/Super Reflexes

[Boon]

I recently started a DP/Super Reflexes and I know nothing about super reflexes I never played it back in the day  and any information would be greatly appreciated.

[Azrath]

Defense is all about reducing the odds of being hit.  I know this seems pretty obvious, but it implies that an understanding of the attack mechanics are needed.

 

Every attack in City of Heros carries two 'tags' on it: Vector (How it's delivered) and Type (What it does)  Fire Blast, for example, would be (ranged)(fire).  A council grenade launcher might be (AoE)(Lethal).  Super Reflexes is about positional defense; so it only cares about Vectors.  In effect, you've reduced 'What do I need to defend against?" to three things: Ranged, Melee, and AoE.

 

Against an undefended target; enemies have a base hit chance of 50%.  Which means they also have a 50% chance of missing; and generating misses is Super Reflexes' goal.  For easy math, just add your Defense number to 50; and that's the likelyhood that an even-level, unbuffed mob will miss you with any given attack.

 

Except that, of course, no Defense is perfect and untouchable player characters would be broken.  Because of this, there's an accuracy floor that will look at you and say "Nuh-uh."  Regardless of Defenses, buffs, debuffs, the weather or the price of tea in china, there is always a 5% chance to hit.  (5%= 1/20.  So in D&D terms, a Natural 20 always hits).  There is also a Streakbreaker that will take pity both on players and thug alike and force a hit.  Because the computer's a cheating bastard.  (Players also benefit from it, to be clear.)

 

So what does this mean for Super Reflexes?  Well, if you can get your three Vector Defense numbers up to 45%, you will be as untouchable as the game mechanics allow for against all normal content.  You can stand in front of Archvillians or giant monsters and they will miss time and again.  Until they hit you and crush you like a bug because you've got no other mitigation.  ^_^

 

Incidentally, the 'soft cap' for Defense rises to 59% in Incarnate content, just because stuff in there is higher level / buffed.

 

TL;DR: /SR is Peanut Butter & Jelly Sandwich simple.  You only need three things.  Bread (Melee Defense), Peanut Butter (Ranged Defense), and Jelly (AoE Defense) to have a perfectly enjoyable sandwich.  Just don't eat too much.

[ParaBruce]

Thank you, Azrath! That post made me want to go try SR now. :)

 

[bockchow]

For soloing I'm not sold on the defensive sets that don't have a good heal or major regeneration. The hybrid sets like Willpower/Bio just seem so much stronger on paper. But I haven't played end game in 12 years so maybe I'm wrong.

[Redlynne]

Super Reflexes is the path of No Get HITSU!!

 

Stray from the path at your own peril.

Note: Medicine Pool is recommended for anyone playing Super Reflexes, because you're going to need to recover from the hits that "leak" through your Defenses (and hit you at full strength).

[Marshal_General]

My question has always been:

Which is easier?

A non defense set reaching the defense soft cap or a defense set reaching the resistance soft cap?

 

I am betting that it is by far easier to hit the defense soft cap.

[marcussmythe]

Defense is easier to get.

 

Especially the case with Sentinels, because your mostly interested in softcapping range, with AOE a secondary concern.  You might go for typed instead if your set gives typed defense rather than poaitoonal defense.  (TYPED DEFENSE IS BOO.  POSITIONAL DEFENSE IS YAY)

 

That being said - even on a Defense set, softcap is a major build investment.  One thing Im kicking around is going for a mixed res/def/heal set and only aiming for ‘one purple’ cap - something like WP or Invuln.  Not sure yet.

[Rinani]

Soft cap is not a major investment on SR, basically you need the two 3% defense uniques and then the rest can be done with pools, CJ/Hover + Maneuvers + Weave and you are there.

 

It should be noted that SR is better on Sentinels than anywhere else:

+recovery built in

Alternative to Practiced Brawler it has Master Brawler. If you don't mind having your mez protection on your toggles, you should definitely go for this power. Master Brawler makes Focused Fighting and Focused Senses get the normal Mez protection divided between them. Just need to take the power, on top of that it is a pretty great power for those times that damage gets through the defenses. Providing a scaling Absorb buffer depending on how damaged you are.

Combined with the scaling resist of SR, the two makes you survive a lot of things while on low health.

[Myrmidon]

Soft cap is not a major investment on SR, basically you need the two 3% defense uniques and then the rest can be done with pools, CJ/Hover + Maneuvers + Weave and you are there.

 

It should be noted that SR is better on Sentinels than anywhere else:

+recovery built in

Alternative to Practiced Brawler it has Master Brawler. If you don't mind having your mez protection on your toggles, you should definitely go for this power. Master Brawler makes Focused Fighting and Focused Senses get the normal Mez protection divided between them. Just need to take the power, on top of that it is a pretty great power for those times that damage gets through the defenses. Providing a scaling Absorb buffer depending on how damaged you are.

Combined with the scaling resist of SR, the two makes you survive a lot of things while on low health.

 

Now, you make me want to try out SR on a Sentinel.

[marcussmythe]

Scaling resists? Non-clicky mezz prot?  An absorb shield?

 

This is a radical change to the SR I knew.

 

Hmm.

[Without_Pause]

Note: Medicine Pool is recommended for anyone playing Super Reflexes, because you're going to need to recover from the hits that "leak" through your Defenses (and hit you at full strength).

 

This is why many people use Dark melee with it for melee characters. Here, Dark and Water would pair very nicely.

[Force Redux]

Super Reflexes is the path of No Get HITSU!!

 

Stray from the path at your own peril.

Note: Medicine Pool is recommended for anyone playing Super Reflexes, because you're going to need to recover from the hits that "leak" through your Defenses (and hit you at full strength).

 

QFT. Plus Field Medic passive makes Medicine Pool QoL so much better with no interrupts.

[Sovera]

The no interrupting is just for Aid Other though.

[drbuzzard]

Soft cap is not a major investment on SR, basically you need the two 3% defense uniques and then the rest can be done with pools, CJ/Hover + Maneuvers + Weave and you are there.

 

It should be noted that SR is better on Sentinels than anywhere else:

+recovery built in

Alternative to Practiced Brawler it has Master Brawler. If you don't mind having your mez protection on your toggles, you should definitely go for this power. Master Brawler makes Focused Fighting and Focused Senses get the normal Mez protection divided between them. Just need to take the power, on top of that it is a pretty great power for those times that damage gets through the defenses. Providing a scaling Absorb buffer depending on how damaged you are.

Combined with the scaling resist of SR, the two makes you survive a lot of things while on low health.

 

Damn, I didn't realize this. I thought master brawler just didn't give status protection and figured it was a trap. Hell, I should have made a SR sentinel by now then. I'll have to get on that. I am not overly fond of click status protection (as I'd like to plan on perma hasten and you can only have one autoclick).

[EggKookoo]

So what does this mean for Super Reflexes?  Well, if you can get your three Vector Defense numbers up to 45%, you will be as untouchable as the game mechanics allow for against all normal content.  You can stand in front of Archvillians or giant monsters and they will miss time and again.  Until they hit you and crush you like a bug because you've got no other mitigation.  ^_^

 

One thing I'd like clarity on is if it's worth it to go over that 45% value to ward against -Def debuffs? So if my Def is, say, +60%, I know I'm still capped. But if I get a -15% Def debuff, am I still capped?

[Force Redux]

The no interrupting is just for Aid Other though.

Oh no! I don't really use it on myself mostly on my robots, so I never noticed

[drbuzzard]

I was under the impression that bosses and higher level foes had better than the 50% chance to hit, so it was a good idea to pump up that defense number. I could certainly be wrong though.

[oldskool]

So what does this mean for Super Reflexes?  Well, if you can get your three Vector Defense numbers up to 45%, you will be as untouchable as the game mechanics allow for against all normal content.  You can stand in front of Archvillians or giant monsters and they will miss time and again.  Until they hit you and crush you like a bug because you've got no other mitigation.  ^_^

 

One thing I'd like clarity on is if it's worth it to go over that 45% value to ward against -Def debuffs? So if my Def is, say, +60%, I know I'm still capped. But if I get a -15% Def debuff, am I still capped?

 

Super Reflexes already has a high amount of resistance to defense debuffs.  So going over 45% isn't worth it, in my opinion, for that particular goal with SR. 

 

If you're concerned about specific groups with LTs or Bosses with higher than average hit chances, then using inspirations covers that gap if you are opposed to certain Incarnate solutions.  Also, those kinds of enemies are priority targets to die first while their friends whiff whiff whiff. 

[EggKookoo]

So what does this mean for Super Reflexes?  Well, if you can get your three Vector Defense numbers up to 45%, you will be as untouchable as the game mechanics allow for against all normal content.  You can stand in front of Archvillians or giant monsters and they will miss time and again.  Until they hit you and crush you like a bug because you've got no other mitigation.  ^_^

 

One thing I'd like clarity on is if it's worth it to go over that 45% value to ward against -Def debuffs? So if my Def is, say, +60%, I know I'm still capped. But if I get a -15% Def debuff, am I still capped?

 

Super Reflexes already has a high amount of resistance to defense debuffs.  So going over 45% isn't worth it, in my opinion, for that particular goal with SR. 

 

If you're concerned about specific groups with LTs or Bosses with higher than average hit chances, then using inspirations covers that gap if you are opposed to certain Incarnate solutions.  Also, those kinds of enemies are priority targets to die first while their friends whiff whiff whiff.

 

So if I'm understanding right, if I put one SO (assume even level) into Agile and one into Focused Senses, each of which grants (I think) +22.5% +Def to ranged, I'm now at the ranged Def cap and any more +Def in those or any other powers is overkill?

[oldskool]

So if I'm understanding right, if I put one SO (assume even level) into Agile and one into Focused Senses, each of which grants (I think) +22.5% +Def to ranged, I'm now at the ranged Def cap and any more +Def in those or any other powers is overkill?

 

I wish that is how it worked.  How awesome would it be to put only 1 even level SO quality enhancement into a power and have it max out functionality? 

 

That's not how it works though.  If you turn off Focused Senses and Agile, then your defense value is a big donut... 0.  When you turn them on, your defense value becomes whatever you enhanced it to.  Which in the above case is 22.5% (in reality the even level SO value is 21.8%). 

 

You need to add more defense by both enhancing the power further and from other sources like IO set bonuses, other pool powers, etc in order to fill out that defense to 45%. 

[EggKookoo]

Oh, I see. I'm confusing the +Def % provided by the SO and my character's base Def.

[marcussmythe]

An Enhancement increases what the power does, not the base value on the sheet.

 

So, lets assume a power that gave 20% defense against melee.  And its the only power you have.

 

Turn it on, your melee defense is now 20%.

 

Slap an enhancement worth 30% in it, and that 20 becomes 26.  Turn the power on, your defense is now 26.

 

There are diminishing returns on enhancing a given aspect of a power.  If you slapped 6 of those 30% enhancements in the power, it would not buff the power to 56% - in fact, more like 40%, or 39%.

 

The general rule of thumb is that enhancements much past 3 even level SOs, or 2 lvl 55 IOs, is almost entirely wasted.

[arcanaville]

So what does this mean for Super Reflexes?  Well, if you can get your three Vector Defense numbers up to 45%, you will be as untouchable as the game mechanics allow for against all normal content.  You can stand in front of Archvillians or giant monsters and they will miss time and again.  Until they hit you and crush you like a bug because you've got no other mitigation.  ^_^

 

One thing I'd like clarity on is if it's worth it to go over that 45% value to ward against -Def debuffs? So if my Def is, say, +60%, I know I'm still capped. But if I get a -15% Def debuff, am I still capped?

 

Super Reflexes already has a high amount of resistance to defense debuffs.  So going over 45% isn't worth it, in my opinion, for that particular goal with SR. 

 

If you're concerned about specific groups with LTs or Bosses with higher than average hit chances, then using inspirations covers that gap if you are opposed to certain Incarnate solutions.  Also, those kinds of enemies are priority targets to die first while their friends whiff whiff whiff.

 

I would always try to build for slightly above 45% as a hedge against defense debuffs.  SR has huge resistances to those, but it is important to realize that because SR's protection comes mainly from high defenses at or near the soft cap it is also much more vulnerable to defense debuffs.

 

A -7.5% defense debuff might get resisted all the way down to -0.375%, but for an SR at the soft cap this actually increases incoming damage by a relative 7.5%.  A 7.5% increase in incoming damage is not unnoticeable.  But an SR running around with 47% defense can ignore the first -40% in raw defense debuffing, which encompasses most of what you're ever likely to be hit by.

 

Where this was most noticeable was in things like the ITF where you're surrounded by defense debuffers, often right up to the aggro cap.  The difference between 45% defense and 47% defense was definitely noticeable there: my MA/SR with slightly overcapped defenses would regularly outtank other SR that only built to 45%, or sometimes even slightly lower thinking there was no real difference.

 

In *most* normal content the difference is not very noticeable and you can often cover with inspirations.  But that's less practical in content with wall to wall debuffers.

[oldskool]

In *most* normal content the difference is not very noticeable and you can often cover with inspirations.  But that's less practical in content with wall to wall debuffers.

 

My original goal was addressing normal content.  Additionally, the person I was responding to was asking if it was worth it to shoot for 60% in order to avoid cascading defense failure. 

 

Anyway...  The points you bring up about having some buffer are obviously good ones.  However, I want to point out something about Sentinels that further supports an idea of maybe going for a buffer. 

 

Sentinels have lower values to their defenses, their resistances, and their protections.  All of it.  That means Sentinel DDR is less than that of Scrapper SR DDR.  After thinking about it, I decided to check and sure enough the DDR is less on Sentinel toggles and passives.  This means Sentinels are going to be more open to defense debuffs than their melee counterparts if they are in the unfortunate position of being pounded on by multiple defense debuffing enemies. 

 

Sentinels have an advantage of range to leverage their offense making stuff like Hover valuable if you are concerned about it.  That might help against the Cimos in ITF but any other gun enemies will still be annoying. 

 

So after thinking about, Sentinels should build for as much defense as they are comfortable with and certainly plan for buffering their values a little to make up for the shortcomings of the AT.  That is, if a given player finds value in that pursuit over other potential effects or build goals. 

 

Anyway, nice to see you chime in, Arcana!

 

Can I call you Arcana? :) 

[Force Redux]

So what does this mean for Super Reflexes?  Well, if you can get your three Vector Defense numbers up to 45%, you will be as untouchable as the game mechanics allow for against all normal content.  You can stand in front of Archvillians or giant monsters and they will miss time and again.  Until they hit you and crush you like a bug because you've got no other mitigation.  ^_^

 

One thing I'd like clarity on is if it's worth it to go over that 45% value to ward against -Def debuffs? So if my Def is, say, +60%, I know I'm still capped. But if I get a -15% Def debuff, am I still capped?

 

Super Reflexes already has a high amount of resistance to defense debuffs.  So going over 45% isn't worth it, in my opinion, for that particular goal with SR. 

 

If you're concerned about specific groups with LTs or Bosses with higher than average hit chances, then using inspirations covers that gap if you are opposed to certain Incarnate solutions.  Also, those kinds of enemies are priority targets to die first while their friends whiff whiff whiff.

 

I would always try to build for slightly above 45% as a hedge against defense debuffs.  SR has huge resistances to those, but it is important to realize that because SR's protection comes mainly from high defenses at or near the soft cap it is also much more vulnerable to defense debuffs.

 

A -7.5% defense debuff might get resisted all the way down to -0.375%, but for an SR at the soft cap this actually increases incoming damage by a relative 7.5%.  A 7.5% increase in incoming damage is not unnoticeable.  But an SR running around with 47% defense can ignore the first -40% in raw defense debuffing, which encompasses most of what you're ever likely to be hit by.

 

Where this was most noticeable was in things like the ITF where you're surrounded by defense debuffers, often right up to the aggro cap.  The difference between 45% defense and 47% defense was definitely noticeable there: my MA/SR with slightly overcapped defenses would regularly outtank other SR that only built to 45%, or sometimes even slightly lower thinking there was no real difference.

 

In *most* normal content the difference is not very noticeable and you can often cover with inspirations.  But that's less practical in content with wall to wall debuffers.

Nice to see you here Arcanaville :-)