Ukase

Very true, very true.

Oh my. Funny how fun to some folks sounds like masochism to others, lol. I can actually see forgoing the heal on a rad defender, as it's a fairly small heal, like 15%, with noticeable end usage when fighting (before you've hit 50 and are all decked out). And there are some good set bonuses for regen, too, so it may not be as bad as I think, once you get to level 22 or so.

I've looked at a number of builds where the poster will think their build is top notch, only to realize the endurance recovery is too low to be of any real utility unless they're using the recovery serum from p2w, and/or ageless, or relying on team buffs. I finally found a way to realize the shortcomings of these builds before actually building them - noting the "misc. effects", where Recovery is contrasted with End drain. I aim for 2.00/s more recovery than end drain. This build isn't quite there, as we can see. But, +2 let's me fight with sprint and Superspeed on. So, in missions, I can turn off SS or sprint and be okay. Call me crazy, but I hate turning off toggles. Even sprint or SS. I will, if I have to, but I'd rather just keep them on. My tanks, I'll turn it off to keep the threat level higher, but the rest...I aim to keep them on. Just one less thing I have to be concerned with if I make the build properly. So, I keep tinkering until I can keep the defense numbers high and improve the end recovery.

Huh? Mender Remiel - complete his arc and unlock your Alpha slot. Granted, it doesn't confirm your +1, it's an option used to buy-in to begin the incarnate journey. The story arcs in Dark Astoria, and/or the iTrials (or farming your way with vet levels) - do result in awards that are of real benefit. Alpha, Judgement, Interface, Lore, Destiny, Hybrid - are all "awards" and all have value. Some are more situational and useful than others. And opinions will vary about their utility. I don't see how what's available now isn't what you state you're waiting for.

Not sure if serious...

So...a thought occurred to me. They often do when my mind is left unsupervised. Anyway, I'm on one of my project characters where I try to subsist off what the rng blesses me with. I'm going without 2xp because, well, I'm gonna need the influence, since borrowing from my alts would make things too easy. And, well, that'd be spending influence when I'd rather accumulate it. So, I'm level 26, and I got the Celebrity badge. When I use p2w for 2xp, I would earn this at 50. So, now that I realize I've gotten this at 26, I am thinking, surely I've gotten this earlier than 26 before. But I don't really pay attention to stuff like this. But what if I did? Celebrity (or Bling, or Who's Who) is awarded when you earn 500k influence. Any level 50 would tell you that's chump change. From marketing some drops, I made that much at level 10. But, what if I set out to see how soon I could get it? The lower the level, the lower the inf earned per npc defeat. Getting defeated past level 10 slows the leveling process a tiny bit. But, without turning off XP, how early could you get it? Or, rather, how early can I get it? If I use my marketing savvy to acquire the usual trinity of PvP IOs for my build, the kismet accuracy, the steadfast 3%, the kb protection if on a character that needs it, I can probably accept challenges that are more difficult a little sooner, and possibly get it sooner. So, that's going to be a challenge for my next character or two. To see how soon I can get it. Other challenges: drop challenge - no AH, no teaming, only slot what you can get from drops, but you are allowed to convert drops..you just can't buy converters (but you can use them from merit vendors) Delete upon defeat. (It's tough because end mod enhancement and recipes rarely drop!) Iron Man (I think) - SO enhancements only, delete upon defeat. I suppose one could try playing the entire game without enhancements, but that just seems really, really crazy. Any other odd-ball challenges you guys like to try?

Don't confuse people with logic.

Great minds thinking alike!

So, thanks for the replies. I can only assume I'm missing more, so am attacking more. Regarding slotting stamina with 3 slots....um...almost never. Certainly not at level 12. And I'll tell you why - this level 12, low endurance situation is temporary. Once I get the miracle +Recovery slotted and Atlas Medallion (around level 20), there's really never an endurance issue again. I'm one who is inclined to use SOs because of the higher % boost than set IOs before level 30, but I'll use the pvp IOs, Kismet Accuracy, Steadfast 3% in most every build and have them in asap. The return on 3 slotting stamina is probably worth if you're using SOs, but using IOs, with all the endurance recovery, and endurance discounts, and the passive accolades...3 slotting would be more end than I'd likely ever need.

For me, without exception, the worst sound in this game is that stupid yell from the Legionarii (I think that's who's screaming) in the ITF. It is a big part of the reason I try to avoid doing that ITF unless I have a very clear reason to run it. I liken it to fingernails on a chalkboard.

To answer the first question...it depends on how you define "better for the game economy". First, we must choose if we want a lot of goods available for purchase. It usually stands to reason, the more good there are, the cheaper they will be, as a bountiful supply generally satiates demand, with goods left over, making those goods more affordable for the other players. Do cheaper goods suggest a "better" game economy? I'm pretty sure most folks who buy those goods would say yes. At least, it's good for them. For the sellers..maybe it's better if the goods are higher priced. As a rule of thumb, I will vendor the common (referred to by many folks as "white") salvage. The uncommon (yellow) I almost always sell on the AH due to the shenanigans that tend to occur in the niche. So, I can usually make more than I would from the vendor. It's not really enough to be worth the time to put it in the AH, but it will at least be cheaper than it would be otherwise. I know the devs have seeded uncommon salvage at 100k, but I don't think it should ever be more than 2k, which is why I sell it for less than 2k. If I get more, great. If I get less, that's okay too. I will vendor all common IO recipes. It makes almost no sense to ever craft them unless there's a badge to be had, as they sell for less than the crafting cost in most cases. I will also vendor all the SOs, unless it's a special challenge character. But typically, SOs after level 30-35 are just trash, and I have IOs in place before then, so they're trash to me. Vendor 'em, get 'em out of the way.

I earned my influence. I am supposed to be able to influence things, that's why it's called influence. Don't you realize that's why they scrapped the initial change out of AE and downgraded to the lesser no emp to reward merit exchange? I used my influence. It was a lot of influence! I had to panic farm for about 5 days to make enough! And, no, none of that is true, but what if it was?

I'm not sure I understand you. Incarnate powers may fix problems a character has had, but those are problems the player has allowed to continue to exist. This is not a problem that existed since level 1 because of a design flaw in the game, it's a design flaw of your build. Players should try to learn, to recognize how their character plays, and to choose powers and slots that will help the character for the next levels. As an example: DPS seems to be something most characters strive for, whether it be in pursuit of set bonuses, damage procs, global recharge, and slotting recharge within the power itself, taking hasten and other options. But they do this at the expense of slotting end mods and/or end reduction enhancements. It's a lot like chess, when you move a piece to try to gain control of the center of the board, you lose control over another portion of the board. Or, if you like - Rock, Paper, scissors. When you choose Rock, watch out for the paper. IOs can cover up a lot of holes in a build if you plan them properly. Most who PL to 50 or a certain point beyond 12 don't really notice this, but at level 8-10, a character can run sprint and even Super speed while fighting and really have no end issues, despite only having maybe a single end mod enhancement, or maybe even nothing in it. But around that time, brutes and tanks get a second armor, and begin to full the end recovery struggle. Some folks get hasten in that level range, and make the problem worse. More recharge means more attacks. Each attack uses endurance. If the end use of your attacks and toggles outpace your end recovery, again, that's not a game design flaw. It's a build design flaw. The invention system has a lot of IOs to assist with endurance issues. Similar things can be said about defense or resistance. Blasters get beat down fairly often because they think it's all about dps. And it is - but there's a balance between chaos and order, and each player should try to find their own balance between the two. (Chaos is dps, order is defense & resistance)

Fair point. AA had an interesting method in determining this. Since America's Angel's numbers were based on optimal play, it makes sense to look at optimal play from those who run tfs and such. I know for a fact that a fairly decent speed run time for apex and tin mage are 10 minutes each. So, just taking the 80 merits, and making the exchange to converters, you can extrapolate from there on what the take home is. (as I did in a previous post) Some choose to add the conversion time into the equation, and fair enough. The numbers (as expected) show the speeders will outearn an afk farmer. And they might out-earn 2 afk-farmers. I think it pulls even with 3. I'd have to scroll up and look at the numbers. The active farmer, I dunno. I see Angel America's numbers, and consider them to be an outlier, but it's fair to say 10 minutes for apex and 10 for tin mage are also outliers, so may as well try to compare apples to apples, figuratively speaking. The active farmer will out earn the speeder. I am of the opinion that all of this is irrelevant. HC devs are gonna do what they're gonna do. Not to say they won't see if we have a point, but I think they've been planning the change for some time based on information they have. For now, they're going with doing away with the emp to reward merit conversion, presumably because of these potential violators of exchanging cash for inf, as has been discussed previously. Or, it could be that, and not wanting someone like me to get free converters with emp merits. And while I'd rather be able to do that, they have their reasons, and it's free to play...so how pissed off should I really be? Not very. My biggest disappointment is in the player that frowns upon people who farm. I mean, really? Seriously? I fully understand how a new player, getting farmed up with little or no knowledge of the game can screw up a team mission or TF. I certainly understand that frustration and annoyance. But it's like punishing everyone for the actions of a few. (or even several or many) Most of us have got anywhere from 20 to 200 level 50's all decked out and t-4'd. We get tired of some of the lower level content (me, it's kind of the opposite. I'm super tired of Tina McIntyre and Maria Jenkins. I've been trying to get those accolades at level 30 or earlier so I can just go to red side and re-experience some of those arcs because I'm not nearly as bored with those yet. Now, when I say "punish", I'm referring to the players who look down on farming, not the HC devs. These snobs are just plain mean, some of them. And some want us to just leave the game so they don't have to hear us chiming in lfg. It's almost as if they're miserable, and won't feel better until they make everyone else miserable. Gee, thanks. Just what we all needed. Just two days ago, I had to verbally expose an idiot in lfg chat who literally told the lowbie looking for a spot in AE farm "Stay out of lfg. Go to AE and chat in local. This is for people looking to team up." It was just the height of condescension. If I'd been in front of that person, I would like to think I would have just slapped the taste out of their mouth for being such a tool. That's really just me posturing behind a keyboard, lol. I'm old enough to know better than to slap someone for saying something stupid. But I sure felt like it!

On that, I think we can all agree, it's interesting. So, to sum up, I think this is where we're at: The proposed changes will likely go through. The scalability of afk-farming gives it an edge over pretty much anything - but, since there's only an initial barrier to entry, which every player has gone through, there's really not a true advantage for anyone. But, if the idea of it simply irks, or disgusts, or annoys , or whichever description one chooses, it puts them in a place where they feel like in order to keep up, they have to do something they don't really want to. It seems to me that the HC devs are listening to that, and would rather the farmers instead do things they would prefer not to do. At least, that's how it seems to me, based on reading the anti-farmer part of the debate in this thread. I believe afk-farmers and farmers alike will adapt, most likely within AE. If I/we/they make a little less per minute, it won't be the end of the world. And the addition of reward merits to the various iTrials will certainly boost the speed runner beyond what most afk farmers who only run 1-2 farmers will take in. At least, that's what I think. Only time will really tell. I have learned a bit about some of you in this thread. I have learned that some of you are decent folk, even if I disagree with your position. I have also learned that some of you are ...well, stubborn and don't seem to want to look at other perspectives except through your own doom-colored lenses. I honestly don't even know why I'm still typing, lol. I have a level 22 ice/fire brute that I'm leveling up, without any 2xp buffs, and building off of drops, and using converters to fund the way through. (although I did have an alt help me with invader, cuz I'm not about to run 5 radios and a bank mission 8 different times. I want merits to keep funding my way through, while my billions sit idle and basically removed from the economy - until such time the HC devs slap in a tasty inf sink for me. Or allow us to give away temp powers like work benches and such.

They can scroll up and read your quick thoughts. I agree with everything you stated could happen. It might take a little longer, but it would likely happen to some degree. Just my opinion, and they'll vary. But you did a good job expressing it.

ToS violations are probably what's gotten the devs attention on this whole farming thing. So, certainly any discussion of how such things are done are best left in the shadows. Seed22 just quoted that you, AA, and there's a rad/fire build you shared. It's commonly known that rad/fire, due to irradiated ground has a tiny edge over spines/fire. My data was presented with spines/fire, and I believe CoyoteDancer and others were not even using brutes. While your numbers are useful, and valid, they cannot be presumed to be the only numbers to consider, but as I stated earlier, just one set to consider in the data.

I have never been told anything of the sort. But, I take everything with a grain of salt. Even what you just shared. It is the internet, after all. Believe only half of what you see, none of what you read. Fortunately, all these grains of salt have been shown to not cause high blood pressure if there's a lot of water consumed with it at the same time. It's about the bolus and timing.

Somehow I missed that, thanks for pointing it out. So essentially 20 minutes for both Apex and TinMage, with 80 reward merits, 240 converters, when used properly...that's on average about 20 IOs converted for sale. (a lot of variation, due to rng - RNG is a fickle mistress sometimes. Anecdotally, I burn about 10 converters per IO to get something worth selling for 3M. Please bear in mind, that I've converted 10's of 1000's of IOs. I craft and convert if necessary, every uncommon or rare. I submit that 10 converters per IO IS an average that be trusted if you're converting 1000's of IOs over time, not just a couple dozen. Over time, those are my anecdotal results. I also submit the point that not every player will recognize the best time to convert in category or out of category.) Yomo and others say it's 15. But many of them also convert in the level 30 and under category, which skews the number higher due to more undesirable sets being an option to convert into. Since you use a level 50 tf, presumably level 50 recipes would be used for the most part. That's roughly 60M, so 6M per minute, give or take a smidge. Seems about the same to me. I probably am missing something, but can't see it right now. Gotta jet!

Appreciate the clarification. Still, I maintain using it - unless in a pvp zone or to escape defeat in a master run isn't/wasn't exploitative. It was a nifty tool. Thankfully, when you guys yanked it, you didn't leave us empty handed.

And that is where you fall short of the mark. You cannot assume this. Why? Because only a minor percentage will reach optimal set up. I, for one, would NEVER (unless it was Nemu or another player I trust) trust a build from the forums as being more optimal than my own build. (although if your numbers are accurate, clearly it's better at active farming than my afk farmer is at active farming) Perhaps this is why pvp is set up so abysmally. Some of you design what you think is balance around optimal play, without realizing that 90% of the players do not pursue optimal play. Some wouldn't know it until they saw it. Some wouldn't know it if they saw it. Some can't afford it. Some are too busy looking for fun and can't be bothered with it. The list goes on. Good decisions are not based on what is best for some players, today. They are based on not just what's best for me, but what is best for everyone. And not just today, but tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, 5 years from now. We dare not assume optimal play. And if we do assume optimal play for farmers, we must also assume optimal play for the non-farmer. Let us do a deep dive into players like Stitch, Bloodom, Veracorp, Elmyder...let us consider how many reward merits those players earn in a given unit of time, and their influence, and then compare that to the farmer, and assume each reward merit is worth 1 million dollars, because when exchange them into converters, that's pretty much what you're going to get when you use the converters instead of selling them. But good luck with that. I think they are too smart to reveal such things. Pretty sure a couple of those guys don't even bother counting their loot, it would take too long.

Sorry, bud, but you're not just wrong, you're completely wrong! Let me explain: Ever notice those nifty tips while you load into a zone? THAT is where the SG base macro came from! Not the syntax, but the tool tip explained you could drop into an sg base from anywhere once you set up the pass code. That tip is still active, and if they weren't so random, I'd be logging in and out of missions to try and capture it to prove it to you. How do you think that became available? A pigg farmer? No, a Dev shared the information on a twitch or youtube stream, and other players shared it. It was never an exploit. It worked by design. They took it away because some players used it improperly, to escape defeat in Master of TF runs, and perhaps defeats in PvP. It was never an exploit until someone exploited the way it could be used. Me using it inside of the mission, when the mission completed was never an exploit. It was a handy time saver! Instead of loading into the zone map where the mission was in, and then zoning into my base to go to the next mission, I could skip loading into the zone, saving me some 20-30 seconds. Adds up when you're trying to speed! Marketers do use influence - to buy stuff, generally improve it and relist. There are some crappy marketers who think items should be higher priced and buy a crap ton of one thing, and relist it at a higher price. These are not my favorite people. They make it harder on the new player and I tend to look down on them as unsavory players. You cannot say "as America's Angel has shown", because AA has only shown AA's experience on Brainstorm, not on live. Two entirely different scenarios. AA's numbers are no more valid (or invalid) than any other set of numbers shown, primarily because they assume everyone will use the 2 builds they posted. That is not the case. It is just one case. I will grant you that rewards from AE farming is likely better for some players, but there are players like Bloodom, Stitch, Bright Phoenix, and others who make a ton of reward merits per unit of time - far more than any farmer will, even with the emp merit to reward merit conversion. And they make a damn good amount of influence, too. We dare not assume that because a few farmers do nothing but farm and do it well that their results are typical, and then compare them to an average player. There are many above average players that will out-perform the average player in accumulating influence and reward merits. And the aforementioned players (and a host of others) likely out-perform many afk and active farmers. So many of you look at your own influence earnings and assume your results are typical. I promise you, they are not. You're probably average. Whereas, you compare yourself to above average farmers and find yourself lacking. I look at my numbers compared to AA's and I find my farmers lacking, too! So please, don't spew out these statements which assume facts not in evidence. In summary, just to state the facts: All of us are different. Some will earn influence faster than others. Some of us will earn more reward merits than others. Some of us like to earn it one way. Some of us like to earn it in other ways. There is no right way. There is no wrong way. (unless you're stupid enough to pay real world money for influence. lol, you must be stupid to do that!) I will make more from marketing than from farming. Yet, I'm allowed to continue marketing, raking in the influence hand over fist with no risk at all. But that damn farmer..he's got to repent and change his ways. You've lost your mind. Your internal bias is impacting your thinking. Re-think things.

I thank you for your thoughts. I want you to know, I am pro-afk-farming. I am pro-farming. I'm also pro-play the game how you want, whatever that looks like, as long as it doesn't corral me to play the game in a fashion I would rather not. I farm. I market. I play content. I do it all, but some I do better than others. I market better than I farm. I play content better than I farm. But, I still farm, more to avoid spending influence than to acquire it. The devs, as I understand these mysterious people, have no real beef with active farmers. Even though their risk is minimal, their efforts are not scalable. They're active. So, they do whatever it is they do with their drops, which can vary from player to player. Given what I will call somewhat negative changes to AE on Brainstorm, it is clear that they would like to reduce, if not do away with afk farming. Afk farming is scalable. Because we can have 3 accounts per shard, while I maintain more than 4 accounts is too tedious for me, there may be others that don't play on a primary account and just farm. For them, they may be able to handle 6 accounts, or maybe more. That's a lot of tedium for me, but the inf would certainly pour in at quite a high rate. And it's easy, once you get the build figured out. It doesn't always go perfect for me, but it's certainly effective. But then, I've always maintained that a build specifically for AE, on top of a build for general content would be an opportunity cost. How many maps and conversions would I have to make to get the return on the investment for a specific afk farm build? And, ultimately, given that my afk-farmers already have a build, and can do the job, and they're afk, who gives a crap if it takes them 2 minutes longer than a farm-optimized build? Not me. I maintain that even if players did run a dozen accounts or so, afk, the returns they'd get are a drop in the bucket compared to the total inf that gets poured into the economy every day. Most players that are filthy rich in influence simply accumulate that influence. They aren't mucking with the AH and influencing the costs of IOs, and even if they did, the marketers would keep them in check quickly. The average marketer makes more than the best farmer, hands down - with absolutely zero risk of defeat, and they make it faster. Much, much faster if they price well. And yet, the folks against AE whine about the advantages of farming over non-AE content. It's an apples to oranges comparison we're doing, on many levels. As has been pointed out, different builds, different players, the rng, all give varying results, both in farms and outside of them. I can concede due to the density of mobs that there are more kills per unit of time on farm than outside of AE. But - have we forgotten that teams of 8 get more xp than a solo player? Have we forgotten that XP (and thus influence) is higher outside of AE than in AE? The HC devs have already throttled down the farmer's earnings. And yet, still some of you cry for "less, less, less". A very few of you will not be happy until every farmer has left. To those people, I present to you Rebirth. There are no vet levels. The slog of a grind on the incarnate path is very real for the solo player. Even doing Dark Astoria arcs will not help you much. You basically must do iTrials there. And it's quite cozy. Once you play there, you are essentially going to be teaming with the same people, day in, day out. It's like one big (but small) SG. They are all extremely competent, and they love to mock us as impatient, lazy children. They like to grind for it. And I've tried AFK farming there, and have not done so well. There is no spines/fire combo. There is rad/fire, so I've got one in the works, grinding it up old school style. But, converters are hard to come by as they're not tradeable. You can get them randomly - maybe 20 on your journey from 1-50 will drop. Or you can buy them at 5 reward merits for 1, and pay 25K for the exchange. Yes, the anti-farmer should go to Rebirth. You will like the grind, the different ATs and powersets. The only thing you won't like is at peak times, you might get 100 players. I doubt it, but you might. And because of that, most of you won't go where other like-minded players are. You'll stay here and try to drag the rest of us, kicking and screaming out of the farm and into your bloody mainstream content, with your "You'll play it my way and like it" attitude. Good luck with that.

Thing is - only a fraction of people are going to use those builds. My farmers were around before those builds existed; never saw a reason to change them because my farmers can handle life outside the farm, as they leveled up through content outside of AE. So, your numbers may be added, but to make this blanket statement that other numbers are errors and yours are accurate is ludicrous. It's fine for "in vitro", but this is "in vivo". My numbers are accurate for my farmers. Flea's are accurate for his, etc. Yours is just a single number to add to the total and divide by the total set of tests for each respective criteria. Additionally - your numbers coming from Brainstorm, not live. So they are useful, but everyone else's numbers are from where things are currently to actually determine what the advantage is, if there actually is one.

@America's AngelCan you elaborate on "bunch of inaccurate numbers"? Whose numbers are you deeming inaccurate? And how is it that you believe that your numbers are any more valid than theirs? Because it's unlikely all farm builds are the same, while the influence on a given map, if it's cleared would likely be the same total, assuming the number of mobs are the same, the time to clear that map will vary from farm character to character. So, there is no "X million inf/minute" is the answer. The answer will vary. In some cases by a lot, because in my tiny 3 asteroid map test sample, I didn't clear the maps. Your comment is throwing me off. Explain yourself, please. As for marketers, that varies with each marketer. Some folks like @Yomo will go for volume, but accept a smaller profit. Whereas me, I can't be bothered with any sale less than 3m. Some folks flip salvage. There's just too many niche players to come up with an average for a marketer, particularly when you consider a marketer will likely market with every character they play, with only a certain few set up to market certain things in certain niche areas.