Doomguide2005

Well dang the internet ate my earlier response. 3 Empaths is Green Machine territory. You will be a near unstoppable force on SOs alone. Defense will be soft capped by lvl 13 onward. You will laugh at mez. All mez no Sleep or Fear holes etc.. Adrenaline Boost comes online at 26th as a Defender. Between Hasten (+70%), slotting (~+100%) and Adrenaline Boost (+100%) you're all but perma-Hasten (275%). Day job or empowerment buffs and you're there (or almost any single set bonus for recharge like 1 LotG 7.5 increased recharge). PS: the recharge hard cap is +400% cutting recharge to 1/5th. So no the Auras are never perma. But they safely overlap so you should always be under the effects of at least one of each and often two. No more endurance worries. AB is perma but only 1. Standard GM buffing is you use AB on the next Empath on the team list (and Fortitude on the next two). Between AB and Regen Aura you'll be pushing the regeneration hard cap of 2000% ... the one shot rule, massive regen and your HA/HO damage will just vanish and you'll be nearly impossible to kill when you add in the rest of the buffs. Your To Hit buffs will mean you'll rarely miss even with no accuracy enhancement (~+90% for 3 GMs). And again for emphasis all on SOs. Sets and special IOs would just make for gravy and make things a bit less build strict. The only thing about a small team of all Empaths in no inherent regen debuff. It's coming from either pet(s), Envenomed Daggers or both. Without AVs can become a hopeless draw. They can't kill you and you'll have trouble putting them down especially in a reasonable time frame. But 3 buffed Shivans etc. is a whole other thing. Incarnates are again more high octane gravy (Lore pets and judgement nukes).

Heh, how about Immobolize, that's the anti track star mez (runs off to see if CoD has been updated for Arsenal). Wow no Immobilize ... that's a large negative in my book. Not enough to not try it out but ... And any Holds you do land are going to wear off with alarming speed. But yes the right team with the right powers could beat a +5 Mary reliably and without needing forever to do it (the more reliably and quickly the more 'hand picked' the team would need to become.

True but I hate to think about the duration of any control vs a +5 AV when you're level 34. Hey at least Taunt would be auto hit.

Yes with an Inferno and a pair of Fireballs going off each mob the mobs are going to vanish fast and generally while held with 3 overlapping Chocking Clouds locking them down. As for full Lockdown set a better range defense might be an investment in Fold Space. Bring anything at a distance in to join the other statues 😜. Don't overlook Rain of Fire either. I'll second the idea of maxing out both Hold and Endurance Reduction in CC though stacked AM should eliminate most endurance issues (you're also rapid firing your attacks). There's a thread in the Defender forums about a group running all RadEm/Fire with some posted builds that should be food for thought. Edit: Defender thread by @Bumguffyend of February 2023

It's darkest before dawn 😉

^This

Were you deliberately trying for ~56% melee defense. For me that's either a little shy of where I'd want to be for the Incarnate cap or quite a bit more than needed for the soft cap. Assuming your DDR is sitting at 95%+ that's over kill. You would need to be hit by over -100% defdebuff before even coming close to getting knocked under the soft cap. I'll have to look closer when I have access to my desktop for using Mids. Even the AoE is a bit higher than needed but getting a mere point or two less when everything else looks solid is very nit picky. Generally I'm shooting for 47, 48% defense. Even 48 is a bit of over kill. Your defense with that sort of DDR well you should last a very long time vs a horde of +4 Cimerorans while reading a paper. As long as you're mobile and attacking they have no hope of dropping you.

You have me curious to peek but I'm currently on my phone and can't open Mids.

Per CoD it does take the Time and Space Manipulation set (which contains a stealth IO) I usually slot in either Sprint or CJ. Which I use depends a lot on how endurance usage is on the character since I'll run either pretty much non-stop unless I have an escort mission where I'll toggle it off (which is fine since hostages tend to have a move speed one step up from walk 😉)

And I'll add a Kismet +6% as early on as can (~lvl 10 or so) frequently starting with 3 damage SO in my early attacks then add endred and acc as those start to suffer. May run a single DFB and grab acc or recovery depending on current needs. Particularly combined with Kismet i can wait a bit for actual Acc SOs.

I don't know. Have you seen the way some of them twitch and twirl after you arrest them. All too frequently while plastered into some force field barrier around the area

Kind of the point I was driving at. 7 is possible yes but I'm happy to keep 4 or so covered along with the rest of my buffs as appropriate. Usually perma AB is no problem as that's how GM's are expected to work when teamed (Fort the next 2 Emps and AB on the next in the team list). Granted the 'extra' ~100% recharge will come from global bonuses these days while not on a GM team (discounting Hasten typically as it's also a requirement of the build) but with set IOs never mind Incarnates that's really not an issue.

No not permanently. Well maybe you could do it for one cycle or so by using Burnout. But at the recharge cap the cool down is 60 sec. It would need to be about 45 seconds to keep perma on two targets. 7 Forts is doable but holy exhaustion. At the recharge cap Fort is ready in about 12 seconds and you need to cast it every 17 seconds to complete a cycle of 7 in Forts duration of 120 sec. Doesn't leave much time for anything else ... like CM, your Auras or AB to also be targeted and cast. Pretty sure this will require a very unusual amount of stay together discipline from your teammates to have the proverbial snowball's chance). All times are on the back of a napkin and lack all sorts of details like animation times, arcanatime etc., i.e. more math than my old brain can handle anymore.

So in otherwords you basically agree with my original position that HO/HA with other buffs is enough for the vast majority of the game's 'normal' content. That the real edge of AP's advantage is in the games hardest content i.e. hardmode and challenge AE content? PS: Already working on an alt build for my main Empath incorporating AP and intended for Hardmode and challenge content. PS 2: reminds that a long time ago my first GM had only HA ... SO only build with the bare beginnings of i9 IOs did fine until she tried to support the Tanker in the then brand new STF. Respec immediately followed adding HO. Wasn't until creating alt builds for the RWZ challenge in about i13 that I didn't include HO in my Empath build again.

Your data chunk is leading me to a Savage/Regen build not an Empath. My current thinking is I need to create a new Empath and level it up using AP and see how it plays different. After all the discussion I'm thinking 90% of this is play style differences most of which results in what you get used to you tend to be better at doing all other things the same. You level and become used to playing with AP and you are just less likely to get into trouble whereas when you don't you are more likely to find it problematic especially switching up after you've played many hours one way vs the other. A sort of self fullfilling feedback if you will.

Very end heavy indeed. It's easily one of the most end intensive builds I've ever leveled up. This is probably not the final build but It's a good place to start particularly while leveling prior to any Incarnate end cures Tine Sidhe FireSonic (v1.00 i27.6).mbd

I haven't really done this much on HC. Did some back on Live but pre-Incarnate. Soloing through Maria Jenkins with my Claws/SR scrapper but eventually I got bored beating sacks of hit points. I find fighting huge swarms of foes more interesting. The current version of my Claws/SR has solo'd several early TFC AVs but as pointed out they are not particularly difficult. My Emp/Rad has also solo'd a couple early TFC AVs. Both were Incarnates exemplared down. The 3rd who might be up for soloing AVs would be my Earth/Storm though I'm thinking she be much better at it from the 30's onward after she got Rocky and her later Storm powers. In addition to things like regen debuffs and Nihilii's 300 benchmark for dps I'd recommend for your ranged characters a way to immobilize the AV. Nothing will cut into your dps like chasing your foe all over the map.

There are an absolute ton of variables and subjective answers to the basic question(s) unwritten or otherwise in your post. Overall outside of the most difficult stuff in the game at post 50 with a t4'd incarnate very little is out of reach if anything. But in general I'd agree with the other posters in the thread and I wouldn't start with an Empathy defender. I say that as a fairly experienced player of Empathy knowing of several who have solo'd a +4/x8 ITF (think about a very well buffed t4 Lore pet with other company before you dismiss it out of hand).

Yeah about the only trouble I've ever seen in a small, all Empathy team, is AVs. No native way to reduce regeneration in particular. You need either Envenomed Daggers, pets for more damage or regen debuffs (Shivans etc.) and/or maybe multiple /Sonic or something outside of the primary basically to push it over the edge. And yeah the AVs really aren't going to take out an Empath in the duo if they keep the buffs rolling.

As stated I'm not afraid of using AP. I'd use it but the content in most of the game doesn't seem to require it so why subject myself to its debuffs. If my ally is dying while Fortitude, Clear Mind, RegenAura and perhaps Adrenaline Boost are running while I use HO/HA on them I'm more prone to think they are going to die anyway or the team needs to rethink its notoriety settings (or both) than AP and they'd be standing, HO and they wouldn't be. I'm also not afraid to say maybe I'm wrong about that let's work up a build including (and using 😜) AP and see what happens. I've also got about 4 runs in ☆ mode (1 Aeon duo and 3 8-man ITF) none of which were at 3 or 4☆ and were not run on one of my Empaths but mostly my t4'd scrapper so my experience in Hardmode content or PvP is certainly not a place to speak with knowledge about APs value in such content. I'd also say there's more than a few 'shiny' characters and sets out there so getting that actual build and time in might be awhile 😁.

High Defense. If it does not hit it does not mez in most instances. Defense Amplifier Mez them first. Including START Stun grenades. Stealth and target binds to spot them first. Breakfree inspires. Binds to convert inspires to Breakfree types Sorcery pool - Rune of Protection Combat Jumping vs Immobilize (also afaik Teleport abilities should move you around if the mez is Immobilize) Acrobatics vs Hold Mez resistance while it won't stop will shorten time mezzed. Pets from any source to draw fire both before mezzed and to draw them off you while you stand there realizing you don't have a breakfree 😳 Positioning and maneuvering. Pull and then end drain the crap out of them preferably while standing in one of your buff patches Swallow any pride you have and turn it down or otherwise adjust notoriety. Pull to elevators or doors. Even if held stunned and sleeping you can still click a door and most (not all) mobs will not chase you further. The only way my pre IO post nerfs Regen/Broadsword scrapper survived Sappers was tp foe and if she got zapped teleporting one was just this when her end bar vanished.

Well I might experiment in an alt build but in general it is not a trade off I'm willing to make on my Empaths. Too much given up for me to due extra damage when the team could be doing so through my buffs. I'm quite satisfied to let loose with a Spirit Drain boosted Atomic Blast which if it doesn't kill stuff outright leaves them all running their version of a hold animation while quickly getting picked off by Fortitude and Assault buffed teammates at minimal risk of return fire.

Having been on many Green Machine teams i can definitely vouch for the utter overkill 8 Empaths will become. Do you need accuracy. Not even close to need. At 8 Incarnate level GMs normally enhanced your overkill is in overkill as in if the foe was at the Tanker defense hard cap of 225 you'll need roughly each Empath to stack 5 Fortitude a piece and with no accuracy enhancement at all your final to hit will be 95%. Many GMs at the recharge levels we'll reach can readily cast 5 Forts across the team each if my quickly done napkin math is correct (8 Tactics +144 To Hit + each additional Fort another +18 To Hit). Which brings me to @Sovera's comment above. My friends and I did what she described. By the low 20's (you know that distant nearly impossible level to reach) we were obliterating +4/×8 Arachnos in Faultline up to and including Arbiter Sands and other AVs. There were just 5 of us. 1 Scrapper DM/WP and 4 Defenders. 1 each Dark Miasma/Archery, a Dark/Dark, a Cold/Dark and a Sonic/Dark (yes we weren't intending a superteam merely a team themed around Dark power sets and ...). We were our own worst enemy as it turned out. We bored ourselves to death and as a team we didn't get past 30th. I think only my Sonic/Dark reached 50.

It's been awhile. You can accuse me of wondering if the stripes still match but hoping maybe .... *sigh*

I haven't really delved into procs (as in proc centered builds) much but Rad blast is certainly well set for it and keep telling myself I need to explore it with 1 of 3 builds. On my Emp/Elec while I'm slotting for damage first I'm usually also pushing the -endmod and -recovery particularly with the AoEs after all the faster the shocked condition comes up the better. Easier these days with the newer endmod sets. But I'm also paying even more attention to the -recovery than the -endmod. The drain seems to occur but keeping them flatlined is really where I'm looking to be.