An Update from The Homecoming Team

[William Valence]

2 hours ago, Skyhawke said:

Tldr; I have faith in the Homecoming team and am perfectly willing to wait, play and see. 

I'm not going to belabor the point, but I will mention once my opinion on this. I don't have faith in the Homecoming team.

 

That's the crux of the original questions that I asked. I'm willing to give them a fair chance, but all I know is I'm concerned and hoping tremendously for community-driven checks and balances. CoX won't be taken from me again. I've got the code and can play on my own, but I would like to see the community back. I'm just very, very concerned about the implementation.

[Myrmidon]

3 hours ago, Skyhawke said:

I've jokingly posted in this thread a few times (apologies for taking part in derailments), but I'll put my serious 2 influence in. After COH, Tabula Rasa and Auto Assault (which I really enjoyed), I will say that I'm still a bit wary of NCSoft. I do, however, trust the Homecoming team. 

 

When I heard COH was back, I did my research before diving in and letting others know it was back. Some lambasted the Score team for keeping their sever a secret for years and all I could think was " Can you blame them?".  

 

Even knowing I could just be setting myself up for imminent DOOOOOOM, I liked what I saw and came on board. Since then, I've been very impressed with what I've seen and the direction the Homecoming team is trying to take the game. 

 

Tldr; I have faith in the Homecoming team and am perfectly willing to wait, play and see. 

Truth be told, when I took several weeks vacation in Europe, one of my concerns was “Hopefully, the servers will still be up and running when I get back”. It looks like I got my wish.😁

[Nexys]

4 hours ago, Skyhawke said:

I've jokingly posted in this thread a few times (apologies for taking part in derailments), but I'll put my serious 2 influence in. After COH, Tabula Rasa and Auto Assault (which I really enjoyed), I will say that I'm still a bit wary of NCSoft. I do, however, trust the Homecoming team. 

 

When I heard COH was back, I did my research before diving in and letting others know it was back. Some lambasted the Score team for keeping their sever a secret for years and all I could think was " Can you blame them?".  

 

Even knowing I could just be setting myself up for imminent DOOOOOOM, I liked what I saw and came on board. Since then, I've been very impressed with what I've seen and the direction the Homecoming team is trying to take the game. 

 

Tldr; I have faith in the Homecoming team and am perfectly willing to wait, play and see. 

That's how I feel.  I first heard about Paragon Chat about a year or so ago, and I was beyond thrilled to be able to just get back in to Paragon City, fly around, collect badges, and see the scenery I loved.  When I heard, this past April, about Homecoming...well, I was like a little kid getting a surprise from Santa.

 

I don't have faith in NCSoft either, but I have grown to really trust the Homecoming team.  What they have given us, whether it lasts another month, year, or decade, is a true gift.  Their openness to discuss new ideas for the game, to work on the Beta server, and to give us back the game we love puts them in high esteem in my opinion.  I hope this can last for years to come.

[Black Zot]

14 hours ago, Nexys said:

That's how I feel.  I first heard about Paragon Chat about a year or so ago, and I was beyond thrilled to be able to just get back in to Paragon City, fly around, collect badges, and see the scenery I loved.  When I heard, this past April, about Homecoming...well, I was like a little kid getting a surprise from Santa.

 

I don't have faith in NCSoft either, but I have grown to really trust the Homecoming team.  What they have given us, whether it lasts another month, year, or decade, is a true gift.  Their openness to discuss new ideas for the game, to work on the Beta server, and to give us back the game we love puts them in high esteem in my opinion.  I hope this can last for years to come.

 

The problem is, for negotiations to end well BOTH sides have to approach the table in good faith, and NCSoft has an established history of not doing that.  It doesn't matter if we trust the HC team or not - NCSoft still has the power to take their ball and go home anytime they please, and the tendency to do just that.

[Ukase]

14 minutes ago, Black Zot said:

 

The problem is, for negotiations to end well BOTH sides have to approach the table in good faith, and NCSoft has an established history of not doing that.  It doesn't matter if we trust the HC team or not - NCSoft still has the power to take their ball and go home anytime they please, and the tendency to do just that.

I had planned to just make a comment - next thing I knew I had about 60 lines of text! Half of it irrelevant. So - I'll say this: I'm not a fan of NCSoft, but there are details about how things went down that we just don't know and won't ever know. We have the game we can play with an active community. Savor it, even the parts that drive you a bit nuts. 

[Abraxus]

41 minutes ago, Black Zot said:

 

The problem is, for negotiations to end well BOTH sides have to approach the table in good faith, and NCSoft has an established history of not doing that.  It doesn't matter if we trust the HC team or not - NCSoft still has the power to take their ball and go home anytime they please, and the tendency to do just that.

I totally get that, and they pretty much did shine previous efforts on for years with no results.  The difference here is, we already have the game, and the code is an infinite resource on the web.  That was never the case before, and a chip that no previous negotiating team had to play.  So, even for NCSoft, they face a new reality that changes the balance of things drastically.  Their choice now, is to figure out how to capitalize on this new reality, or try to maintain the status quo, and spend time and resources, attempting to police a game that they didn't see much of a future in for the longest time.  Now, it has a great potential future, and they can be a part of it.  Any business would look at that, and see opportunity, despite their first impulse to crush their enemies.  That's why I'm encouraged.  Because it's a potential win-win for them.  The other alternative is a futile effort to put the genie back in the bottle, and one only has to look at what happened to the music, movie/video industries to know how that ultimately turns out.  They fought mightily to keep things as they were, and spent a lot of money to do it.  But, in the end, the changes they fought so hard against, happened anyway, because of the power that the digital age, and the web gave to their customers.  They forced a change that was a long time coming, and just needed the leverage to get them to see a different point of view, or admit that it just no longer made sense to fight the crushing tides of change.  Either way, it happened. 
 

There are no guarantees.  But, the chances of success are better than they have ever been IMHO.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Abraxus

[jubakumbi]

32 minutes ago, Abraxus said:

I totally get that, and they pretty much did shine previous efforts on for years with no results.  The difference here is, we already have the game, and the code is an infinite resource on the web.  That was never the case before, and a chip that no previous negotiating team had to play.  So, even for NCSoft, they face a new reality that changes the balance of things drastically.  Their choice now, is to figure out how to capitalize on this new reality, or try to maintain the status quo, and spend time and resources, attempting to police a game that they didn't see much of a future in for the longest time.  Now, it has a great potential future, and they can be a part of it.  Any business would look at that, and see opportunity, despite their first impulse to crush their enemies.  That's why I'm encouraged.  Because it's a potential win-win for them.  The other alternative is a futile effort to put the genie back in the bottle, and one only has to look at what happened to the music, movie/video industries to know how that ultimately turns out.  They fought mightily to keep things as they were, and spent a lot of money to do it.  But, in the end, the changes they fought so hard against, happened anyway, because of the power that the digital age, and the web gave to their customers.  They forced a change that was a long time coming, and just needed the leverage to get them to see a different point of view, or admit that it just no longer made sense to fight the crushing tides of change.  Either way, it happened. 
 

There are no guarantees.  But, the chances of success are better than they have ever been IMHO.

You realize you are basically describing strong arming a company based on the fact thier code was stolen and is in the wild, right?

It's very close to blackmail, actually.

None of the events leading up to this point, other than they show interest in the game, are in anyway a positive for NCSoft in the marketplace - their stuff got stolen and the current users of that code are now using it as a lever to get more from the company - a company that worries about how it looks ...

 

Yeah, I don't see this as being in a better place now.

[Abraxus]

I'm just saying there is historical precedent for this scenario with industries a LOT bigger than NCSoft, with a lot more money at stake.  At some point, the reality of the situation, regardless of how it came to be, become a factor for consideration, leaving two choices.  Fight for the past, or capitalize on the present.  Those aforementioned industries chose the former, and lost a lot of money in that fight, and ultimately lost the fight.  What's being offered is a much easier, and mutually beneficial choice, so it is not beyond the realm of possibility that they would take advantage of it.

[jubakumbi]

The 'reality' is that we have no idea what is actually being discussed, who is running the actual discussion, what it entails in the business considerations, who will own the code, will other servers be allowed to run, nothing.

 

All we have are, yet again, are a few 'well meaning' players that think they can successfuly negotiate with a company that has typically been pretty hard to deal with in these instances, telling us 'we are talking'.

 

We have nothing more than we did years ago, just some reassurances from a few people that were able to get some servers online, which in the eyes of the 'community' makes them gods, but all it really shows is that they can stand up a few servers...it does not show they have the negotiating skills, finances, or business experience to pull of something very skilled people tried to do multiple times and failed.

 

Yes, this team got the servers online.

No, it does not mean they know how to really take this to the finish line.

 

Am I hopeful?

Sure, but I am also a realist.

I stated earlier, there is nothing good about revealing these talks, in my personal and professional opinion, until it's a 'done deal'.

 

I have wished the HC team luck on this a couple times.

I don't want to see it fail, but I do not have any data right now that in any way assures me the HC team actually has the needed skills to accomplish this.

They just have a lot of hope and promises from my PoV.

[Abraxus]

Well, there is the possibility that you might not know exactly what they bring to the table, because nobody has really been explicit about exactly WHO is involved.  There might be more there than just Homecoming folks, who might have the right business acumen to fill in the gaps in these matters.  But, you're right in that nobody knows for sure.  All I'm trying to say is that they have a bargaining chip they didn't have before, and regardless of how it was obtained, it is a reality that other business in similar situations eventually had to acknowledge, and move on.

 

I have high hopes, and also allow for the possibility that things could go sideways.  However, the only reason they shared what they did, was in the interest of transparency (which is exactly what they said they would do), and because it appeared that things were looking that positive, and that close to being finalized that they didn't think it too premature.  That last part is obviously supposition on my part, given what they said at the time, but assuming good intentions on the part of the HC team is not too risky a thing IMHO.  So, I believe it fits the situation.

[jubakumbi]

3 minutes ago, Abraxus said:

Well, there is the possibility that you might not know exactly what they bring to the table, because nobody has really been explicit about exactly WHO is involved.  There might be more there than just Homecoming folks, who might have the right business acumen to fill in the gaps in these matters.  But, you're right in that nobody knows for sure.  All I'm trying to say is that they have a bargaining chip they didn't have before, and regardless of how it was obtained, it is a reality that other business in similar situations eventually had to acknowledge, and move on.

 

I have high hopes, and also allow for the possibility that things could go sideways.  However, the only reason they shared what they did, was in the interest of transparency (which is exactly what they said they would do), and because it appeared that things were looking that positive, and that close to being finalized that they didn't think it too premature.  That last part is obviously supposition on my part, given what they said at the time, but assuming good intentions on the part of the HC team is not too risky a thing IMHO.  So, I believe it fits the situation.

But what the HC team shared is NOT transparency, they just shared Hope.

No details, nothing.

NOT transparency, it was just 'feeding the beast' because they were worried about being 'too quiet'.

 

Again, a well meaning group that simply has not demonstrated the business experience and actions to take this to the finish line.

 

HC has been transparent on some costs, but that's about it.

I am just being real, they have not demostrated, through actions or resumes, anytihng more than players with hope that can run servers.

[Abraxus]

I take "transparency" in this context to mean, they are telling us all that they can without ulterior motives.  If some folks take it as false hope, that is their own perception of what was shared in that spirit.  I'm not sure where your unshakable lack of faith in their business abilities comes from, but it seems that while you wish them luck, you see them as in over their heads, and ultimately doomed to fail.  Besides being a very pessimistic outlook, it assumes a lot with little actual knowledge of what is happening.  Almost the exact counter to those of us with optimism about it, without the benefit of actual knowledge.  I guess we won't know which was actually justified until it's over, one way, or the other.

 

For me, I think I'll have a little faith, and keep the optimistic outlook.  Mainly because I see no reason not to.  But, I respect your opinion, even if I don't agree with it. 

You do you man! 😎

[MunkiLord]

I'm very hopeful the negotiations work out, I feel it's a win-win if they do. And if NCSoft didn't at least see the potential, they never would have came to the table at all. One thing I am confident in is that I expect any server of any noticeable population getting a C&D after these negotiations if they don't have a deal with NCSoft. This includes HC if the talks don't work out.

[Abraxus]

14 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

I'm very hopeful the negotiations work out, I feel it's a win-win if they do. And if NCSoft didn't at least see the potential, they never would have came to the table at all. One thing I am confident in is that I expect any server of any noticeable population getting a C&D after these negotiations if they don't have a deal with NCSoft. This includes HC if the talks don't work out.

A very real possibility.  But, I maintain that if things weren't looking very positive, and close to completion, they would not have shared what they have already.  They know things that we don't know, so all we can do is speculate based on what we have.  However, there are some inferences that can be made from that small tidbit of information.  Your observation that if there wasn't a compelling reason to do so, NCSoft would have never even shown up, and just smacked everyone with a C&D right away.  That would have been the easiest thing they could have done, and yet they didn't.  What has happened since is that the community is thriving, and enjoying this game again.  Hopefully, they see some value in that.  We are all waiting on the edge of our seat for a positive conclusion.  But, as has been pointed out already, things could easily go sideways at any moment.  We have encouraging words from the Devs that would suggest otherwise, at least for now.
 

We don't know where it will end, or when.  We only know it's going to be one hell of a ride!

Edited August 20, 2019 by Abraxus

[jubakumbi]

15 minutes ago, Abraxus said:

I take "transparency" in this context to mean, they are telling us all that they can without ulterior motives.  If some folks take it as false hope, that is their own perception of what was shared in that spirit.  I'm not sure where your unshakable lack of faith in their business abilities comes from, but it seems that while you wish them luck, you see them as in over their heads, and ultimately doomed to fail.  Besides being a very pessimistic outlook, it assumes a lot with little actual knowledge of what is happening.  Almost the exact counter to those of us with optimism about it, without the benefit of actual knowledge.  I guess we won't know which was actually justified until it's over, one way, or the other.

 

For me, I think I'll have a little faith, and keep the optimistic outlook.  Mainly because I see no reason not to.  But, I respect your opinion, even if I don't agree with it. 

You do you man! 😎

You outline right here how they are not being transparent.

It is not a matter of outlook, at all, it is about the facts presented.

It is not a matter of opinion, or optimism, it's about the facts.

 

The HC team has shared precious few facts.

Why?

Typically because that is how business works - don't talk about the deal until it is done.

 

So why bait the community like this?

 

My opinion has nothing to do with the outcome.

The outcome relies entirely on the business accumen of the HC team, and we have nothing, absolutely nothing, that shows us the team has what it takes to succesfully negotiate.

 

Again, I would love to find out one of the names in the ring is someone that has the right skills, when so many have failed in the past.

Perhaps a couple succesful deals they have made previously?

HC has not given us anything other than hope and some monthy revenue info in this area.

 

I am simply watching as the events unfold, without false hope, with the knowledge that business deals go sideways for all kinds of reasons and that is is always a bad idea to mention them before the ink is dry, on a deal many others have failed to seal.

None of that means I do not want a good outcome, but I have the distict impression what I consider good and what HC considers good wiil not be the same. 🙂

 

[Abraxus]

All I can say to that is, without knowing for sure who is involved, you seem sure that they are unqualified.  There might very well be additional folks participating that meet the requirements you spoke of, or at least consultants furnishing pertinent information.  We just don't know.  But, I have optimistically assumed that they would have brought in whatever expertise was necessary, where you seem to assume that they just took on NCSoft all by themselves.  Neither of us have any proof one way, or the other.  But, my way has the benefit of logic, in that nobody willingly walks into an unknown situation without having thought the matter through, and knowing their own limitations.  I'll go so far as to admit it's a possibility, but I would think unlikely. 

We both want a good outcome, but only I seem to believe it's reasonably possible.  Perhaps just a difference it outlook, but I'm good with mine for the moment. 😎

 

Edited August 20, 2019 by Abraxus

[jubakumbi]

36 minutes ago, Abraxus said:

All I can say to that is, without knowing for sure who is involved, you seem sure that they are unqualified.  There might very well be additional folks participating that meet the requirements you spoke of, or at least consultants furnishing pertinent information.  We just don't know.  But, I have optimistically assumed that they would have brought in whatever expertise was necessary, where you seem to assume that they just took on NCSoft all by themselves.  Neither of us have any proof one way, or the other.  But, my way has the benefit of logic, in that nobody willingly walks into an unknown situation without having thought the matter through, and knowing their own limitations.  I'll go so far as to admit it's a possibility, but I would think unlikely. 

We both want a good outcome, but only I seem to believe it's reasonably possible.  Perhaps just a difference it outlook, but I'm good with mine for the moment. 😎

 

Not about belief or hope, or a positive or negative outlook, from my PoV.

I have no data to show the HC team can or cannot do this, except how they have handled the issues that have been public.

That's the point.

There is no transparency, no data, nothing either way ... just Hope.

 

So we have no data on if they are qualified to make these kinds of deals or not.

 

You seem to want to turn my realism into a negative outlook when that is not the case.

From my PoV, it's all just faith and hope, there is no data.

That is a statement of the facts at hand, not a positive or negative outlook. 

Without data, all we can do is rely on past experience in similar situations as we speculate.

Business deals can and do go badly for all kinds of reasons, this initiative has been attempted previously, and we have no indication that the current team has any more skill than the previous teams ... the data at hand is slim.

 

I am not attching emotions to these facts.

[Abraxus]

The lack of data, or specific information only means that we don't know exactly who is participating, or the content/status of what is being discussed.  However, I don't see that lack of data, or specific information as proof positive of your assertions.  You tell me that all I am talking about is hope, when it seems all you're talking about is the exact opposite, with no more empirical evidence than I have.  The bottom line is that neither of us KNOW what's going on.  But, I'm giving them a little credit, and exercising a little faith, that they collectively know what they're doing, and that their intentions are without ulterior motive. 

All that said, neither of us is being moved by the other's arguments, so we agree to disagree, move on, and no hard feelings.  Yes? 😎

 

(Oh, and await the outcome hoping for a positive response, in spite of any obstacles, of course)

Edited August 20, 2019 by Abraxus

[jubakumbi]

28 minutes ago, Abraxus said:

The lack of data, or specific information only means that we don't know exactly who is participating, or the content/status of what is being discussed.  However, I don't see that lack of data, or specific information as proof positive of your assertions.  You tell me that all I am talking about is hope, when it seems all you're talking about is the exact opposite, with no more empirical evidence than I have.  The bottom line is that neither of us KNOW what's going on.  But, I'm giving them a little credit, and exercising a little faith, that they collectively know what they're doing, and that their intentions are without ulterior motive. 

All that said, neither of us is being moved by the other's arguments, so we agree to disagree, move on, and no hard feelings.  Yes? 😎

 

(Oh, and await the outcome hoping for a positive response, in spite of any obstacles, of course)

It's not a matter of being moved.

 

I am agreeing with you - there is no data - there is no proof.

 

'Faith' is where we diverge, I have none in anything, 'faith' is blind hope IMO.

You, and others, are being led to think that this group is capable of doing something other groups have failed multuple times to do, with no evidence they can succeed.

There is no evidence to agree or disagree over, there is only the vague Hope that HC has lit a candle for with this thread.

 

I am simply trying to point out the fact that this 'faith' has been placed in a group of people that have provided the servers, but very little data on how they plan to pull off what others have not.

 

I want to see some facts and evidence, not just vague promises from online chat handles.

Who is the Board of Directors?

When do they meet?

When can we pose questions?

What are the terms they are trying to contract?

How long will the contracts be in place?

Is it exclusive?

Will the end users have to agree to a contract/EULA with any company other than HC?

 

I can keep going.

 

If you or anyone wants to place thier faith in such thin data, that's fine, people do that all the time.

This deal would not be one I would go to my boss with anything more than a 10% based on the data at hand.

 

IMO, for anything resembling a reasonable use of the word transparent, HC has not net the definition by a long shot on this.

IMO, they are winding up a whole group of people with Hope and no facts.

TBH, that is what I dislike the most about the situation - HC made this tiny crumb of an announcement, and gave us nothing of real value, just making us all dance on the head of a pin over the tidal wave of angst and supposition...over a vague hope they might know how to take it to the finish line.

 

I simply don't find it to be at all professional or good business relations, and yet there are people lining up to give them money...the world is a strange and wonderful place.

[Abraxus]

Yup.  We still agree to disagree.  Situation normal, and moving on....😉

[jubakumbi]

44 minutes ago, Abraxus said:

Yup.  We still agree to disagree.  Situation normal, and moving on....😉

SIgh.

We do not disagree.

 

it's impossible to even get to the real reasons for any of this when all you want to do is tell me to stop talking. 🙂

 

[Abraxus]

6 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

SIgh.

We do not disagree.

 

it's impossible to even get to the real reasons for any of this when all you want to do is tell me to stop talking. 🙂

 

I only maintain that we at lager-heads, impasse, however you choose to label it, and that further discussion serves no purpose except to fall into the kind of debate that will get us both GM smacked.  I like it around here, so if it preserves the peace, I choose to cease discussion on that portion of the topic before said "smacking" begins.  😎

[Mansome]

5 hours ago, Abraxus said:

I'm just saying there is historical precedent for this scenario with industries a LOT bigger than NCSoft, with a lot more money at stake.  At some point, the reality of the situation, regardless of how it came to be, become a factor for consideration, leaving two choices.  Fight for the past, or capitalize on the present.  Those aforementioned industries chose the former, and lost a lot of money in that fight, and ultimately lost the fight.  What's being offered is a much easier, and mutually beneficial choice, so it is not beyond the realm of possibility that they would take advantage of it.

Can you give us example of this so we know which game and company?

[jubakumbi]

23 minutes ago, Abraxus said:

I only maintain that we at lager-heads, impasse, however you choose to label it, and that further discussion serves no purpose except to fall into the kind of debate that will get us both GM smacked.  I like it around here, so if it preserves the peace, I choose to cease discussion on that portion of the topic before said "smacking" begins.  😎

At this point I can honestly say ... you lost me.

Seemed like we were having a fine discussion.

🖖

Edited August 20, 2019 by jubakumbi

[Abraxus]

40 minutes ago, Mansome said:

Can you give us example of this so we know which game and company?

It was in reference to a previous post, where I talked about the transformative changes that were forced on the music, and movie industries due to the realities of the digital landscape.  People didn't like paying $20 for a single CD album of music, and so they resorted to torrents, and sharing of the ripped files.  Same went for movies on disk, though I forget exactly what the pricing structure was before they relented.  Essentially, they tried to fend of the tide of this new reality by employing legal means.  Law suites against individuals, then later on torrent hosts.  They managed to take a few down, and preserve the status quo for a time.  But, ultimately even they had to admit that things had changed, and these things were going to continue to happen, and there was precious little they could do to stop all of it.  So, they reduced the price of music, and made individual tracks available, also at a more reasonable price.  What the folks were doing was technically illegal.  However, it underscored the concept of infinite resource, and the power of the web to distribute it pretty much at will, so eventually they were hauled kicking and screaming into the new age. 

I don't know if that is what will happen here.  But, the same basic concept applies.  The code is out there.  They can choose to fight that, or capitalize on it.  It didn't work out so well in the long run for those other, larger industries, so there is a historical lesson to be learned there if they choose to fight it.