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Time is on my side! A MM /Time guide for all primaries. Now with updates!

Warlawk

By Warlawk
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Warlawk

Warlawk

Posted
Posted (edited)

We all know that time is amazing. It has an amazing toolkit and is probably slightly overtuned. I've been working on a project to compare the various primary sets from a common baseline secondary and decided on time since it works well with everything and is a very versatile and well performing set, it is a fantastic set for people just checking out mastermind for the first time as well. This is intended to be a comparison of how they feel to level and play, not a number-crunch-pylon-speed-test sort of guide. Those are very valuable and have their place, but this thread is not that place. For each set I will present my thoughts, my experiences leveling and playing it and then a complete IO build for it.

 

***This thread is currently a WIP, I am still in process of leveling some of the builds. Each specific build section will contain the info for how far I have actually played that set.***

 

Disclaimer here at the beginning. I am presenting my experience and opinions, not fact. This guide represents my outlooks and approach to playing masterminds. It is not the only way, the right way or anything other than my way. Once I am leveled up enough to have all my pets I almost exclusively solo and that will be reflected in my build choices. I consider most primary set attacks to be a trap. There are exceptions but most of them are terrible and a waste of your time that will do nothing but waste your endurance. I also consider Masterminds to be complete and actually ready to play NO EARLIER than level 22, more likely 26. These are the levels for your T3 pet and the final pet upgrade respectively. In the early levels you will feel weak and soloing is often tedious. My advice for early level play is actually to join teams and focus on keeping your pets out of doorways and using your support abilities to supercharge the team.

 

Important note for all builds. Power Boost is a short duration buff but any clicky powers will retain the boost for their entire duration. This equates to an extra ~6% defense and ~5 ToHit on your Farsight and is key to keeping your defenses and pet accuracy topped off once you have it. You will see a lot of crossover on slotting between the builds as they all have a similar goal. S/L defense will cover something like 90% of the enemy attacks in the game, so the goal is to softcap S/L defense Changes to defense have reduced the value of S/L defense, but most builds will end up softcapped because Scorpion Shield is a pre-req for getting Power Boost which is hugely impactful, and then get Perma Hasten and as close to perma Chronoshift as possible without sacrificing too much. This provides a universal survivable baseline for the MM themselves and lets me judge how the different primary sets perform.

 

@Bopper has an excellent Guide to /Time which really does a fantastic job of looking at and breaking down the strengths of the set and reviewing each power specifically. Well worth a read if you're preparing to play the set for the first time.

Beasts/Time (Played to 40)

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Demon Summoning/Time (Played to 50)

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Mercenaries/Time (Played to 50) Updated for 27.6

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Necromancy/Time (Played to 50) Updated for 27.6

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Ninjas/Time (Played to 50) Updated for 27.6

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Robotics/Time (Played to 50) Updated for 27.6

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Thugs/Time (Played to 50) Updated for 27.6

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For any prospective new Mastermind players trying out the AT I highly reccommend the Numpad bind controls listed in my signature. I then program my extra mouse buttons to trigger the most commonly used binds but I like having the full set available for when I really want to finesse something.

 

I am open to any questions or commentary!

Mastermind (Ninjas - Time Manipulation).mbdFetching info...

Mastermind (Mercenaries - Time Manipulation).mbdFetching info...

Mastermind (Robotics - Time Manipulation).mbdFetching info...

Mastermind (Necromancy - Time Manipulation).mbdFetching info... Mastermind (Thugs - Time Manipulation).mbdFetching info...

Edited by Warlawk
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Numpad binds for Masterminds - A collection of Farming focused builds - MM /Time guide for all primaries

@Zen Warlawk on Indomitable, @Warlawk#1697 in discord.

Currently struggling with mostly recovered from health problems. Gaming time nonexistent inconsistent.

lobster

lobster

Posted
Posted

That is some serious dedication to a secondary!

 

I took nin/time to maxed(?) incarnate back on live, and it was quite strong, strong enough that playing that you might not ever consider ninja/ to be an underperforming set - /time does a great job of shoring up most of the weaknesses (letting you defcap, I think, plus the heal over time is way better than a flat heal for them) and enhancing strengths (stacking -res with the -res proc, etc.).

 

My first mm on HC was beast/time and I've just hit incarnate range on her.  Moving through the DA content with no issues.  Beasts are pretty much like sturdier ninjas with less aoe, so /time naturally compliments them as well.

I agree with your implied point that /mace is THE epic/patron pool to go with /time, due to Power Boost.  This is unfortunate, as it's generally so much better than the other options that diversity is discouraged.    Hoping for an epic overhaul someday (see my suggestion post ; ) ).
 

Guides:  Mastermind Epics | Dominator Secondaries | 
Suggestions: Mastermind Epic Overhaul

Bopper

Bopper

Posted
Posted

Nice work. I noticed you also posted this in the guides section. Since this is already stickied in the Mastermind section, you might want to remove the other post to consolidate discussion into a centralized location.

PPM Information Guide               Survivability Tool                  Interface DoT Procs Guide

Time Manipulation Guide             Bopper Builds                      +HP/+Regen Proc Cheat Sheet

Super Pack Drop Percentages       Recharge Guide                   Base Empowerment: Temp Powers

Bopper's Tools & Formulas                         Mids' Reborn                       

Warlawk

Warlawk

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  On 8/26/2019 at 7:36 PM, Justisaur said:

So I take it Thugs was your favorite/best based on the comments?

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Thugs was the best all arounder during the leveling process I think and offered the smoothest performance. I think I actually like Demons better but that's thematic more than anything else. Between Bots/Thugs/Demons it would be tough to pick a top performer as they all have slightly different quirks.

  On 8/26/2019 at 7:57 PM, Bopper said:

I noticed you also posted this in the guides section. Since this is already stickied in the Mastermind section, you might want to remove the other post to consolidate discussion into a centralized location.

Expand  

Cross posted by suggestion of CR actually so I think I'll just let it be for the moment. Actually, would you mind if I threw a link to your time mini-guide in the OP?

Numpad binds for Masterminds - A collection of Farming focused builds - MM /Time guide for all primaries

@Zen Warlawk on Indomitable, @Warlawk#1697 in discord.

Currently struggling with mostly recovered from health problems. Gaming time nonexistent inconsistent.

Bopper

Bopper

Posted
Posted
  On 8/26/2019 at 8:52 PM, Warlawk said:

Cross posted by suggestion of CR actually so I think I'll just let it be for the moment. Actually, would you mind if I threw a link to your time mini-guide in the OP?

Expand  

I don't mind at all. 

PPM Information Guide               Survivability Tool                  Interface DoT Procs Guide

Time Manipulation Guide             Bopper Builds                      +HP/+Regen Proc Cheat Sheet

Super Pack Drop Percentages       Recharge Guide                   Base Empowerment: Temp Powers

Bopper's Tools & Formulas                         Mids' Reborn                       

synfoola

synfoola

Posted
Posted (edited)

Leveling a Bots/Times was a pleasant surprise (other than the 3rd drone, that I named LeeroyBot, adopting the Thug Arsonist personality early on) and just got better & better, Tankermind'ing long before I got Scorpion Shield...but, I honestly wish I would've leveled it as a Thugs/Time instead.  The easy slows and TH-Debuffs are missed playing my Thugs/Kin MM; she's a blast on teams but, solo-wise, it's hard to resist the temptation to go Mace mastery again for the early AoE immobilize, even with it's horrid activation time. 

[Edit: I also forgot to mention that Thugs also gives you one less pet to have to slot a KB-->KD IO in before you get that AoE Immobilize. 😕 ]

Edited by synfoola
plainguy

plainguy

Posted
Posted

thank you for the post and the link. 

I was trying to grasp my head around time power set and this will help me understand it.

 

I am a big traps guy and I am trying to get out of my comfort zone. 

Why Softcap is important: https://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011/01/why-is-softcap-so-important.html

Limits: https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits

Attack Mechanics: https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics

Semi & Petless Mastermind Builds: https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/10994-petless-and-semi-petless-masterminds/

 

Warlawk

Warlawk

Posted
  • Author
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  On 8/31/2019 at 6:47 AM, ParaBruce said:

Hey, @Warlawk, a question about the robots/time build: why both Super Speed and Flight? Fine powers, both, but do I really need them both? 🙂

 

Expand  

Nope, it was more an issue of not needing anything specifically in that spot. It's already got 5 lotgs, perma chrono shift (and thus perma hasten). It's going to be over s/l cap once your probot throws a bubble on you... it pretty much hit all the boxes I wanted to check for the build so I needed something there that would give value out of a single slot. That one power choice slots the 20% slow resist IO as well as combining with stealth in celerity to let you ghost missions if you want to.

 

Really, it's a flex spot. If you wanted something else there it's not going to hurt the build to do that. Hell, it's got a power pool still wide open as well so you could grab TP friend or something if that floats your boat.

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Numpad binds for Masterminds - A collection of Farming focused builds - MM /Time guide for all primaries

@Zen Warlawk on Indomitable, @Warlawk#1697 in discord.

Currently struggling with mostly recovered from health problems. Gaming time nonexistent inconsistent.

kelly Rocket

kelly Rocket

Posted
Posted

I'd strongly recommend against Overwhelming Force in your Assault Bot. In my experience, he'll throw enemies in all directions with that still. Only Sudden Acceleration actually completely stops his Knockbacks. I'd also recommend SA in both other summons, because they too do knockback quite frequently in my experience, and knockback works against Bots' damage moreso than other sets even. Bots is heavily dependent on keeping the enemies clumped together for damage output.

 

Here's my Bots/Time. It's soft-capped (Overcapped, actually) on positionals and types, except for Psionic, a bit heftier S/L resists, fully soft-caps the bots (Incarnate caps all of them except the Protectors, when you use Power Boost before Farsight), and dishes excellent damage in my experience. Three unique -recharge procs, one of which is slotted in two separate powers, mean this build can generally seriously hamper even AVs' attack rates. I have basically no reservations in recommending this build. I've soloed TFs, AVs, and GMs with it.

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Warlawk

Warlawk

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Thanks for submitting the build, looks like a great alternative. As I said bots/time was my first character coming back to HC so I didn't have most of the IOs for the leveling experience. There are so many resources out there for bots I didn't invest a huge amount of time into the build so it's likely this is a better build.

 

However, this:

  On 8/31/2019 at 8:30 AM, kelly Rocket said:

I'd strongly recommend against Overwhelming Force in your Assault Bot. In my experience, he'll throw enemies in all directions with that still. Only Sudden Acceleration actually completely stops his Knockbacks.

Expand  

is factually incorrect. In there interest of testing I logged in and ran a mission with nothing but Assault Bot summoned while running the Overwhelming Force IO. Lots of KD, not a single instance of KB.

  • Like 1

Numpad binds for Masterminds - A collection of Farming focused builds - MM /Time guide for all primaries

@Zen Warlawk on Indomitable, @Warlawk#1697 in discord.

Currently struggling with mostly recovered from health problems. Gaming time nonexistent inconsistent.

kelly Rocket

kelly Rocket

Posted
Posted

Well I've literally experienced it. Put Overwhelming Force on the Assault Bot, was seeing knockback left and right (And I had Sudden Acceleration on the others, so it wasn't them, and I was playing on +4/x8 so it wasn't a low level target problem).

 

I noticed whenever the Assault Bot used his Incendiary Swarm Missiles, they'd cause knockback. And yes, the Assault Bot had been resummoned. This went on for a couple of days before I got sick of it and swapped the Sudden Acceleration from the Battle Drones to the Assault Bot, and that stopped the Assault Bot causing knockback, but now the Battle Drones were doing it (Albeit significantly less than the Assault Bot was).

 

So I bought another Sudden Acceleration and put it in the Battle Drones and it fixed the problem and I've not had it since.

 

You can look here and see my bug report on it, and others who replied that they were having the same issue. There are other posts in the bug reports forum on it as well.

ParaBruce

ParaBruce

Posted
Posted
  On 8/31/2019 at 8:04 AM, Warlawk said:

Nope, it was more an issue of not needing anything specifically in that spot. It's already got 5 lotgs, perma chrono shift (and thus perma hasten). It's going to be over s/l cap once your probot throws a bubble on you... it pretty much hit all the boxes I wanted to check for the build so I needed something there that would give value out of a single slot. That one power choice slots the 20% slow resist IO as well as combining with stealth in celerity to let you ghost missions if you want to.

 

Really, it's a flex spot. If you wanted something else there it's not going to hurt the build to do that. Hell, it's got a power pool still wide open as well so you could grab TP friend or something if that floats your boat.

Expand  

 

Great, thank you!

Warlawk

Warlawk

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  On 8/31/2019 at 9:34 AM, kelly Rocket said:

Well I've literally experienced it. Put Overwhelming Force on the Assault Bot, was seeing knockback left and right (And I had Sudden Acceleration on the others, so it wasn't them, and I was playing on +4/x8 so it wasn't a low level target problem).

 

I noticed whenever the Assault Bot used his Incendiary Swarm Missiles, they'd cause knockback. And yes, the Assault Bot had been resummoned. This went on for a couple of days before I got sick of it and swapped the Sudden Acceleration from the Battle Drones to the Assault Bot, and that stopped the Assault Bot causing knockback, but now the Battle Drones were doing it (Albeit significantly less than the Assault Bot was).

 

So I bought another Sudden Acceleration and put it in the Battle Drones and it fixed the problem and I've not had it since.

 

You can look here and see my bug report on it, and others who replied that they were having the same issue. There are other posts in the bug reports forum on it as well.

Expand  

I believe it's happening, and I believe you've seen it. Your original post presented it as an issue tied to Assault Bot specifically slotting OF, though that's likely just a side effect of the language since that's where I have it slotted. My first thought was the same as yours in the bug report and that it's an issue of stacking magnitude. From what you've described and my own test of running him solo it looks like it need an outside source to stack with however.

 

Looking over your slotting in general I must admit I'm not thrilled with the extremely low combat slotting on Probots (I know they aren't huge DPS, but...) as well as the complete lack of accuracy slotting on the Assault Bot.

 

I think I'm going to revisit my own bots/time and see how much I'm noticing the issues you're describing this weekend. I do appreciate the feedback though!

Numpad binds for Masterminds - A collection of Farming focused builds - MM /Time guide for all primaries

@Zen Warlawk on Indomitable, @Warlawk#1697 in discord.

Currently struggling with mostly recovered from health problems. Gaming time nonexistent inconsistent.

Redlynne

Redlynne

Posted
Posted
  On 8/31/2019 at 3:14 PM, Warlawk said:

looks like it need an outside source to stack with

Expand  

KnockDOWN ... when stacked ... turns into KnockBACK.

This is because KnockDOWN is a "subset" condition of KnockBACK, rather than being its own unique thingy.

 

So yes, if you stack enough KnockDOWN together in too short a time frame, you're going to get KnockBACK no matter what.  It's just the way the math crumbles (see: cookies versus empires).

IifneyR.gif

Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.

Warlawk

Warlawk

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Posted (edited)
  On 8/31/2019 at 5:58 PM, Redlynne said:

KnockDOWN ... when stacked ... turns into KnockBACK.

This is because KnockDOWN is a "subset" condition of KnockBACK, rather than being its own unique thingy.

 

So yes, if you stack enough KnockDOWN together in too short a time frame, you're going to get KnockBACK no matter what.  It's just the way the math crumbles (see: cookies versus empires).

Expand  

Well, I know how the mechanics work, I ran into the issue on burn with the winter set by accident. I was more referring to the specifics of this instance where Assault Bot does not trigger it while solo solo and needs an outside source to stack with for it to be an issue.

Edited by Warlawk

Numpad binds for Masterminds - A collection of Farming focused builds - MM /Time guide for all primaries

@Zen Warlawk on Indomitable, @Warlawk#1697 in discord.

Currently struggling with mostly recovered from health problems. Gaming time nonexistent inconsistent.

kelly Rocket

kelly Rocket

Posted
Posted
  On 8/31/2019 at 3:14 PM, Warlawk said:

I believe it's happening, and I believe you've seen it. Your original post presented it as an issue tied to Assault Bot specifically slotting OF, though that's likely just a side effect of the language since that's where I have it slotted. My first thought was the same as yours in the bug report and that it's an issue of stacking magnitude. From what you've described and my own test of running him solo it looks like it need an outside source to stack with however.

 

Looking over your slotting in general I must admit I'm not thrilled with the extremely low combat slotting on Probots (I know they aren't huge DPS, but...) as well as the complete lack of accuracy slotting on the Assault Bot.

 

I think I'm going to revisit my own bots/time and see how much I'm noticing the issues you're describing this weekend. I do appreciate the feedback though!

Expand  

I find the Assault Bot rarely if ever misses with the slotting I'm using. Between Supremacy, Tactics, and the 45% (!!!) accuracy bonus I'm getting from Set Bonuses, he doesn't seem to need any additional slotting.

 

And I mean, if they wander out of Supremacy range they're dead anyway as all the Auras drop, Maneuvers drops, etc.

Warlawk

Warlawk

Posted
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Posted (edited)
  On 9/1/2019 at 12:52 AM, kelly Rocket said:

45% (!!!) accuracy bonus I'm getting from Set Bonuses

Expand  

Interesting to hear that he doesn't miss but set bonuses don't apply to your pets.

 

EDIT: As an aside I put in a few hours soloing on the Bots/Time today just to see how it ran. I ran the build that I posted with OF in Assault bot and nothing to convert KB in the others. People have different levels of tolerance for different things but I didn't find KB happening often at all. It did happen without question, but not often. Of the times it did happen it was just as likely to be a case of knocking a mob that is closing to melee back into the flame patches as opposed to knocking something out of the patches. I played without using Web Envelope and keeping an eye out for KB and noticed very little.

 

Once you start using that 5 second Web Envelope to keep spawns in place it's pretty much a non-factor in my experience, but as I said different people have different tolerance levels.

Edited by Warlawk

Numpad binds for Masterminds - A collection of Farming focused builds - MM /Time guide for all primaries

@Zen Warlawk on Indomitable, @Warlawk#1697 in discord.

Currently struggling with mostly recovered from health problems. Gaming time nonexistent inconsistent.

kelly Rocket

kelly Rocket

Posted
Posted (edited)

 

  On 9/1/2019 at 12:57 AM, Warlawk said:

Interesting to hear that he doesn't miss but set bonuses don't apply to your pets.

Expand  

You might be correct there, although I think Accuracy bonuses may actually apply to pet powers if the bonus was active when you summoned them...

 

Anyway, against +4s the Assault Bot should have 39+11.81+10 = 60.81% HitChance. And he procs Soulbound frequently, which gives him another 32% which brings his HitChance to 92.81, nearly capped. And reaches the cap when I'm affected by Power Boost.

 

You could trivially swap the Damage/Endurance for the Accuracy/Damage in the Superior Mark of Supremacy pieces on the Assault Bot and bring him to 1.3313(39+11.81+10) =  80.956353% HitChance even without the Soulbound proc though.

 

I built this a while back, so if I were doing it again I might shuffle the pet IOs a little bit, but a lot of it would stay as-is. I'd be strongly tempted to ditch the AoE Defense Aura for instance, but it would need to be replaced with another IO from the Superior Command of the Mastermind set to keep the +10% recharge bonus.

 

The Protector Bots I view as more force-field/heal bots than anything, and their damage is sort of weak so I focused on the defense, and making sure they didn't knock any targets back on me.

 

Edit: Additionally, the Nerve or Vigor alphas would easily eliminate any accuracy shortfalls this build might have.

Edited by kelly Rocket
Warlawk

Warlawk

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That's one of the things I love so much about this game. Two different people have have the same power set combination and build with different goals and specifics and end up with different results that are both completely viable for 99%+ of the content in the game.

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Numpad binds for Masterminds - A collection of Farming focused builds - MM /Time guide for all primaries

@Zen Warlawk on Indomitable, @Warlawk#1697 in discord.

Currently struggling with mostly recovered from health problems. Gaming time nonexistent inconsistent.

kelly Rocket

kelly Rocket

Posted
Posted

Heh. My goals were simple:

 

1. Soft cap all the things!

2. Perma-Hasten and Chrono Shift.

3. Maximize pet damage through crowd control locking the enemy into as small an area as possible.

4. Eh... Add some S/L/E/N resist I guess...

 

Only real shame in the build is I have full Gaussians for the defense boost, but I have basically no way at all to make use of the Build Up proc. Aside from Kick, Shadow Maul, and the Blackwand lol.

 

Still, it does so much I can hardly complain about the one thing it doesn't do.

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