Focused Feedback: Rage

[Myrmidon]

12 hours ago, csr said:

I started playing an SS Tanker just over 15 years ago.  To me the crash simply belongs there.  And with the current situation your comparing using something you may or may not have to using a little patience and attentiveness to not click the power too soon.  Honestly though, the farmers are probably gobbling all the reds they have anyway, so that stacked Rage advantage is actually less than advertised.

 

To summarize my position:

• I'm OK with the way Rage is on live except for the imbalance of the -Def debuff.  So this version on Pineapple is pretty close to what I would do myself.
• I don't think that stackable Rage is really all that and a bag of chips, so I wouldn't mind all that much if it went away.  I just find catering to those too lazy to take Rage off auto-fire annoying.  I can get crashless Rage with this change if I want it by exercising a tiny bit of patience and attentiveness.
• If we're doing single stack Rage then let's get rid of the click altogether and make it a toggle with an END cost chosen to make most people want to 2 slot it with EndRdx (say 0.4-0.52 E/s).
• Rage should probably be renamed to something that doesn't mean "uncontrolled anger", especially if there is to be no crash.

As one of those 15-year Tankers as well, I’m with you on just about everything and the rename idea is excellent. We could rename it something like “Might” and that might satisfy more concept players.

 

 

To be fair, I’ve gotten Rage down to about 10 seconds or so without it, which I will use over dealing with the crash if it goes live as is.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Myrmidon

[Haijinx]

With the proposed scale changes stackable Rage will help Tankers a lot more than Brutes.

 

The irony being its generally Brutes that most want the stacks.  

 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2019 by Haijinx

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

 We could rename it something like “Might” and that might satisfy more concept players.

 

This is a little bit OCD I think.  Its just a game mechanic its not like Rage plays the tough animation every 20 seconds.  

 

But I guess I can see it.  I wish I could have all my icons be the same color like they are on my Night Widow (well almost) 

[Cawshun]

33 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

 

So, we have to suffer the crash for a damage buff that can easily be obtained with Red inspirations? Interesting how the table turns.

If you find it easy to maintain +80% damage from reds outside of farming, then sure? I think you might have misunderstood the numbers. 
 

22 minutes ago, csr said:

I also thought the floor was 10% of base.

I thought so as well, but some of the numbers I got appeared lower than that during the crash (I was using the log, so it was definitely from the ability itself and not another damage source). Perhaps something weird was going on. If I get time I'll look in to it more.
 

25 minutes ago, csr said:

I still consider these builds outliers and those numbers very close to the optimal best.  And I will reiterate that in my opinion, outside of farming that level of buff isn't really a big deal.  And even in farms it's probably about a 10% increase in INF earnings.  So while that's significant, I don't think it makes stackable Rage a crazily OP thing like, say, Brutes in general.  Now, double stacking without a crash would be a different story.

I don't think stackable rage is OP by any stretch in its current(and beta) form. I think it's strong enough, especially in burst, to create a potential risk/reward for faster mob clears in any content, even in builds that aren't fully optimized. I agree with you that the beta version is pretty close to the best of both worlds. If you don't want the crash, you don't have to deal with it. If you want the extra burst from another stack, you can have that too.

 

35 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

whoa whoa

 

SS is getting that Rage bonus to Damage abilities outside of SS literally for free. 

 

All the other sets have to get by with inferior +To hit and +Dmg abilities. They don't have buffed Epic pools, etc to compensate for not having Rage.  

 

Balancing things so SS doesn't "lose" this free damage is ridiculous.  

It's not really free, since it comes with a crash currently. Regardless, the point is that SS has it now, and I wouldn't say SS is really OP because of it either. What I'm suggesting is that some of that power is kept in the extra abilities, rather than all funneled into just SS. I'm not sure how that's ridiculous.
 

[Haijinx]

Whoa - sorry to tipple post .. but hmmm.. just a thought. 

 

Realistically it might be fair if you had a smaller crash for Brutes than Tankers in some way.  Since really they will be getting less from the Rages.  

 

Or something else along those lines.  Less damage boost for Tanks, or something.  

[summers]

Just now, Haijinx said:

Whoa - sorry to tipple post .. but hmmm.. just a thought. 

 

Realistically it might be fair if you had a smaller crash for Brutes than Tankers in some way.  Since really they will be getting less from the Rages.  

 

Or something else along those lines.  Less damage boost for Tanks, or something.  

I of course support something for Brutes, since IMO the breakdown I provided on page 5 is a pretty fair review of what the result of the changes will be.

[Haijinx]

2 minutes ago, Cawshun said:

 

It's not really free, since it comes with a crash currently. Regardless, the point is that SS has it now, and I wouldn't say SS is really OP because of it either. What I'm suggesting is that some of that power is kept in the extra abilities, rather than all funneled into just SS. I'm not sure how that's ridiculous.
 

Oh .. okay.

 

I think that its okay to keep the extra damage from Rage on things like Epic pools and so on.  But I don't think they should get anything else more than other sets.  

[Golden Azrael]

On 9/13/2019 at 1:04 AM, Cooltastic said:

Rage Revamp: Tweaked a bit from my earlier post with a better understanding of what I was trying to go for hopefully.

 

So this is how I personally feel the power should work based on it's theme, while giving players the ability to manage it however they like. Also boosting SS's damage potential slightly(when and if you want to push it.)

 

First: Lower the cooldown on Rage from 4mins to 3mins. This allows the ability to get double stacked for about 30secs with roughly 95% recharge slotted. With Hasten you will be able to keep double stacked for even longer. With IO set bonuses added in you'll be able to triple stack Rage for a good amount of time. I'd like to see a build that can maintain ALMOST maintain perma Triple stacks if they want to go all in on Rage.

 

Secondly: Change the +80 Dam/+20 To-hit to +60 Dam/+15 To-hit per stack of Rage. The First stack will provide slightly less than live, but makes up for it in the end if you want to pursue the max offensive potential of the ability. On live you can perma Double Stacked, which comes out to +160 Dam/+40 To-hit. With the suggested alterations, while triple stacked, you will be able to reach +180 Dam/+45 To-hit.

 

Third: Remove the penalty at the end of Rage altogether and replace it with this step 4.

 

Fourth: Your first stack of Rage comes with no negative effects, just a straight buff. Your second and third stacks will have stacking negative effects that will be applied to your character for as long as you maintain the extra stacks of Rage. These are -7.5%Def/-15%Ell/-15%Res or -10%Def/-20%Ell/-20%Res(Which ever feels more fair for the added damage/acc boost in return.

 

Fifth: Make the End cost of 25% get spent upon activation of each stack.

 

These are my proposed changes to revamp this power in a way that should make the majority of players happy. Those that want to manage a single stack can still do so and save slots in the process by not needing to slot Rage for Recharge, can instead slot +To-hit to make up for the lower single stack amount. Those that just want to have fun stacking Rage will still get to do so, by setting it to Auto and letting what may come happen. Lower damage Tanks who's defenses are stacked may be more inclined to triple stack because they can afford the negative effects easier. Higher DPS brutes may prefer to manage single or double stacks as to keep they're survivability up, allowing them to make use of their designated Rage Slots elsewhere. These changes help open up builds slightly more for Super Strength.

 

These changes would make rage feel more in line with what it sounds like thematically. As your rage grows you are able to dish out more and more damage. But rage is hard to control, so as it grows it also makes you less focused on protecting yourself. The player gets to manage their character concept this way as well. Superman types would be more of a focused Rage. Hulk types would be more careless and only concerned with SMASH! 

 

Well, that's that as they say. Hope I've described things well enough to give this some serious thought over. 

That's a very good post.  And an intricate but 'simple' solution.  

 

I hope the developers are playing CLOSE attention to this particular post.  I think this pretty much nails it.

 

There's a price to pay for each stack but it's not all or nothing.  Those who want 1, 2 or 3 stacks get to enjoy it on their terms.  And includes IO setting for those that really want to push it.  And helps push SS to a pre-eminent position again.  And if feels like it stays true to the power as is...just massaging it's obvious flaws.

 

That said.  I would like to see all non-SS tanks get a single stack of Rage to replace BU.  Sets like Ice, En and Stone would really benefit to take tanks to the next level.  Whilst the current beta chances are nice.  They're only what is necessary to take the underperforming tank to a better base.

 

Give me 'Single click' rage to replace BU on my ice/stone and en tanks?  I'll actually play them. 🙂

 

Azrael.

[Vindicator]

On 9/11/2019 at 11:52 PM, Haijinx said:

Im okay with single rage only either a toggle or a no stack.

 

Im okay with single rage with jab and punch moved up to better rec/dam 

 

Again, an excellent suggestion.  Jab and Punch need this help, with more damage and longer recharge accordingly.

 

As for the thread in general, we're talking about perma triple-stacked Rage now?  Really?

 

In my opinion Rage should be a toggle.  Do you want your character to "rage"?  No problem, click the toggle.  Don't feel like "raging" right now?  No problem, unclick the toggle.  No more stacking.  No more penalties.  Just a simple "yes or no".  If necessary, increase the damage of other powers to compensate for the lack of stackability.

 

For the recharge junkies, a Rage toggle would not penalize you.  Your Foot Stomp, Knockout Blow, and other powers still benefit from your recharge bonuses.  Just replace your Rage recharge reduction enhancements with endurance reduction.  People that already have an IO set in Rage should be fine.

 

Finally, the "cottage rule" was superceded on other occasions for the sake of game evolution; I see no reason to cling to it in this case.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Vindicator
Grammar.

[Myrmidon]

21 hours ago, Haijinx said:

This is a little bit OCD I think.  Its just a game mechanic its not like Rage plays the tough animation every 20 seconds.  

 

But I guess I can see it.  I wish I could have all my icons be the same color like they are on my Night Widow (well almost) 

 

My OCD is that every single character needs the lowest level Miracle/Numina procs waiting in their tray before I put a single digit of Experience on them.

Edited September 15, 2019 by Myrmidon

[Haijinx]

Dont forget that panacea one!

 

 

[Myrmidon]

4 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Dont forget that panacea one!

 

 

I play the Conversion game, so that usually comes later.

[Bossk_Hogg]

What if Brute Rage/Build Ups provided a set amount of fury, or raised your fury to a certain level if it was under it? Like Rage would set fury to 80%, or give 5% fury if you were over 80%? Right now they give no fury upon activation.

 

That would help the power provide more benefit to brutes (as it should, being a primary power) given their lower initial damage, help brutes build up fury right out of the gate in a mission, and help on teams with multiple tank types as the brute isnt getting the brunt of the aggro.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Bossk_Hogg

[DMW45]

10 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

I play the Conversion game, so that usually comes later.

The irony being that you can put Panacea in before either of the others

[Myrmidon]

1 minute ago, DMW45 said:

The irony being that you can put Panacea in before either of the others

 

Panacea recipes are not part of the cheaply obtained equation.

[Aracknight]

Why not make a toggle power called "Scrap" to replace build up and rage?  It could increase damage by x% to  equal that of a Scrapper, but conversely lower resistance and defense and possibly hit points to Scrapper levels as well while running.    It could cost endurance to run and still add To Hit or Accuracy.

 

This could conceivably address the "do more damage at a cost of taking more damage" concept as well as have a trade off that isn't quite a "crash."  It'd be more situational, more controllable and easily planned for, and may make soloing a little faster also.

 

Conversely, you could replace the "lighter taunts" of Scrappers and make a toggle power called "Tank" for them that did the exact opposite (lowered damage but increased Def/Res/Hit points), and added a Taunt aura instead of To hit/Accuracy. 

 

Then Scrappers could tank better if they wanted to allow a group of other Pet Archetypes team with them :P

[Captain Citadel]

3 hours ago, Aracknight said:

Why not make a toggle power called "Scrap" to replace build up and rage?  It could increase damage by x% to  equal that of a Scrapper, but conversely lower resistance and defense and possibly hit points to Scrapper levels as well while running.    It could cost endurance to run and still add To Hit or Accuracy.

 

This could conceivably address the "do more damage at a cost of taking more damage" concept as well as have a trade off that isn't quite a "crash."  It'd be more situational, more controllable and easily planned for, and may make soloing a little faster also.

 

Conversely, you could replace the "lighter taunts" of Scrappers and make a toggle power called "Tank" for them that did the exact opposite (lowered damage but increased Def/Res/Hit points), and added a Taunt aura instead of To hit/Accuracy. 

 

Then Scrappers could tank better if they wanted to allow a group of other Pet Archetypes team with them 😛

No. Sorry, but this is missing the point of the tank changes and the changes being made to Rage.

The defensive debuff portion of the Rage crash is manageable for any Incarnate-level Tankers or Brutes that are built for defense, it's the -999% damage debuff that cannot be mitigated in any meaningful way.

[Aracknight]

I believe that if the point was to modify a power to provide a to-hit and damage bonus to Tanks in order to give them a more meaningful DPS with a possible tradeoff to survivability that I haven't missed it at all.

 

Solutions aren't binary.  There isn't a single magic bullet for this issue.  If there was, the past or present Developers would have fired it long ago. 

[Captain Powerhouse]

Thing to keep in mind that I think has been missed by many, just clarified this in the tanker thread:

 

Tanker modifier changes only impact melee modifiers, not ranged modifiers. Epic pools now use ranged modifiers that have been buffed to the old base tanker modifier.

 

This means, Epic pools for tankers operate at scale 0.8, not much higher than brute's. For the most part, This will throw a complicated monkey wrench at most estimates without running complete attack chain analysis, or better yet in game testing.

Edited September 15, 2019 by Captain Powerhouse

[Myrmidon]

8 hours ago, Aracknight said:

 

Solutions aren't binary.  There isn't a single magic bullet for this issue.  If there was, the past or present Developers would have fired it long ago. 

 

There was. Long ago, Castle had the opportunity to correct Rage and make it unstacking. He chose the opposite and here we are. 

[skoryy]

At some point this week I'll whip up an Inv/SS on Pineapple and see for myself.  I'd think as long as Rage has a 'no touchie' circle while you can potentially double stack it, this should be easy to manage.

[Haijinx]

6 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

 

There was. Long ago, Castle had the opportunity to correct Rage and make it unstacking. He chose the opposite and here we are. 

Because double rage has a lot of appeal, and a dedicated group of players didn't want to give it up. 

 

They have always diminished the effect of by far the best build up power in the game ..

 

While at the same time railing against the pretty minor crash effects.  

 

This thread feels like its gone on for 15 years.  

[Myrmidon]

6 hours ago, skoryy said:

At some point this week I'll whip up an Inv/SS on Pineapple and see for myself.  I'd think as long as Rage has a 'no touchie' circle while you can potentially double stack it, this should be easy to manage.

 

Until you hit teammates that buff your recharge, then it may get tricky depending on your slotting.

[Cawshun]

3 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

 

Until you hit teammates that buff your recharge, then it may get tricky depending on your slotting.

The circle around the power stays as long as you have the rage effect active. Recharge buffs do not impact this in any way. There's nothing tricky about it.

[Haijinx]

all other circle work reverse, don't they

 

Generally the circle means "use now, its more better!" with combos and the like.