Maxzero

Doesn't Doublehit take into account recharge? The pet may do more per Doublehit but how often does it use Knockout Blow compared to how often a Scapper might use Rend? Doublehit works as advertised for pets if you are willing to go through the hassle of resummoning. The 'balance' is just extra busy work to enable it. Doublehit for pets should be balanced around the damage it does rather then the amount of finicking around you are willing to do to enable it.

How is the surivivability of Demons though? That's probably the only thing holding me back. My Thugs can softcap all defence with /Storm. Demons are about 20% defence with Leadership. Sure they get resistances but to me defence is much better then resists. They need to stay alive to provide the -res.

How do they benefit extra? Henchmen are their DPS no different from a Blaster getting Double hits on their powers . If pets didn't benefit from double hit you may as well not take it at all.

One key point about /Storm is that it is the only secondary where you can kill if your Henchmen are not around. Sometimes you play in fast moving groups and its just not worth it to summon a bunch of pets and buff them. A well built /Storm can kill a whole spawn just using Epic/Villain Power pools, Tornado, LS and the odd MM attack.

For max DPS Thugs/Storm is probably the highest DPS in the game let alone as a MM. Can still softcap all pet def and softcap S/L/E def with 30ish resist for yourself. But yeah you are not indestructable. You have a Psi hole you need to watch out for. My current build: | Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1574;759;1518;HEX;| |78DA65544B4F135118BD77664A9996D2228F82144A5BA0654AA71D752D898808528| |3167C2C0C19A1D09A9636ED34C2D2857FC08D2B4DDCB8746502BA334A108CFFC0F8| |DA18178AF1B1AE5FEFF7A54CD2499B73E7DCF33DEEB9F74E7AEB7CC7B3D97B538CF| |BA60B66B5BA9236AB56B652CC6FAE392F9B56AD6216183CEE8C655AF9D5914CAE64| |39E1DD7F2C5BC9D48AC5D2A6BE94AB6D548336FE5C6D7D5DCF58A54A9124F9CD0DE| |65E2C950AFA85427E236779C578216BAE652BD55CBEEC12EF997236BBE641594305| |518199727E55B7A54E9BAB59EA74BB1FDAD1E1FFDAC1E8A93BD83585314361D24DC| |2CF1263432A533E21B67FA4F7AF0D54585969C6C20F1EF606B2712E18993F013054| |D6F688F031A2EBBE24B2ABE0888C5A2EF7729CBB248BB93DC8E3A0CC8E10135C17E| |89DA47792BEDD8758854E549C73A834D74F73C33D8823C38051958D8611274288FB| |50C84D0EB86FE0CA3B960829B6937276B6C962E5FDEF710D61E8C9433D79E2B83E8| |DD082145ECC2B790F25C1F9DE11EE21BE85DA5D54BBEB08B913BF09FF20F6FCC55A| |7DFFD087BE03F48843ED6EF2A85BB82F03D38BDD48BD7E2EF66AE414AAA3862CB22| |9A0F19353FE4E72C8450EB9B9D0863A08BD889A07F100BA1D605CC40E5C47874E2E| |139EC56E03D3D86D601BB05B61C3DF411E555804EA0E52B7831F5023F5418BC40D9| |16B875023485C9076FE2E9408934BE12FB89EC814D68B904BA3FBC4BFC2BAA374CA| |B620768CD63B9640ED788A30899A715D228F0829760752C6B0AE12BB8A311319C22| |544ED0A626219635E404C9C7A8DEFE09A269F13EEE27A26C99BC437EC3941F55ECA| |78271BB1FA532E4E5A720EE79233A84D9AC81B45DC13E30EEEDD2E4CA7E824A6E8B| |41A747A032DF7546B61522D8CD1C29C6E61CEB4300B7646C5DED30D0E7BAB2F2A34| |84791E473F541F7C0990ABFF7035BF208C47D0B7A3638EF310FAD033CFC5B9FA69D| |7C730DF2FBBFE21F6107A80FB74CBD560B1D66DDBD8B48D176DE359ADB99EFA45DB| |785E6BDE85FA9CD6FC82D417E04A1A14FB1FF302FD75| |-------------------------------------------------------------------| For an all round build Thugs/Time is pretty damn good. Much safer defensively but weaker offensively. Since it does not need Ageless it can get away with Clarion. Up to you what you value more.

Honestly I find rotations too rigid. I almost always use a priority system for my characters. Basically for this guy I make sure Freezing Rain, Storm, Tornado and Enflame are on cooldown. Then just alternate Blind and Arcane Bolt. Psionic Tornado for AoE situations.

Pretty sure this is the latest one: | Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1538;743;1486;HEX;| |78DA65944B4F535110C7CF6D6F2D7DF190968750682958686969057589A1A2C1806| |9824BB15C4BA14DDA5E72DB4658BAF00B608C2B8DF8001F891B8DB8F51B285163A2| |1BA3892B05C17D9D7BFF0334E90DE477CE9CF9CFCC99734E6756CE3B5F5EBC392EA| |4E6445E29955209B558D6D47C3EA3592F2BE58AA6E4057DEE2BD98C6F42CB159732| |9A4F5DF425B28A5AB2D242E0C8FF401A9DCAE72BA59C5A3C30F4D6F84C541617A3B| |365552BA4662B85825AA490C299544936AB6AE98CB6EA302617F2B9A56CD98E85E5| |4C66C105B36E25897B7239978E26F52CB9746A46299549D941F584E8FF8124F8AB5| |AC4944988B82C4C050954885E59C89366633E340C0E0FE9B489F923AD49AC90B655| |16BE1BA07F155C271F89E34B5711FFD83C3305DAE7C0C66B3C57C0B50121CCAC35A| |F0B23A77C0F74DE071BB8A606CEE7BC05AD8D1A6E31125785C52319BEB7299E15F1| |24EB57F80D7D03D3E46283BFC566C7FEDB1C6087133CE1623682BE26B08F823A389| |7238CBAEE502E1772995D3FD0AFC69F60CF966CE822BF50FB02699BE02B379D453D| |CD6798A74DD08C81FDA3E013D2B4706F5A76E07B7C8F1824EE63EEFECB3C074D5B0| |27389EA6D8556B456E91366B27878079E53A84A265B3B6C523B77B0C70D6E103A39| |7BE70BF8773F676E82FE6760FF06187C0A3E226D1767EFF2A0830FF58BC6DDF27E3| |419B76EF80BF33318F9046E926F2FE7EEDDC58E7C7BA0FF1F18E09DF773274E7287| |9648DBC7DABEEFA827B08FEE84C6C1C03BDCA420DFA49017A79525ED006B07E21C3| |7C68C401B8CF2AD1A61AD1EC32D8BF7946A906FDE20DF9008EFFD03AD85B9F761BD| |E15E9BD8265B9473455F09C36FE435F32D187FC3DC6272BD8F29448CE3C5F8DCBAE| |5C3974A7FFA89EB9BC2C3AC564375ABB13A4BBCCE325A6719ABB34CD75A22A83329| |1FFE2208290C9BADF9F0A557E7EC7A9730566AC6D76BC6BF692CF11EA50062EC1CD| |924C96F365E42C725C9E09F5AFF41F8EFD6FADF45EF46D6708EC99A5CD3F454E23C| |FE0FCEC2F9B0| |-------------------------------------------------------------------| Yeah this the one I am actually using.

I know the Alpha level shift applies at all times. Unfortunately you don't get the Incarnate only level shifts (that bring all pets up to you Incarnate level so 51-53). So in RWZ you should have level 49 tier 1s, level 50 tier 2s and level 51 Tier 3s. Anyway here is the latest build. Yes it +5s a lot of IOs, some probably give very marginal benefit but I do it anyway. Yes it is very expensive merit wise. | Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1574;759;1518;HEX;| |78DA65544B4F135118BD77664A9996D2228F82144A5BA0654AA71D752D898808528| |3167C2C0C19A1D09A9636ED34C2D2857FC08D2B4DDCB8746502BA334A108CFFC0F8| |DA18178AF1B1AE5FEFF7A54CD2499B73E7DCF33DEEB9F74E7AEB7CC7B3D97B538CF| |BA60B66B5BA9236AB56B652CC6FAE392F9B56AD6216183CEE8C655AF9D5914CAE64| |39E1DD7F2C5BC9D48AC5D2A6BE94AB6D548336FE5C6D7D5DCF58A54A9124F9CD0DE| |65E2C950AFA85427E236779C578216BAE652BD55CBEEC12EF997236BBE641594305| |518199727E55B7A54E9BAB59EA74BB1FDAD1E1FFDAC1E8A93BD83585314361D24DC| |2CF1263432A533E21B67FA4F7AF0D54585969C6C20F1EF606B2712E18993F013054| |D6F688F031A2EBBE24B2ABE0888C5A2EF7729CBB248BB93DC8E3A0CC8E10135C17E| |89DA47792BEDD8758854E549C73A834D74F73C33D8823C38051958D8611274288FB| |50C84D0EB86FE0CA3B960829B6937276B6C962E5FDEF710D61E8C9433D79E2B83E8| |DD082145ECC2B790F25C1F9DE11EE21BE85DA5D54BBEB08B913BF09FF20F6FCC55A| |7DFFD087BE03F48843ED6EF2A85BB82F03D38BDD48BD7E2EF66AE414AAA3862CB22| |9A0F19353FE4E72C8450EB9B9D0863A08BD889A07F100BA1D605CC40E5C47874E2E| |139EC56E03D3D86D601BB05B61C3DF411E555804EA0E52B7831F5023F5418BC40D9| |16B875023485C9076FE2E9408934BE12FB89EC814D68B904BA3FBC4BFC2BAA374CA| |B620768CD63B9640ED788A30899A715D228F0829760752C6B0AE12BB8A311319C22| |544ED0A626219635E404C9C7A8DEFE09A269F13EEE27A26C99BC437EC3941F55ECA| |78271BB1FA532E4E5A720EE79233A84D9AC81B45DC13E30EEEDD2E4CA7E824A6E8B| |41A747A032DF7546B61522D8CD1C29C6E61CEB4300B7646C5DED30D0E7BAB2F2A34| |84791E473F541F7C0990ABFF7035BF208C47D0B7A3638EF310FAD033CFC5B9FA69D| |7C730DF2FBBFE21F6107A80FB74CBD560B1D66DDBD8B48D176DE359ADB99EFA45DB| |785E6BDE85FA9CD6FC82D417E04A1A14FB1FF302FD75| |-------------------------------------------------------------------| Hits like an absolute train. Proc's all over the place. 350+ damage on the ST hold, 190+ damage on the AoE would be even more if I didn't have a -res in there but it's worth it. The +recharge in the tier 1 attack only need to proc every couple of minutes to be worth. Pets are softcapped Def to all of course (its why I like it over the Demon/Storm build). Ageless is 100% required to manage end use. You can be CCed and you have a psi hole but unlike Troller you can Immo enemies so it does not run out of AoE and does not rely on Containment for damage. This is a real 100% functional build I have on Excelsior. Need to finish +5 everything though.

All Ill/ Controllers are fine solo. Invincible pets plus defense buffs makes you pretty damn safe. The main issue on why on moved back to MMs from Trollers was: 1) Ill does not have a spammable Immo so enemies run out of your AoEs. 2) Outside of PA Ill is lacking in real game changing abilities. As a MM I can still cobble together an attacking chain from Patron Pools, Anc Pools and the odd MM attack. All while pets are putting put a solid 200+ DPS independently from me. Honestly a Demon/Storm or Thug/Storm can cross a 1000 DPS on a pylon fairly easily. I have just been too busy with other games to make a video and now I can't. Honestly it's not even close on ST DPS anymore anything MM/Storm is number 1. At work but I will post my latest setup that uses Burnout for a double Gang War, Lightning Storm and Tornado start. Could probably drop a pylon in 30 seconds.

So any updates on this?

It's awkward as all hell. You need to resummon pets WHILE the hybrid Incarnate is active. From then it works as normal until you zone or the pets die.

Achilles Heel proc does not stack in any way. So multi proccing that does not help. The -def procs are more interesting. Both Merc's and Thug Enforcers use them well too.

Hover (any kind of flight) basically reduces KB recovery time in half. Plus you don't get knocked flying.

Super Speed Pool has Hasten. It does not need any help. In fact a case could be made for Hasten to become inherant.

The other reason I like Defence is protection from CC. Frost is mentioning that how active you are in pet management might have an impact and I think that is true for me. I wanted my pet 'module' to work independantly while I focused on my /Storm and power rotation. I am wondering how much extra effort I will have to put into pet management if I go Demons over Thugs.

I don't use Ach Heel in the Henchmen themselves. Enforcers are too slot tight as is with +def, 2 x -def Damage procs and then regular damage slotting. Looking in Mids I just can't see how they can compare defensively. You get a 5% res shield from Ember Demon and a weak heal on a 30 second CD. My Enforcers basically give +17% DEF ALL between them. The difference is striking. It's not like Thug resists are bad either. They get +35% from Pet IOs as is. On a Bruiser thats already to enough to get him to 60% S/L with softcap Def. I hate resummoning my pets because unlike other MMs as a /Storm I have PLENTY of powers to spend my time on.

Is it really? I have my current Thugs/Storm all min maxed out and have taken a break from CoH. Making a new uber build would be fun. From messing around in Mids Demons seem a lot more restricted when it comes to procs. Bruiser can run KB damage proc very well while Enforcers can run 2x -def damage procs just as well. Thugs can softcap to all Def with Storm while Demons do not even get close.

Auto hit PBAoE is BS for last fight. Real pain as a MM.

IIRC Ach Heel proc can only appear once on a target so it does stack from difference players either.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The greatest change in the history of CoH.

My setup for base damage, set bonus, def buff and procs: Sup Mark of Ascendancy ACC/DAM/END Sup Mark of Ascendancy DAM Lotg +Def +5 Lotg +Def/+global REC +5 Shieldbreaker Lethal Proc Lady Grey Neg proc

Both Bots and Storm are very strong powersets. While Thugs has a slightly better synergy it's not that a big of a difference.

Honestly nothing is realyl useful in teams except MAYBE a tank (usually to help gather mobs). Players are so strong now that everything is almost completely a zerg fest to kill as many mobs as possible. Just keep two things in mind: 1. Have decent AoE and/or a good AoE debuff (-resist or immobilize to increase kill speed) and pretty much any endgame group will be happy with you. 2. Keep your pets from doing stupid stuff like aggroing extra mobs or blocking doors and caves. Sometimes you need to unsummon them. Hence why I like /Storm since I can kill stuff without needing pets.

Yeah made a toon using this months ago: | Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1574;750;1500;HEX;| |78DA65544B4F1351189D99B6946929E55128484B5B5E85299D7694B8250111416A8| |8C5D7C290110AAD6969D34E232C5DF807DCB8D2C48D4B5726A03B238868FC11BA31| |2E14E3633D7E9DF3A54CD2499B73E77CAF73CF9D99CCEEA58E978B0F6705B16BBEA| |8D76AEB19BD66E4AAA5C2CEA6FB9A6ED4AB7A51A0CB9B3574A3B011CDE6CB869BEE| |836769EBD97AA954DE51D7F2F5ED5AC4C6CFD5B7B6D4AC51AE9638A5B0B32D7857C| |BE5A27AB958D8CE1B7E6BBD92D33773D55ABE50F158F7D94A2EB7E9435A238BAA42| |0B95C2866A6B9DD13772AC746F80E4A8F47FE712F8325DC22DA720684E41BAC378E| |4B0D079086C7FCFF727C08AB3594B3FBA8443EA26827188CF093459687BCAF80CE8| |792459D53239E2B0924DD1D1272276159D8FA88F8B3BBB6282C57553BE1BF9929BF| |3DB7DC0A80758234532725C72A768D50D7880535E60C0071CF603A31DC0631AE865| |27BCB7E140C71A6300FD3B796E671BE90C53EFCFD8CB0869F3F15E7C09EC534940B| |7412DFCEC897F46B2625D17193F019347C00FA4A19B35749F82EBF9C3F81B18F88B| |99FDFFD0BFFFAB64699148432F7BD66B9D8683983E56D517A4455816A6CEF319522| |CC84E05D9A961762ACA4EC5D899183BA5B07327A472D03A67D33578130E9DBBC138| |0795A179A80CED11F652EFEF941E770A3D347788350DC5E0549C4F3840B130EF20C| |C4E7FA45911E6229CF780468DB04B235FB09FD159CC1D65B7C68E997F8BF963FCD4| |ED52ED38D78E6BC89D4833A69033A102E349F071AEDDA79693A89526AF233695052| |A6BC0D79493E0FE897DEC6FFA15E301F44FB327C96FD098E4FE6F1C78271BB5EA0B| |D13AD5D41262A905E4A674F05A0967A1DD874F07144EB3AF69F64EE3A736D4F29E2| |A2D4CBA85D15A980B2DCC4C0BB362676468CF34386833579DCD2F8420F21B2277D1| |97009CF9C3437191E3A3889F9E71A218830F63CBA2F53CFDB4E74F22FF973DFF093| |4C41EE37CEE7A1A2C66DDB3AD75DB7AD5B65EA1574AE3F5A2D2DC9B79C5B65E569A| |EF83B9A434BF22E67F3BA6FB0F| |-------------------------------------------------------------------| Should probably make a video of a pylon test. I know its DPS is well above my Ill/Storm and that build had 700+ DPS. Someone made a Demons/Storm that was almost 1000 and this build is a lot more min maxed then that. Didn't take Burnout since it is way too niche.

Once you hit Incarnate shifts all your pets are the same level anyway. I like Thugs due to good proc access and softcappable defence. Just taking them against Pylons and its a lot easier to keep a softcapped Thug build alive then a Demon one. The highest DPS secondary is /Storm and Thugs works a lot better with in then Demons.