for high-end single-target shenanigans.

yah i thought i had an undiscovered synergy when i rolled my fire/atom blaster awhile ago. I was giggling at the potential, but then got a bit sad as I dug into it. That said, positron cell does do -def, but as you say it doesn't take -def sets, but rather -tohit/accurate tohit debuff, which the power does not do. I suspect it is a bug, but at the same time ponder if I really want them looking closely at /atomic because the aoe hold is probably a little overtuned. 

 

negatron slam does take -def sets though (unless i'm losing marbles. despite what mids says ), but requires melee, but beta decay keeps  egging me to go there anyway. 

[Scrapulous]

3 hours ago, Hjarki said:

With Mastermind pets, we'd really have to break down the various sets and see just what they entail. My suspicion is that good proc opportunities are reasonably uncommon.

 

A lot of this work has been done. There is frequent discussion of this topic in the mastermind channel of the Homecoming Discord and a few good threads in the MM section of these boards.

 

My impression of the state of the art in MM proc placement is, roughly:

• The Overwhelming Force proc is something that most any MM primary has a use for and the chief question is in figuring out which power gives it the most impact.
• Certain primaries do very well with certain procs because all or nearly all of the pets' powers benefit from the proc. This is what I think Maxzero was getting at with his layering notion. An element I didn't see him mention but that is very significant here is that each of a pet's powers has its own PPM timer. Notable primaries are mercs, who very much like slotting Achilles Heel and Touch of Lady Grey, and Necromancy, where the Lich goes from Controller to Dominator with the addition of a single Cloud Senses proc which will happily fire off of all of her powers, including her three big dark cones.
• Some procs are worth slotting even when the number of attacks that can use them is low-ish, because of their high recharge timer and wide area of effect - these procs will fire a lot when the power that employs them is used and so a single slot can result in a huge amount of effective damage enhancement which also has the benefit of being exempt from Enhancement Diversification limits. Examples include knockback conversion in Assault Bot (most especially Overwhelming Force) or -res procs in Grave Knights, whose big, chunky Broadsword attacks seem to fire it frequently.
• And, of course, each of these needs to be balanced against the "aura" procs and the difficulty of finding enough raw enhancement value for the pets, as well, which is the central puzzle at the heart of modern MM slotting in much the same way that softcapping defenses and hammering out enough recharge for a sufficiently optimal attack chain are the central concerns for certain melee sets.

 

This is may not be especially useful for most defenders, but Dark Servant is a notable application and a very obvious opportunity for Maxzero's layering notion to apply profitably. I haven't yet had an opportunity to play with procs on Storm's pseudopets, but I see that you all have already begun that discussion without me so I look forward to reading what you come up with when my altitis allows me that fun.

 

[Maxzero]

6 hours ago, Scrapulous said:

 

A lot of this work has been done. There is frequent discussion of this topic in the mastermind channel of the Homecoming Discord and a few good threads in the MM section of these boards.

 

My impression of the state of the art in MM proc placement is, roughly:

• The Overwhelming Force proc is something that most any MM primary has a use for and the chief question is in figuring out which power gives it the most impact.
• Certain primaries do very well with certain procs because all or nearly all of the pets' powers benefit from the proc. This is what I think Maxzero was getting at with his layering notion. An element I didn't see him mention but that is very significant here is that each of a pet's powers has its own PPM timer. Notable primaries are mercs, who very much like slotting Achilles Heel and Touch of Lady Grey, and Necromancy, where the Lich goes from Controller to Dominator with the addition of a single Cloud Senses proc which will happily fire off of all of her powers, including her three big dark cones.
• Some procs are worth slotting even when the number of attacks that can use them is low-ish, because of their high recharge timer and wide area of effect - these procs will fire a lot when the power that employs them is used and so a single slot can result in a huge amount of effective damage enhancement which also has the benefit of being exempt from Enhancement Diversification limits. Examples include knockback conversion in Assault Bot (most especially Overwhelming Force) or -res procs in Grave Knights, whose big, chunky Broadsword attacks seem to fire it frequently.
• And, of course, each of these needs to be balanced against the "aura" procs and the difficulty of finding enough raw enhancement value for the pets, as well, which is the central puzzle at the heart of modern MM slotting in much the same way that softcapping defenses and hammering out enough recharge for a sufficiently optimal attack chain are the central concerns for certain melee sets.

 

This is may not be especially useful for most defenders, but Dark Servant is a notable application and a very obvious opportunity for Maxzero's layering notion to apply profitably. I haven't yet had an opportunity to play with procs on Storm's pseudopets, but I see that you all have already begun that discussion without me so I look forward to reading what you come up with when my altitis allows me that fun.

 

 

From my hazy memory the best set from proc while having good damage themselves was Thug. Bruiser can use both KB Smashing and Chance for Build Up. Enforcers can do both -Heel Proc and Lady Grey (though free slots may be an issue). The T1 pets can get some benefit from KB Smashing but the Arsonist does his own thing so you can't help him. Possibly put the Chance of Build up here because all 3 pets benefit (Arsonist is good AoE too) and slots might be tight for Bruiser.

 

You have Gang War to take all the defence procs.

Edited July 30, 2019 by Maxzero