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Hi, this is my last reply about this and you're welcome to reply and continue if you'd like but I'd rather not keep talking in circles. Because in an 8 man team, ideally you would only want 1 person handling the tanking. If you want to do another job, play a different AT. This doesn't mean you -have- to follow this because you don't. I've done TF's filled with nothing but brutes/tanks and it went just fine. Changing the tank to be something other than a tank is just silly. We're here to discuss improving tanker utility. If the admins don't have the time to read the post then It's whatever. Tankers as a whole are mostly fine, they just in my opinion need something to set them apart from other ATs capable of tanking. My suggestion for doing so has been stated a couple of times. If you'd like to discuss how those specific changes could help, I'll be more than glad to expand my position on the change otherwise I have little interest in arguing semantics or opinion on other classes.

Difference in opinions aside, I would appreciate it if we could stop the circle arguing and go back to the point of the post as Total said. Increase tank aggro cap to roughly an extra mob in size. Increase their - range to 95% or if possible cause enemy AI to move into melee range when taunted. (I think someone mentioned would be better to do the 95% over 100% for how the game AI works)

I was replying to you about their damage/radius by letting you know I don't have much input on that matter since...you were quoting me? The only other thing i said was my reply was made in error. so...? cool They were designed to be tanks. Until the day coh died. You misquote me as implying "Designed" means specifically conceptualized so neat job there i guess. You're right, they weren't designed to be tankers. It's super weird when i select "Tank" it has brute listed but ok. WoW and CoH couldn't be further apart. Your pretend fantasy they are similar because they have the class roles of "tank" is strange.

For the record, i started at the very start but that's completely irrelevant to how the game plays now. So lets take a step back from what you're driving at here. The two descriptions given for the tanker class upon selection. Since you need a source of how it's intended to be played. - Good mitigation - Meant to soak up the majority of incoming attacks - Works well with soloing or in teams These are the base descriptions for selecting either a brute or tank. Literally in the descriptions, Meant to soak up the majority of incoming attacks. It is not a misunderstanding of the class or an RP element of the class It's the description. Furthering when you get specific in the selection, it mentions - Lack of range - Absorbing mass amounts of damage - Hold own in a fight From these three , you can assume the role of the tank specifically wouldn't be damage or range capabilities but instead a focus on absorbing damage while also helping in the fight. The "How to tank" doesn't tell me anything i didn't already know, what it doesn't say is any nonsense like "Flow of damage". You're trying to over complicate a rather simple game and It's unnecessary just like many of the changes you purposed. The tanker EPP's already offer a variety of range/AOE/Debuff/CC abilities to enhance the class. Furthering, with incarnate abilities you gain another strong AOE/Cone/PBAOE. It's nearly impossible in a within-aggro limit fight to pull aggro from the tank, how to tank or the purpose of a tank was never in discussion and I'm not sure why you've hijacked the discussion to make it this with again over-complex descriptions of a rather simplistic system. City of Heroes, regardless of its past is now at the point in which any class can softcap def to certain things and effectively tank a mob by themselves. The topic here was/should be about how to improve tanker utility. Telling you repeatedly the very basic systems of this game is getting old, if you want to start your own thread to push your own ideas i suggest you do so. It wasn't ever any 1 video but ok. Irrelevant, we're discussing current build. A good 8 man team wouldn't have 2 tanks. You don't even need 1 tank at the moment and if you did have another tank, it'd only be there to grab additional aggro. My new band name is snarky comments that don't contribute anything to the conversation and make people uninterested in discussing things with you. I'm not drawing some kind of hard conceptual line I'm pointing you to the literal line. You're arguing the semantics of terminology instead of furthering any kind of discussion. It doesn't matter what you want to call jumping into a mob and taking aggro. A tankers entire job is to absorb hit and keep aggro. Stop trying to over-complicate it.

It isn't a problem because they were designed to be tanks. People seem to forget villains didn't have access to the tank AT for a very long time, nerfing them now just because they do would raise the same problem but against scrapper/stalkers/brutes. Also the damage was more of a side comment ;) This is exactly why the form of control I'm looking to improve is their mob attention and positioning :P I don't have much issue/thoughts about the damage they do or the radius to be honest. Also, my comment about "changing sets" was made in error as they clearly can. WoW and City of Heroes are night and day, comparing them or considering anything WoW does as a standard is silly. It was added to help them :P however as the game continued to grow, it probably needs some additional help which is why i made this thread in the first place. Ways to improve gauntlet and general tanking utility. They might of always had gauntlet, just wasn't visible/named. I forget TBH.

Your idea on how City of Heroes is suppose to function is...odd? I'll try and offer you a different view here so you can see where I'm coming from. For the sake of clarity we're going to refer to "Tanking" as Absorbing and keep the term Tank tied to the class. The "Alpha Strike" Is usually absorbed by an absorbing class, Brute/Tank, However with IO's this can easily be done by any class if you've built well enough for the most part and isn't really a deciding factor as much in late game play. In earlier game it certainly is handled by the absorb of the team but early play is a different animal to late-game play and trying to balance for the early can often have adverse effects on late game. In early play, empathy can be useful enough as healing is still pretty important while in end game healing isn't as needed as debuff/buffing. "funnel" is an optimal way to down a mob as quickly as possible often used in herding. Not everyone herds, though it certainly can speed things up. If you look at the base way the game was intended to be played, the mob itself isn't really meant to be dragged as much as its meant to be handled where its at. The re-positioning of a mob is usually reserved for speeding through content and not as much done in normal play even in incarnate trials, the most dragging you see is done in BAF where you reposition Seige/Nightstar. The reason for this is simple mobs usually just don't live long enough for this to matter. It's actually why i suggested giving tanks the -range increase to try and group them better where they stand. "Multiplication" Is the strangest way I've seen this grouped to date. What you're referring to is a wide range of support. Buff/Debuff/Healing/ and where my confusion for your tanker ideas comes from. I'll try and break it down in specifics. Also for the sake of time i'm going to leave out kheldians/VEATs. Control - Ability to immob/hold/stun/sleep the mobs. De/buff - Ability to -regen -def -res -maxhp -tohit or give positive of theses Healing - Give the big HP. The ability to control a mob is usually left in the hands of Dominators/Controllers, with controllers have the extra benefit of de/buff/healing at the cost of damage while dominators have the added benefit of damage ontop of de/buff. They do all of these well and have clear defined roles similar to blaster/scrapper/stalker being damage when it comes identity, while Defenders/Corrupters primarily have stronger de/buff/healing with the stronger damage/buff/healing trade off. Then you come back around to Brutes/Tanks. Brutes have a very clear identity, they deal strong damage while maintaining aggro of the mob. Their more bruiser focus makes them come out on top of the tanker as not only can they absorb everything the tanker can they can fill a damage roll. Tankers are not meant to fill the control roll of the game. They were specifically intended to fill the absorb portion of the game as brutes did not exists. What you were referring to in the old Ninja/Wolf/Striga farms was usually done with the support of another class and was also not ever intended to be how the game was played. Pulling the entire map was a terrible design flaw (While still being incredibly fun) and lead to the devs changing how the game functioned entirely to prevent. I'm not entirely sure where you were given the idea that tankers should ever fill the control roll but that is not their intended game play style. The tanker was meant to be the guy who jumps into trash mobs and maintains aggro while his team handled the rest and when time came, handled positioning and absorbing of AVs/Monsters. With the addition of villains we saw this role handled by a more brutish ( ;) ) type of character and eventually IO's made them on par absorb wise with the tank class. The only thing that sets them apart is 300 HP and a lot of damage. Sure the tanker has a slight advantage over the brute in terms of passive AOE taunt on attack but it isn't much in the way of a difference in actual play. Changing the role of a tanker to fill the control aspect is a poor way to improve the class. Tankers are decent as is and many people enjoy them thoroughly, adding more AoE to the power set seems like a play to change their role. I'm going to try and break down your list as to why this would fundamentally change the tanker too much. While it would certainly make the class a hybrid and probably pretty fun for different reason, it would violate the design method behind the class. While the idea of introducing a new effect on hit is interesting enough and could probably be repurposed into aggro/range doing so to give them a control effect is unnecessary. Mobs already get absolutely destroyed by a well adjusted team not to mention an IO'd/incarnated team. The only mez taunt needs to give is what it already does...taunted. It directly forces enemies to change target away from whatever they were attacking, this is incredibly strong as a pseudo mez effect. This is also where my idea to improve this effect specifically for tankers comes from and it would give them a stronger "Tanker" identity. Also you can add damage with a proc ;) Tankers were designed with the needed AoE/single target attacks in mind to keep aggro of wide-spread mob and single target with relative ease. Removing single target attacks in favor of additional Aoe would just increase their damage overall to wide-spread mobs which already get obliterated in team-play. You could make the case for indivdual sets needed their Aoes improved like Ice Melee or Energy manipulation but thats not whats being discussed here specifically and also doesn't apply to every set. Just including this again to say i agree with you and meltdown is again a good example of it. The tanker EPPs do actually have the option for additonal AoE including AoE immobs, AoE damage abilities like fireball/icestorm. Giving them team-wide buffs seems a tad unnecessary considering a team should/would usually have someone who already does that and often times multiple people. I'm not sure why you keep trying to push the idea the tanker needs to be able to buff/mez/nuke as that is against the tankers identity and wildly makes them stronger when they don't really need to be a jack of all trades. My entire idea was centered around the idea of the tanker identity. Tanking. Their primary role in this video game is to jump in, grab aggro, reposition mobs/avs, and do some damage. The best way i can see to improve this identity past that of a brute would be to increase the utility of their tanking ability. Larger aggro cap, stronger -range. Their damage does not need to be that of a brute/scrapper to help them in viability. This game isn't really setup for them to need to mez/do more damage outside of niche examples like soloing team oriented content or AVs. Which to be honest with you is just ego-stroking and should not be considered while making balance passes. This game is balanced at the SO level for a reason. You seem to have a misunderstanding of the class and its role in the game. I hope any of what i said helps bring you up to date on where tankers are and need to be. You do really need to take other classes into account for a lot of things as most of them were designed around the others. CoH is a very team centered game and trying to make any one class good at too many things is counter to that as you start a chain of "Why bring this when you could have this" which is why we're here talking about how to improve tanks in the first place.

I think I have a fundamental misunderstanding of what you're trying to say here. Could you perhaps expand on why you're comparing tanker against controllers?

I'm just gonna repaste crims response to the other guy to you. Thats really all that can be said about the whole "brutes aren't tanks" thing. This isn't the problem at all. Brutes being a tank alternative isn't the problem and never has been. The problem is with tanks not having true tanking utility over brutes. They don't need any help getting aggro and they don't need to do more damage either. They aren't bruisers and weren't design to be. This is why i believe the best course of action is to increase their aggro limit and give them more -range. Like i said in the OP, the ability to aggro more than anyone else and position mobs without needing to LoS would set them far above anyone else in tanking ability. Control is the job of support characters. Reworking sets is likely out of the question ATM, they also don't need to be brought up in damage as the Tanker is not a brute. Meltdown is a good example of this, the CoH Devs were going to rework all Godmodes but never got the chance. This is pretty much why i suggested raising the -range to 100%. It'd be a rather strong positioning tool and increase the tanks utility by a ton.

Sorry but no they don't soft cap by themselves. This is base without any IO sets and being generous with 10 stack invinc. The above post did a fantastic job of explaining everything else hope it helps you.

I'm not entirely sure how else to tell you that you're objectively wrong. I guess you could be shown in game? I dunno man. Earlier today not even 2 hours ago i watched a brute without a healer tank 3 54+2 AV's and not die at all. Brutes are extremely good tanks. How exactly do you think villains did anything before tanks could be villains?

I'm not sure what kind of brutes you've been playing with but they aren't a good rep of what brutes can do. Brutes are the preferred tanks in most content. Stone tank is an entirely different problem all on its own that even these changes won't fix. Tanks also don't hold aggro any better than brutes can, taunt pretty much makes sure of that. Kheldians have a lower res cap than brutes/tanks so unless you're min/max'd to have perma light form you'll be worse off than a brute and do far less damage. The main point of this change is to set tanks apart from brutes more than just their HP and a little extra resistance. City of Heroes is balanced around SO and in the SO based content, brutes and tanks are interchangeable when it comes to tanking ability and it gets worse when you include IO sets. This was never a problem until you could have both on either side. This change would only add utility to the tank to make it feel like "The main tank" as opposed to a tank. Also, soft cap def is soft cap def. You can't be better at only getting hit 5% of the time than another tank :P and in team play and end game content, neither of them die at all for the most part. So dying less than the other guy doesn't die is pointless. This is a utility change to make tanks have more tanking utility than their brute friend while still keeping brutes perfectly capable of tanking. Lowering the brute to the tank level is not the right decision. Fury does a solid job in setting it apart from the other classes and makes brutes really enjoyable and unique to play. Tanks just need some change to have the same feeling. Something that will set them apart from everything else and i feel this change would do that and make tanks untouchable when it comes to tanking utility as opposed to now where tanks preform the same as their villain counterpart but do less damage.

Even on the SO scale, in a team they certainly can/do/have. With buffs/debuffs or even just full damage they tank just as well as a tank in SO based content. The change wouldn't effect other classes ability to do anything just bring more appeal to the idea of a tank. This was more targeted at full team play rather than solo concerns. It has nothing to do with mobs spawned, more the tanks ability to control mob position/aggro beyond that of a brutes capabilities. Being a Tank should mean more than slightly more HP and less damage. Being able to actually hold more mob aggro than any class and position in where needed would bring a lot of appeal to the Tank over the extra damage of a brute for tanking. Basically just make this stronger :-)

Tanks for a long time now have kind of taken a back seat in a lot of content to brutes. A well built brute can tank as well as tanks and do more damage, so people usually prefer them over tanks at end game especially. My idea for a change would be to how tanks handle aggro to increase their role as "Tank" while leaving brutes unchanged. 1) Increase tank specific aggro cap to roughly an extra mob in size. This would allow for them to grab everything and anything else someone accidentally pulls. :Clarification: By "Mob" I mean the an entire extra group. Not a singular person. 2) Enemies taunted by the tank rush into melee regardless of their preferred range. You can already do this with pulling/Los but It'd give tanks a great utility over a brute in terms of tanking ability/mob positioning. This could probably just be done by making the -range on their passive taunt/taunt ability to be 100%. Edit: People seem to be misunderstanding the purpose, this has little to do with tanking power and more tanking utility. These changes wouldn't make it any stronger, just add extra utility to the tank as a tank. No changes would be made to their HP or damage.

Recluses Victory Flavor of the month: (-649.0 0.0 61.8) Paragon cities favorite spot to celebrate cinco de mayo. It's in front of the El Super Mexicano. FotM and PvP go together better than cookies and milk ;p