Feedback: Testing Melee Set Performance

[Hopeling]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Speaking of, did you ever get the activation times for the powers with/without momentum Hopeling?

Just did. Bopper has them here. With Momentum and Arcanatime, they come out to:

• Defensive Sweep: 1.188s
• Crushing Blow: 1.452s
• Titan Sweep: 1.188s
• Rend Armor: 1.452s
• Arc of Destruction: 1.716s

[Myrmidon]

1 hour ago, Murcielago said:

I'd speculate a large minority of the game population doesn't use SOs either. Where the problem lies is:

A. Availability of IO sets. It is way too easy in this game to make an absolute monster of a hero now. What used to cost billions and billions of INF is now available for maybe 500m INF if you're patient. My build for Murcielago before VR sets became ungodly expensive would hover in the 1.5-2.5 bnINF. Which leads to.

B. Difficulty of content. Because set IOs are so easy to come by the content difficulty has because laughably easy. Its fun don't get me wrong but ultimately the root cause is IO sets and their easy availability. Seeding the market with salvage was great for the beginning but it's added a layer of "too easy" to the game. If something needs to be done, its the devs need to adjust the drop rates of recipes or enhancement converters and make IO sets expensive again.  

 

[EyeLuvBooks]

2 hours ago, cejmp said:

 

I do the same thing my friend. I was pointing out that the time from 1 to 32 is frivolous.

Odd that you should say this when I distinctly recall when the game was Live that a significant portion of the character on the servers, and by that I mean a good 3/4ths of them, were BELOW lvl 30. In other words, most of the characters played in the game were 30 or under. Hardly 'frivolous.'

 

If you doubt me, find some numbers to tell us all how many of the CURRENT toons are above 30. I'm thinking a majority of them will also be below 30.

 

The first 32 levels are trivial to YOU, not necessarily to everyone else.

[EyeLuvBooks]

40 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

 

I disagree. One of the things I always hated about the Market on Live was that most if not all of the high-end IO recipes required salvage that ONLY dropped from low-end spawns. Rather than just play the game (as intended), the uber-wealthy players who were on the game for 2+ years with very little to buy immediately began buying Alc Silver for 100K or more each. So now that new player with one toon who just wants to get his Stamina slotted so he's not sucking wind all game has to spend MILLIONS for lvl 25 common IOs. Bases also used to cost Prestige so if you wanted storage as a new player you either joined a SG (some of who had downright predatory practices) or you stored stuff in the Vault and went at it alone.

 

Now, common IOs are cheap and everyone can use them and that makes me delirious. The people who manipulate the Market for their own profit STILL make billions so they're happy. New players not interested in the Market and crafting can still sell their stuff for Inf to buy common Enhancers so THEY'RE happy.

 

If you want things to go back to how they were, I STRONGLY suggest that the high-end recipes be changed so they ONLY need salvage dropped by high-end mobs. 

[Myrmidon]

49 minutes ago, EyeLuvBooks said:

I disagree. One of the things I always hated about the Market on Live was that most if not all of the high-end IO recipes required salvage that ONLY dropped from low-end spawns. Rather than just play the game (as intended), the uber-wealthy players who were on the game for 2+ years with very little to buy immediately began buying Alc Silver for 100K or more each. So now that new player with one toon who just wants to get his Stamina slotted so he's not sucking wind all game has to spend MILLIONS for lvl 25 common IOs. Bases also used to cost Prestige so if you wanted storage as a new player you either joined a SG (some of who had downright predatory practices) or you stored stuff in the Vault and went at it alone.

 

Now, common IOs are cheap and everyone can use them and that makes me delirious. The people who manipulate the Market for their own profit STILL make billions so they're happy. New players not interested in the Market and crafting can still sell their stuff for Inf to buy common Enhancers so THEY'RE happy.

 

If you want things to go back to how they were, I STRONGLY suggest that the high-end recipes be changed so they ONLY need salvage dropped by high-end mobs. 

 

 

I believe that you’re looking for this post. As someone that used to spend $60-70US (per character) on Store Bought Enhancements to avoid that live Market abomination, I’m 100% with you on this.😁

[Heraclea]

6 hours ago, Murcielago said:

I'd speculate a large minority of the game population doesn't use SOs either. Where the problem lies is:

A. Availability of IO sets. It is way too easy in this game to make an absolute monster of a hero now. What used to cost billions and billions of INF is now available for maybe 500m INF if you're patient. My build for Murcielago before VR sets became ungodly expensive would hover in the 1.5-2.5 bnINF. Which leads to.

B. Difficulty of content. Because set IOs are so easy to come by the content difficulty has because laughably easy. Its fun don't get me wrong but ultimately the root cause is IO sets and their easy availability. Seeding the market with salvage was great for the beginning but it's added a layer of "too easy" to the game. If something needs to be done, its the devs need to adjust the drop rates of recipes or enhancement converters and make IO sets expensive again.  

The happy return of our game is something that may be snatched from under us any second.  While I get to play it this summer, I want my characters to get to their full potential.  Given this stark fact, 'too easy' progression is a meaningless expression. 

[WumpusRat]

On 9/10/2019 at 11:49 AM, Haijinx said:

I think we have to be really careful to use things like Pylon times or popular opinions to determine outliers.

 

This was my thought too. While pylon timers can be amusing to look at in terms of "look at what this can do under specific, idealized circumstances", it's not even remotely close to what 99.9% of the rest of the game is like. It's kind of like saying "yes, but psi damage does a bunch of extra damage against clockwork, therefore psi hits too hard and needs to be nerfed". 

[DSorrow]

 

7 hours ago, Infinitum said:

No, its longer than that on bosses.  trust me.

 

There was no down time though, im not sure where you are getting that from.

 

But still, if its that finnicky where you HAVE to build it a certain way for it to beat a broken set.  How is that OP?

Well it's funny you should say that when you have no qualms about EM being "built right and played correctly":

On 9/12/2019 at 1:58 AM, Infinitum said:

It's a very similar situation to EM, just different damage type.  Its also got to be built right, and played correctly for it to work, kinda like EM used to be with utilizing recharge and correct attack chain to get two ETs in one build up cycle.

 

Thats why its similar to EM

 

And by your logic about EM its still a solid boss killer ST machine, according to the numbers anyway, how does it feel in game though?

Do you honestly see absolutely no issue if EM a single target specialist with a correct attack chain is almost matched by an AoE focused unoptimized attack sequence from TW against single targets? I have a TW/Elec character I really like so I really don't want it to get nuked, but I have to admit that the numbers posted here do indicate that TW should maybe be toned down a little. Reducing its damage output by ~10% at the top end would still keep it a top performing set.

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, DSorrow said:

 

Well it's funny you should say that when you have no qualms about EM being "built right and played correctly":

Do you honestly see absolutely no issue if EM a single target specialist with a correct attack chain is almost matched by an AoE focused unoptimized attack sequence from TW against single targets? I have a TW/Elec character I really like so I really don't want it to get nuked, but I have to admit that the numbers posted here do indicate that TW should maybe be toned down a little. Reducing its damage output by ~10% at the top end would still keep it a top performing set.

EM is broken, that IS my point.  I tried TW several times till I found the highest dps sequence in my attack chain for single target with my build to compare it with with no downtime. if it was as OP as everyone here says it is, I shouldnt have to respec to make it compete with a broken set like EM for single target.  For one I like my build the way it is.

 

Any nerf will make any TW setup like mine focused on multi target more useless with ST.  If it's that finnicky to have only one design path to beat a set thats broken like EM, thats where my point comes home.

 

How many other casual players out there will make it that much harder to play, because maybe they dont come on here to know any better what the correct slotting, power selection and attack chain is.

 

Should there be a disclaimer at the power selection screen "dont choose this before consulting the forums, how to slot, select your attack chain or play"?

Edited September 13, 2019 by Infinitum

[Indystruck]

The only finnicky part is that rolling your face on the keyboard as TW outdamages an optimized EM chain.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Indystruck

[DSorrow]

3 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

EM is broken, that IS my point. 

Nobody is contesting that EM is quite crappy.

 

4 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Which is part of my point, if it was as OP as everyone here says it is, I shouldnt have to respec to make it compete with a broken set like EM for single target. 

It's not a build issue, it's an attack sequence issue. You don't need a respec to start using your best ST attack in a ST attack chain unless you didn't pick it in the first place, which brings me to:

5 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Any nerf will make any TW setup like mine focused on multi target more useless with ST.  If it's that finnicky to have only one design path to beat a set thats broken like EM, thats kinda my point.

I don't think it's "finnicky" design if an attack chain comprising mostly of AoE attacks doesn't work well for ST. That's just trying to make the square peg go into the round hole and complaining that the benchmark has unreasonable standards when you're expected to use round pegs.

 

8 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

How many other casual players out there will make it that much harder to play, because maybe they dont come on here to know any better what the correct slotting, power selection and attack chain is.

 

Should there be a disclaimer at the power selection screen "dont choose this before consulting the forums, how to slot, select your attack chain or play"?

But that isn't required for average performance. If you look at the numbers posted by @Hopeling on page 3:

 

Quote

• Defensive Sweep: 25.7 formula, 30.4 actual (18% extra)
• Crushing Blow: 68.4 formula, 75.2 actual (10% extra)
• Titan Sweep: 50.5 formula, 59.6 actual (18% extra)
• Follow Through: 81.7 formula, 89.9 actual (10% extra)
• Rend Armor: 121.8 formula, 134 actual (10% extra)
• Whirling Smash: 33.4 formula, 48 actual (44% extra)
• Arc of Destruction: 91.6 formula, 108.3 actual (18% extra)

TW has good DPA even without Momentum, so you'll most likely outdamage a comparable attack chain from other sets. Add in Momentum and the difference just grows.

 

Look, I know you don't want to see nerfs and I don't like nerfing either, but for me it's impossible to handwave all the evidence pointing to the fact that TW is maybe at least a little bit too powerful. Momentum as a mechanic can be pretty clunky at times and the set is really hard on Endurance, but even accounting for those it seems like TW needs to be toned down slightly (<--- the keyword here). Sure, I'd rather see everything else buffed but if we're being honest, slightly taking down TW is just a whole lot more practical. I'd be absolutely livid if they nuked TW to the level of EM because I really like the set, but even with a ~10% reduction it's going to be a top tier set but just with less gap to the next best performers.

[Murcielago]

8 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

 

Ironically said in a thread about nerfing titan weapons. 

 

 

[Murcielago]

6 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

I believe that you’re looking for this post. As someone that used to spend $60-70US (per character) on Store Bought Enhancements to avoid that live Market abomination, I’m 100% with you on this.

[Murcielago]

4 hours ago, Heraclea said:

The happy return of our game is something that may be snatched from under us any second.  While I get to play it this summer, I want my characters to get to their full potential.  Given this stark fact, 'too easy' progression is a meaningless expression. 

If you don't want to hear the game is too easy, don't come into a thread about nerfing a set that is making the game too easy. 

[Sniktch]

Something else to note about the posted formula vs. actual numbers - they don't even begin to factor in secondary effects, or the fact that every TW attack has more range than other melee attacks.  The reason KO Blow does slightly less damage than Seismic Smash is because Seismic Smash is a 7-foot range and KO Blow is 13.  Titan Weapons gets 10+ foot range on everything for free.  It also gets all its secondary effects for free.  It also gets Momentum's faster animations for free.  As a comparison point, Fire Melee gets ONE secondary effect for free - the DoTs.  Energy Melee gets its stun effects for free.  No other set gets so many baseline advantages just handed to it, PLUS a giant damage buff on-top.

 

As for those trying to argue with certain people of shall we say staunch viewpoint:

 

 

Don't bother with Wally, he's not worth your time.

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, DSorrow said:

Nobody is contesting that EM is quite crappy.

 

It's not a build issue, it's an attack sequence issue. You don't need a respec to start using your best ST attack in a ST attack chain unless you didn't pick it in the first place, which brings me to:

I don't think it's "finnicky" design if an attack chain comprising mostly of AoE attacks doesn't work well for ST. That's just trying to make the square peg go into the round hole and complaining that the benchmark has unreasonable standards when you're expected to use round pegs.

 

But that isn't required for average performance. If you look at the numbers posted by @Hopeling on page 3:

 

TW has good DPA even without Momentum, so you'll most likely outdamage a comparable attack chain from other sets. Add in Momentum and the difference just grows.

 

Look, I know you don't want to see nerfs and I don't like nerfing either, but for me it's impossible to handwave all the evidence pointing to the fact that TW is maybe at least a little bit too powerful. Momentum as a mechanic can be pretty clunky at times and the set is really hard on Endurance, but even accounting for those it seems like TW needs to be toned down slightly (<--- the keyword here). Sure, I'd rather see everything else buffed but if we're being honest, slightly taking down TW is just a whole lot more practical. I'd be absolutely livid if they nuked TW to the level of EM because I really like the set, but even with a ~10% reduction it's going to be a top tier set but just with less gap to the next best performers.

No, it's my build, it's that way for a reason, I'm not changing it. 

 

Either way the best 2 attacks on my TW is RA and AoD and that's what I used most.  It still should have come out on top of a broke EM set that's slow.

 

Taking TW down won't make anything any better.  Just TW worse.  I don't even play mine as it is, I'm not really a fan of it honestly.  IMO it already has too many drawbacks, and way too unforgiving if the situation is anything but optimal for any reason.

 

Melee needs better set boosts across the board, not nerfs to anything.

 

Otherwise you will go back to live days when everyone was abandoning everything for every FotM Controller.

 

That's my .02 though.

[DSorrow]

31 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

No, it's my build, it's that way for a reason, I'm not changing it. 

Because repeating arguments is fashionable in this thread:

2 hours ago, DSorrow said:

It's not a build issue, it's an attack sequence issue. You don't need a respec to start using your best ST attack in a ST attack chain unless you didn't pick it in the first place, which brings me to:

 

31 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Either way the best 2 attacks on my TW is RA and AoD and that's what I used most.  It still should have come out on top of a broke EM set that's slow.

Especially in the case where you deliberately skip the best ST attack in TW (which is Follow Through) there's absolutely no reason it "should" be better than EM at ST damage or even good for that matter.

 

33 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Taking TW down won't make anything any better.  Just TW worse.  I don't even play mine as it is, I'm not really a fan of it honestly.  IMO it already has too many drawbacks, and way too unforgiving if the situation is anything but optimal for any reason.

I don't feel that TW is overpowered either, but I realize my that my perception of how the set performs is very subjective and that view isn't supported by the numbers. Like I said, I'm not a fan of nerfs, but after looking at the numbers I can't honestly say that TW isn't at least a little bit too powerful even if we account for the drawbacks.

 

38 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Otherwise you will go back to live days when everyone was abandoning everything for every FotM Controller.

Hyperbole much? If a 10% cut in TW's maximum single target damage output in optimal conditions causes this, I'll eat my hat. 

 

Anyways, arguing against cognitive bias seems like an exercise in futility so I'll just show myself out and go do something more productive with my time.

[Infinitum]

7 minutes ago, DSorrow said:

Because repeating arguments is fashionable in this thread:

 

Especially in the case where you deliberately skip the best ST attack in TW (which is Follow Through) there's absolutely no reason it "should" be better than EM at ST damage or even good for that matter.

 

I don't feel that TW is overpowered either, but I realize my that my perception of how the set performs is very subjective and that view isn't supported by the numbers. Like I said, I'm not a fan of nerfs, but after looking at the numbers I can't honestly say that TW isn't at least a little bit too powerful even if we account for the drawbacks.

 

Hyperbole much? If a 10% cut in TW's maximum single target damage output in optimal conditions causes this, I'll eat my hat. 

 

Anyways, arguing against cognitive bias seems like an exercise in futility so I'll just show myself out and go do something more productive with my time.

Missing the point you are.

[Infinitum]

15 minutes ago, DSorrow said:

Because repeating arguments is fashionable in this thread:

 

Especially in the case where you deliberately skip the best ST attack in TW (which is Follow Through) there's absolutely no reason it "should" be better than EM at ST damage or even good for that matter.

Serious question how when in momentum is follow through the best ST attack when both RA and AoD do a good bit more damage in around the same amount of activation time?

 

I honestly don't understand how my EM was higher because it's at least twice as long but I guess it's outweighed because it nearly does twice the damage on ET and at least 30% more on TF albeit slower.

 

I'm not being argumentative here, honestly I just want to see how the numbers work or work differently if follow through were in my attack chain.

 

Should EM even be close at that point, or is EM as bad as everyone thinks it is?  I think it is and was surprised it came out on top my TW even though it always felt lacking on ST.

 

I built it for every multi hit I could get though, that was my idea behind this build, I was up front about that from the beginning, I wasn't trying to sell it as a ST monster, bit still if it were OP it shouldn't even be close no matter what power you choose.

[Steampunkette]

@Infinitum Unless you can get the recharge time of Rend Armor down to 1.76 seconds and Arc of Destruction down to 1.45 seconds you've got dead air in your 'Single Target' momentum chain. If you're throwing stuff in it to fill time, that's great! It's not going to be as good as Follow Up, though. 

 

So you're literally using a build that has shot itself in the foot, out of the gate, on single target damage and claiming that it doesn't do OP Single Target Damage in fact of the numbers because your experience doesn't line up with it. I'll give you an analogy, as a call back to way back when you mistook fallacy for analogy!

 

That's like buying a prize winning racehorse, hobbling it with a rope, and complaining when it comes in fourth place.

 

"But it should still be good if the set is OP overall haw haw haw lulz!" Nah, Bro. You don't use AoE superiority on a Single Target and pretend it's the same thing. The set has OP AoE for AoE situations 'cause of it's high damage to area ratio, that shit doesn't matter in a single target situation. It's also got great single target damage if you don't self-nerf it. You did self-nerf it. You nerfed it into the ground and are using that experience to try and express how 'Not Strong' the set is.

 

I'm honestly kind of flabbergasted by all this. The reason you don't think the set needs nerfs is because you nerfed it on your characters. That shit is HILARIOUS.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Steampunkette

[DSorrow]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

Missing the point you are.

Well, if in 14 pages you have been able to make a point that wasn't just resorting to ad hominem attacks, appeals to emotion, strawman arguments, slippery slopes, and appeal to popularity to try and squash dissent because what you feel is far more important than any information or data that can be gathered, then I'm sorry I missed it. The only point I'm seeing is "I don't want TW nerfed" which is a sentiment I share, but being completely honest there's nothing I have that would back up that a slight nerf wouldn't be justified. If you want to make a concise point that isn't straight up hyperbole, then sure, we can continue the discussion but otherwise it's pointless because to me it seems you've decided on an opinion that can't be changed.

 

45 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Serious question how when in momentum is follow through the best ST attack when both RA and AoD do a good bit more damage in around the same amount of activation time?

It has the best damage over activation cycle.

 

Looking at the activation times posted earlier:

13 hours ago, Hopeling said:

Just did. Bopper has them here. With Momentum and Arcanatime, they come out to:

• Defensive Sweep: 1.188s
• Crushing Blow: 1.452s
• Titan Sweep: 1.188s
• Rend Armor: 1.452s
• Arc of Destruction: 1.716s

Combined with damage numbers from Mid's (Brute), we get the following DPA:

• FT: 101.2 (includes DoT) --> 85.2 DPA [1.188 activation time in Mid's, Arcanatime]
• AoD: 108.3 --> 63.2 DPA
• RA: 134 --> 92.3 DPA

RA is higher DPA than FT, but unlike RA you can activate FT twice within one momentum cycle so it will end up giving you better damage contribution. If you're looking at "best" attacks from a pure DPA point of view then stuff like Inferno and such are great, but it's pretty apparent that the overall contribution to damage starts to get more limited with higher recharge. RA would be the better attack if you could activate it as often as FT, and looking at the DPA numbers it's apparent that AoD doesn't even come close.

Edited September 13, 2019 by DSorrow
words are hard

[Haijinx]

10 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

 

 

I believe that you’re looking for this post. As someone that used to spend $60-70US (per character) on Store Bought Enhancements to avoid that live Market abomination, I’m 100% with you on this.😁

I agree.  The current market is much better.  Wanting a return to the ultra elitism is not cool.  Not all of us are wired to be day trading speculators.

[Haijinx]

That does sound like its fairly difficult to achieve though, timing it so you can manage two follow throughs on a single momentum cycle in a dynamic team setting. 

 

If you couldn't do that i doubt it would change how most people play the set.

 

How much recharge do you need for two?

[Steampunkette]

4 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

That does sound like its fairly difficult to achieve though, timing it so you can manage two follow throughs on a single momentum cycle in a dynamic team setting. 

 

If you couldn't do that i doubt it would change how most people play the set.

 

How much recharge do you need for two?

Not a lot, it turns out... the power recharges in 10 seconds, base, and you can slot it for Recharge with 2 SOs and grab Hasten to have it every 4.7 seconds during Hasten Windows. Use it at the start of Momentum, use it at the end of Momentum, and use RA and AoD in the middle. 

 

Of course, you -could- get into the absolutely silly levels of recharge reduction that IO Sets can produce... and that just opens things up even wider.

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Not a lot, it turns out... the power recharges in 10 seconds, base, and you can slot it for Recharge with 2 SOs and grab Hasten to have it every 4.7 seconds during Hasten Windows. Use it at the start of Momentum, use it at the end of Momentum, and use RA and AoD in the middle. 

 

Of course, you -could- get into the absolutely silly levels of recharge reduction that IO Sets can produce... and that just opens things up even wider.

So its possible but highly unlikely to be used on a SO build.  

 

But pretty easy to pull off with IOs

 

Hmm.