Thoughts on Energy Blast on Defenders

[oedipus_tex]

I'm no expert, especially in the i25 rules. Energy Blast was long regarded as one of the dead worst Defender blast sets due to a combo of low base Defender damage and the scatter caused by the powers. 

 

Overall, Energy Blast has fast animating attacks and two decent (if late coming) AoEs. 

 

A couple of questions:

 

 

1. Is there really such a thing as a 'knockback tax'?

I ask this because in discussions of the new proc mechanics several have mentioned that E Blast has to spend a slot to convert kb to kd. But, I question whether this tax is 'real.' It's only really the AoEs that require kb to kd procs. Knockback in single target powers isn't a huge issue. The rate of knockback in Energy's AoE's is:

• Energy Torrent: 60%
• Explosive Blast: 50%
• Nova: 100%

 

That rate of mitigation seems extremely effective to me. It does mean Energy Blast will do lower damage in the end, but it's also significantly safer. Other sets can add knockdown to powers with a proc, but I don't think they can sustain the constant barrage of AoE knockdown that Energy Blast can. 

 

 

2. No desirable secondary effect.

This part if hard to argue with: E Blast doesn't benefit much from Defender's superior values. In fact, the value it adds (extra knockback distance!) is generally regarded as undesirable.

 

However, I question how much this matters in the current meta. Of the available sets, only a few offer secondary effects that benefit from Defender bonuses:

• Sonic - - Resist
• Radiation - -Defense (valued almost exclusively at high levels for -resist procs, which dont vary by AT)
• Beam Gun - See above
• Dual Pistols - See above
• Psi/Ice - Other than the Holds, just -Recharge
• Dark - -ToHit, arguably among the most useful
• Water - Mix, generally not benefitting the Defender more than other ATs
• Electric Blast - Endurance drain doesn't adjust by AT, so virtually no differences
• Fire, Archery, Assault Rifle - Nothing at all beyond mezz durations and the odd debuff

 

So, really just 2 sets out of 11 vary significantly by AT. Is it remarkable that Energy Blast doesn't vary?

 

(FWIW I've long argued that when Knockback is adjusted by AT it should apply to knockback chance and not knockback distance. However, that's a game balance issue unlikely to ever be settled. It's unfortunate it's not how developers saw the proliferation of powers from the outset.)

 

 

 

What are your thoughts?

 

 

 

[Gorgar]

I would argue that there's not a kb tax, in that if I don't *want* the kb, I don't tend to play energy blast.  There are plenty of other sets that are useful, and I don't see much point in taking a set with a consistent secondary effect if you don't want the effect.

 

I think energy pairs well with some defender primaries and poorly with others.  It goes well with storm and I mostly solo with my storm/energy.  If teaming, she's kind of an off-tank, again dealing with stray ambushes when needed, and providing Freezing Rain for the melee crowd, hoverblasting, and keeping things off the squishies.  It works pretty well, but she's not that helpful on a team that's steamrolling, in which case I'll just alt.

 

I've known a couple of really good emp/energy that similarly knew how to aim their kb, target intelligently, and use Energy Torrent to keep from being overrun by stray mobs.  My own emp is /sonic and uses the cone kb in that set in a similar manner.

 

Energy is probably a poor choice for some other primaries.  I would not pair it with dark or nature for sure.  The one place I'm considering slotting a kb->kd proc is in Phantasm on my ill/dark, where the pet has an obnoxious tendency to knock things out of the tar patch and not follow up and dispatch them.  So I get that kb can be detrimental, but it's also generally fun for me and my preference is to play energy when it works with the other powerset and not play it when it doesn't.

[Ankhammon]

Hover above and knock em into the dirt. 

[Sarah Bellum]

The only powers that can be problematic are the AoEs.  I can't see anyone with a real beef over single target knockback.  The issues with AoEs can be mitigated by positioning and judicial use.  I look at Energy blast as more difficult, but more rewarding than other sets.  It's also one of the more visually pleasing sets.

 

I used to really look at Energy blast as pretty "meh".  Liberal application of procs however has made this a joy to play. Basic slotting for me has been pretty simple as well:

 

Single target: Gladiator's Javelin, Explosive Strike, Force Feedback, & Entropy procs.

AoE: Positron's Blast, Javelin Volley, Explosive Strike, Force Feedback, Annihilation, & Sudden Accelleration procs.

 

Watching all the recharge procs going off almost becomes a game in itself. With the insane amount of blasting you end up doing, it's best to pair it with a non-busy primary. FF, for example *really* dovetails nicely with it.

 

All that said, I think Energy blast on it's own isn't that bad.  Using Force Feedback proc in every power really does make one of the more unique sets to use.

[Ankhammon]

I remember back when I had a Rad/Nrg defender and the biggest problem was honestly the end usage. I had KB +rech proc in most of my nrg powers and i would drop an end bar like nothing. Force Feedback is a two edge sword on Nrg.

 

I could even drop my blue bar when on a team if they didn't take enough damage to give me a good discount.

[Frosticus]

Given how powerful forcefeedback can be:

 

I think of it more as that forcefeedback proc often requires two slots. Many of the best spots for that proc only shine with the kb>kd IO as well. If you have a power that does well without the converter then I personally view it as a bonus.

 

glass half full 🙂

 

[Bossk_Hogg]

I groan whenever a defender w energy blast joins the team that doesnt have the KB to KD enhancers in their AE's. The last thing I want is barely damaged enemies scattered to the winds. Dark, Sonic, Water, etc can all use the ff proc essentially as well and have more utility in their secondary effect than random KB. 

Energy also doesnt really have any more proc slotting opportunities than most other sets either, as you can sub explosive strike for cloud senses, impeded senses, etc.  

[Golden Azrael]

I love using knock back to scatter enemies all over the map.  LOVE IT!  KNOCK BACK to KNDWN?  Heresy!!!  I dance for joy when mobs get blasted all over the map.  Then I blast 'em again and they get boomed even further away!

 

I hear energy has proc for 100% recharge opportunities.  Imagine that?  So you can knock them back even quicker!!!  (Force feedback?  I have one of the 'chance for 100% recharge that dropped on my FF/En' defender.  Maybe something I can use on my en/en blaster.)

 

Scattering enemies is the 1st thing I want to do.  If Tanks, Brutes and Scappers ('I win!') get their nose bend out of shape about that?  *tiny violin.

 

Knock back tax.  In my eyes?  It's hit and miss.  I'd like it 100% guaranteed.  For all the attacks.  Then you have real mitigation.  I want the 2ndary effect for Power Boost (i.e. knock back re-instated) so I can go back to knocking grey mobs half way across Independence Port.

 

Knock back Team.  (TM.)

 

Golden Azrael.

Edited September 5, 2019 by Golden Azrael

[Golden Azrael]

On 9/4/2019 at 1:44 AM, Ankhammon said:

I remember back when I had a Rad/Nrg defender and the biggest problem was honestly the end usage. I had KB +rech proc in most of my nrg powers and i would drop an end bar like nothing. Force Feedback is a two edge sword on Nrg.

 

I could even drop my blue bar when on a team if they didn't take enough damage to give me a good discount.

Bubble / Energy defender.  (Have an En Blaster, En Sentinel....) 

 

What I'd find was an emptying of the end bar.  I got really ticked off with it on live.  Found the same problem on re-live.

 

So?  The fundamental changes to en/en blaster transformed end on the en blaster.  Such a deep end discount, I barely have any end problems!  End isn't a problem there.  At all.

 

Sentinel?  It took me about 38 levels to nail down the end.  (Having Energy Armour 'heal/end' buff, a bit like the blaster version but not as good..., helps...)  But my key strategy is 1 end for light attacks, 2 for heavy attacks.  Any Toggles?  2 end reds.  ...and by the time the end got to about half way or less then the self buff in the energy armour would kick in.  Better that then the previous stat of emptying the bar completely after a round or two of your attack chain.  So annoying being out of end.  On teams?  I'm now the guy with 3/4s end bar while others are on the last 1/4 of their end.  I hear the En' Sentinel is mediocre damage.  It maybe have.  But I had fun playing it and it would have been my dream on live to have a blast energy tank.  Which is what it kind is.  Or an energy blasting scrapper?  I've been tanking with it.  Great stuff.  On this build, I even went extreme with x3 end reds on some heavy attacks until I stopped the end bar draining down so quick.

 

So, Defender was the 1st thing I rolled back on live (twice...with the last being a set build which was so disappointing...)...and persuaded by my Duo partner, I re-rolled it.  End was again an issue.  But learning what I'd learned from teh Sentinel, I was prepared to be patient...and take the long view.  Toggles?  Two ends.  Toggle management?  Essential for some of those powers like Repulsion Field.  Force Bubble?  Toggle management as they are end heavy.  But both have two end reds in them.  I wanted 3 end reds in each but slots were tight.  All attacks?  2 end reds.  Absolutely nail gunning the end problem down.  And I could last a fight vs an AV with moderate paces attacks where my duo partner could not.  But I'd made nailing the end a focus of my build.  One bonus vs mobs, was a revelatory power that isn't often discussed?  Victory Rush.  Every 5 mins?  Two minute END boost!  Off a defeated mob.  Defending on mob level the bigger the boost.  Often we hear about Assault and Tactics.  Manoeuvres even.  But Victory Rush is a must have power for me now for any defender.  Along with Assault and Tactics.  It's transformative.  It can stave off any end problem with a boost from mob or every other mob.  Along with end reds?  A sound basic strategy to keep more of your end bar from draining out.  Now?  By the time I got to epics?  I chose elec epic pool and took?  Power Sink.  So now I drain end off mobs all the time in melee. 🙂  So I have end reds x2 for the most part on attacks/toggles, victory rush AND Power Sink.  (And if you can't get that power to work you're holding it wrong. 😛 )

 

Then a good set build will nail down your end some more with the usual IO suspects like the Numina, Miracle and Performance Shifter Proc'.  I haven't even took Ageless (I have barrier instead, naturally....) and I have all the end I need!  I can call end upon command with Power Sink every minute following a hectic bout of combat.  Victory Rush will keep it ticking at the top...and sold set build has all the end bonuses and the odd end reduction thrown in there.  I'm running +4x8 with bosses.  Np problems!

 

I no longer tolerate running on empty.  But you have to make end reduction a focus of your build.  And that isn't cheap in terms of slots.  But I'm concerned with a good SO  build to about L45.  Putting in IO sets at 35.  But a Set Build from 45-50.  And sure, when you get incarnates?  Ageless is what you want.  But that's on top of a sound build.  Not a band aid.

 

Azrael.

 

"The only powers that can be problematic are the AoEs.  I can't see anyone with a real beef over single target knockback.  The issues with AoEs can be mitigated by positioning and judicial use.  I look at Energy blast as more difficult, but more rewarding than other sets.  It's also one of the more visually pleasing sets.

 

I used to really look at Energy blast as pretty "meh".  Liberal application of procs however has made this a joy to play. Basic slotting for me has been pretty simple as well:

 

Single target: Gladiator's Javelin, Explosive Strike, Force Feedback, & Entropy procs.

AoE: Positron's Blast, Javelin Volley, Explosive Strike, Force Feedback, Annihilation, & Sudden Accelleration procs.

 

Watching all the recharge procs going off almost becomes a game in itself. With the insane amount of blasting you end up doing, it's best to pair it with a non-busy primary. FF, for example *really* dovetails nicely with it.

 

All that said, I think Energy blast on it's own isn't that bad.  Using Force Feedback proc in every power really does make one of the more unique sets to use."

 

Sara, that has been revelatory.  Shame I've finished my Defender build.  But I will take this advice over to my En Sentinel (which has a 'non-busy' 2ndary)  or my En/En which I want to turbo charge with a set build.  I've never really bothered or saw the fuss in Procs.  But your post changed my mind instantly.  It 'dovetailed' nicely with my recent building experience for my Defender En/FF and my  Tanker SR/SJ.  I'd like to have a good swing at procc'ing an Energy build.  I want fast.  FAST.  Knock back.  KNOCK BACK!  Carnage.  Turbo fast.

 

Sara, have you got an energy build you can share?  *bats eyelids sweetly.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Golden Azrael

[Ankhammon]

And it really is pretty. It's one of the prettiest blast sets out there.

 

 

Hey, that's gotta count for something in CoH. 🙂

[Golden Azrael]

Pretty it is.  But it's fun to play.  Smooth as butter.  

 

Great blasting.  Great melee.  I've rolled an Energy Defender, Sentinel and Blaster.  Shame the Energy melee tank isn't as good (doesn't seem to have the same rock and roll zip.)

 

My favourite set.  Love 'teh' knock back.

 

My duo partner and myself names our duo characters 'Team Knockback.' 😄

 

I am going to try out a proc and turbo recharge version on my Sentinel or Blaster.  It's inevitable.

 

Azrael.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

Some people love KB

Some people hate KB

the best way for everyone to get what they want is a null the gull option. 

Then people who love it can keep it

And people who dont can have KD instead

[Sarah Bellum]

On 9/30/2019 at 10:43 AM, Golden Azrael said:

Sara, have you got an energy build you can share?  *bats eyelids sweetly.

Sure!

 

While I'm certain this isn't an optimal build by any means, it has been pretty darned good at keeping me alive while I pew at things. For teams, the build can just about cap everyone for defense.  Constant knock down from all the powers also really mitigates a lot of damage.  Repulsion Bomb is actually a really nice AoE that feels like it belongs in Energy Blast. Victory Rush, Power Sink, & Conserve Power do wonders for helping with all the endurance you burn through.

 

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[Golden Azrael]

Ty for the build.  🙂

 

You have 10 procs in your build? 😮

 

Azrael.

[Rejolt]

I’d like anything that resists an energy knockback to take a mag 1, 5 to 8 second (time depends on AT) stun. Knockback is all or nothing and when it’s all it tends to annoy. This would at least give some sets CCing synergy with it. 

Edited October 14, 2019 by Rejolt

[Mercurias]

Energy Blast probably underperforms when it comes to damage, but with the right build it's also really fun.

 

I feel like the fun factor outweighs the lack of damage, and especially so for Defenders because they tend to have lower base damage anyway.

 

My FF/NRG Defender is extremely fun to play. Sometimes his damage is like hucking a pool noodle ad Fort Knox, but that's fine. I have Force Bolt and zero reservations about knocking that boss over again, and again, and again, and again...

[Sarah Bellum]

On 10/10/2019 at 8:59 AM, Golden Azrael said:

Ty for the build.  🙂

 

You have 10 procs in your build? 😮

 

Azrael.

You're very welcome! All the procs, good sir/madam!

[Erratic1]

On 8/22/2019 at 1:06 PM, Sarah Bellum said:

The only powers that can be problematic are the AoEs.  I can't see anyone with a real beef over single target knockback. 

 

Clearly you have never been the Kinetics Defender using Transfusion whose anchor got knocked away from the people needing healing.

[Golden Azrael]

On 10/14/2019 at 5:04 PM, Rejolt said:

I’d like anything that resists an energy knockback to take a mag 1, 5 to 8 second (time depends on AT) stun. Knockback is all or nothing and when it’s all it tends to annoy. This would at least give some sets CCing synergy with it. 

Yes.  That's a good idea and point.  Energy torrent is powerful enough to knock over some of the mob but not all?  To me, that's erratic.  I do like the idea that some that don't get knocked over get a stun.  That what add another dimension to the set.  One of the best suggestions I've ever read.  Clever idea.

 

As for the 'lack of damage', yes, it is the fun factor that balances that somewhat.  To boost your damage, I recommended taking Assault and tactics so that you can hit more often than not. Try taking Victory Rush so you have at least 2 mins on full tap and try the elec epic for Power Sink to have end on demand.   All of these add to your quality of life, to hit harder, more often and up time so your damage is greater overall.  Make sure you take AIM for damage burst.  Also, try teaming with a fellow, like minded defender that has Assault as well for some damage stacking.  Try adding some -res into your IO set build as well.  There are also dam' set bonuses from your IO set build.  Don't forget to save up for and upgrade the Defender class AT sets.  I got the oranges and upgraded to purples with Catalysts.  And finally, Incarnates.  You can go Musculature, Reactive and Assault mode.   

 

I'm running +4 x8 with a ranged capped build.  I melt bosses and can take on swarms of Council vamps and werewolves.  Even a Sonic defender who teamed with me and saw what I was doing and said, 'Damn, I'm jealous.  I want to roll one of those....'  Plenty of res into the build as well.  

 

Another way to boost your damage is...if you are end sufficient (I am) and your defense is capped (for range I am....and I have Barrier to send me over the top for Inc' content...) then carry plenty of dam' inspires.  They boost your dam very well from mob to mob.  Also carry res (orange toughs) to compliment your def capping...and help with any melee range stuff that you do.  You can avoid the hand to hand stuff where vamps and wolves hit hard by hover blasting over them with torrent and exploding blast.  Both of which have -res built into them.  

 

I may or may not match a brute at full tilt but you can push a given class to it's glass ceiling limits.  In this case, I think I've proven my point on +4x8 with Bosses.

 

Also, duo'd (where this arrangement comes into its own....) the ITF on +2 x8 with bosses with my Duo Partner.  We made mincemeat out of the the 1st AV and big Rom?  We beat him this time.  Yes, we had Imperious help us and our Pets.  But the end result will say, Defenders score victory.

 

And there was a rush in that feeling.  Vindication.

 

Azrael.

Edited October 16, 2019 by Golden Azrael

[Golden Azrael]

On 10/15/2019 at 3:32 PM, Erratic1 said:

 

Clearly you have never been the Kinetics Defender using Transfusion whose anchor got knocked away from the people needing healing.

Birds of a feather flock together.

 

It's quite simple to me.  Team with like minded people.  I had a duo partner that wanted us to be 'Team Knock back.'  

 

So, someone suggesting something ridiculous like, 'Can't you line up your Nova against a wall?'  doesn't happen.

 

I have also tanked with a storm defender (same person, stuff blowing all about the place for 50 levels.)  As long as I get initial aggro and they bunch up and I can get off my AoE attacks?  After that, anything is fair game.  But if a defender gets over zealous and breaks taunt and you're left in the middle of a rooted mob who are out of range lampposts, I just move to the next mob.  Which suits me fine as I'm a progressive tanker.  

 

It's about understanding and equilibrium. 

 

So, I see things from both sides of the blast and knock back and melee fence.

 

Azrael.

[Erratic1]

34 minutes ago, Golden Azrael said:

Birds of a feather flock together.

 

It's quite simple to me.  Team with like minded people.  I had a duo partner that wanted us to be 'Team Knock back.'  

How nice that you can simply team with whom you choose! 

 

Sadly, there is no pick up group filter which allows the rest of us to specify, "No people who recklessly blow apart every group they see." Hmmm...maybe a petition should be started for this?

 

The point was the utterly baseless claim that nobody could object to single target knockback. I gave a specific example that I have personally experienced. If you want to make an on point response, deal with the situation described. To be fair, I, as the Kinetics Defender did not have a problem with knockback, the melee people expecting to be healed did. I was going to be fine regardless.

 

My typical solution to dealing with knockback is to refuse to deal with it. If I am playing melee and targets get knocked away from me, I find other targets to deal with, leaving the previous target to the knockback user to deal with. I figure we are both happy that way. Night before last I was running a tanker in a group with someone who continuously knocked groups away from me, so I started leaving pills when that happened and moving onto the next spawn. It was a source of joy to finish off the next group of mobs (on a Tanker) before the team finished killing the previous spawn which was a quarter to a third down in health when I bailed.

 

On ranged dps characters I mostly do not care about knockback. Sure, it would be nice for my AoEs to hit more targets than scattered groups of one, two, or three, but so long as I am not dying, I am not overly picky.

 

One might think I would have trouble with knockback on the single Controller I play, but she plays much more as a buffer (Time Manipulation) and to the extent that grouped opponents are nice, her effects--slow and knockdown--are area based, so mobs tend to be constrained regardless of being knocked around by area denial.

 

It's not that I do not have knockback using characters, but I try to consider others on my team and what is efficient. I do not blow apart spawns because "it makes me feel good". I use knockback to keep foes away from other players or force enemy grouping so area damage hits more things. But to each their own.

Edited October 16, 2019 by Erratic1

[Mercurias]

20 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Clearly you have never been the Kinetics Defender using Transfusion whose anchor got knocked away from the people needing healing.

I have a friend who plays a Kinetics/Energy Defender, and I have seen her do this to herself right before dying. It was hilarious, but the point is well-made.

 

I find this to be a fairly rare occurrence, but I’ve experienced it enough to aim Transfusion towards an enemy that is either locked down with a mez, already knocked down, or has KB protection as a precaution when I can.

[Erratic1]

15 minutes ago, Mercurias said:

I have a friend who plays a Kinetics/Energy Defender, and I have seen her do this to herself right before dying. It was hilarious, but the point is well-made.

 

 

Thank you for the laugh this provoked as I imagined what it looked like. 

 

Of course, with a bit of practice it could be turned into a technique for sending healing where you want it. 😁😁😁

Edited October 16, 2019 by Erratic1

[bartwart]

I run a storm/nrg defender King of Diamonds and I put it right in my description that i'm going to be doing a lot of knock back and I don't care what you think.  Out of respect for teammates that may not want to deal with it, they can leave or kick me from the team.  But I WILL have my knockback fun.

 

So far I haven't been kicked from a team, but its just a matter of time.  However, I've had plenty of teammates quit out of frustration.  I've even had teammates try to reason with me, to which I just reply back with a ~hilarious~ comment.  Some teammates thinks its great.  Other hate it.  Other do not care.  You also find out that there's a large cadre of knockback lovers in the closet, too afraid to annoy their teammates, but secretly admiring what I'm doing.  Some just tolerate it or try to cope by splitting off from me to mobs I'm not focused on.  I was on a 3 storm defender team one time by chance and it was glorious fun.

Edited October 22, 2019 by bartwart

[Mercurias]

1 hour ago, bartwart said:

I run a storm/nrg defender King of Diamonds and I put it right in my description that i'm going to be doing a lot of knock back and I don't care what you think.  Out of respect for teammates that may not want to deal with it, they can leave or kick me from the team.  But I WILL have my knockback fun.

I totally get this, and I get the appeal, but my main AT of choice is probably Controller, and I’ve played too much of my Elec/Kin to think it’s  always hilarious to have my powers negated by someone blowing the mobs I’ve stacked up all across the map, because Elec Control has no means of preventing it.

 

My FF/NRG Defender will bounce enemies around, for sure, but I try to slot a KB to KD IO in his AoEs so I can get the soft control out of it without starting fights. Force Bolt, however, is 5-6 slotted with Force Feedback, and it can yeet mobs into the next time zone.