Scrapper Melee Primary Testing: "Standard" environment

[TheAdjustor]

23 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Results of 5 runs each:

 

 

This surprised me as I did more runs, but while Battle Axe took more damage / had a death, it was actually faster thanks to keeping enemies bouncing more often instead of giving them windows to run away. Herding up more groups with Broadsword was easy as pie, but that also ate into time that could have been spent swinging at enemies. The last column reflects this where it shows the spread. Broadsword has a 9.28 sec spread where BA has 13.48, making BS more consistent currently. 

 

 

 

This was something I found with my runs as well. This map notably is harder to herd on than the original one.

[Croax]

Maybe i have missed it, but i was looking for the excel sheet and could not find it. Have i missed it?

[DSorrow]

13 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Radiation Melee seems strong.  I just don't like the clouds.

Rad Melee is definitely strong. I expected it to be good but I was still surprised positively by my Rad/SD. The set has strong single target damage and the damage aura combined with Contamination does a great job at whittling down minions while you take down the boss. Typically it's Atom Smasher -> focus on boss and by the time the boss falls, everything else is down as well.

[Galaxy Brain]

The link to the doc is here: CoH Melee Testing

 

Everyone should be able to view it 🙂 

 

I ran BA and BS 5 more times each last night and the spread on BA went down, but it was still faster despite the ease that BS could run around the map without being touched. Pendulum's wider arc and the knockdowns make a big difference in clearing minions and bouncing enemies in place, both of which prevent enemies spreading out... though I did die again while BS was essentially invincible.

 

Then, I ran claws:

 

 

This is a set I am very familiar with, and with slotting everything, including follow up, for 3 dam / 1 Acc/End/Rech I was able to tear through the tests no problem. I actually used Shockwave as a herding tool, queuing it up as I approached a mob and knocked them into another mob as I jumped over and began shredding. Halfway through that, I could repeat and forcefully herd the minions / etc into more targets or the corners / walls of the map.

 

Vs bosses I could reliably keep them off of me by just cycling in Focus and Shockwave against a wall or corner consistently and could easily handle both the EB and a boss or two this way, though I kept to two after that method actually slowed me down in one spot instead of herding and bouncing the boss into other mobs. In a mob, I can also Shockwave -> instantly queue Eviscerate to hit the knocked targets the moment they begin to fly, or Spin.

 

The only times I slowed down was if I messed up my shockwave spacing and scattered somebody into a weird spot, or if I got ballsy and tried to fight multiple bosses at once instead of dragging them along and whittling them down as I cut down minions around them.

 

Oddly, I'm not sure if the Knockdown proc in Shockwave would actually faster as opposed to me just getting better at using it to move mobs efficiently lol.

Edited September 26, 2019 by Galaxy Brain

[Lord_Cyclone91]

I ran 5 runs with Fire Melee.  With the Standard Setup with @Sir Myshkin's slotting for Willpower.  

 

All attacks using the standard slotting. 

 

Not great, but pretty consistent.  I was using Fire Breath, which I normally have skipped in the end game build. 

 

I bit off more than I could chew several times, and had 2 DNFs due to death, needed to adjust after doing Radiation where things were just melting. 

 

1. 6:31

2. 6:48 - not great, several misses, extra boss

3. 6:24 - okay, 1 bad runner

4. 6:19 - clean run, some good crits

5. 6:54 - bad, 2 runners, a bunch of misses

 

Added more runs:

6. 7:07 - spawns sucked, 2 runners and I sucked a little

7. 6:52 - seemed better than the number

8. 6:43 - kinda meh 

9: 7:18 - I sucked, runners all over, lots of misses - nearly died

10: 6:33 - good run, felt shorter than this

 

Overall, fire had that kill them before they kill you feel.  Health was precariously low several times in addition to the 2 deaths. Had another DNF due to death in teh second set, with one sliver moment. 

 

The very ST orientation hurts clear times I think, although did fairly well on boss targets.  I'll try to do 5 more later. 

Edited September 26, 2019 by Lord_Cyclone91
Had time over lunch to add five more runs

[Lord_Cyclone91]

I'm an idiot.  think I screwed up the Radiation test and forgot to turn bosses ON. 

 

Geesh....

 

Take those off the board for now, while I repeat that one a few times.  

 

New, Valid test runs using @Sir Myshkin's WP slotting, also used the prior attacks slotting for Radiation:

______________________________________

 

1. 6:03

2. 5:54

3. 5:58

4. 5:47 - really good, lots of crits, light spawns

5. 6:11

6. 6:32 - meh, some misses

 

Added 4 more tests to round this out

7. 6:27

8: 6:42 - bad - 2 runners, extra boss almost died

9: 5:51 - very good, clean lots of crits

10. 6:14

 

Makes a lot more sense then my previous runs.  Had 1 DNF due to death in here as well.  Had a second DNF due to death in the added runs. 

Edited September 26, 2019 by Lord_Cyclone91
After the first 2 new tests, it's clear I had bosses spawning as Lts. I'm so sorry guys. I'll note them back on the other post and put new ones in here. New valid runs added.

[Galaxy Brain]

Thank you @Lord_Cyclone91! I've updated the numbers in the sheet as well (I need to update the OP come to think of it...)

 

Current standings:

 

Playtesters: 5

Total missions tracked: 94

Total Average completion time:  6:05:07

Current set rankings:

 

 

[Lord_Cyclone91]

 

I got in 10 runs , this time with Ice Melee.  With the Standard Setup with @Sir Myshkin's slotting with Willpower.  

All attacks using the standard slotting.  3 Dam / 1 Acc/ 1 End Red / 1 Rech

 

Exception was Ice Patch which I often skip on end game builds, and sIotted it with 3 Rech. 

 

1. 6:58

2. 6:40 - felt 'perfect' 

3. 7:20 -  meh, 2 runners

4. 7:03  - felt 'decent' but was north of 7:00?

5. 7:46 - bad, 2 runners, a bunch of misses Big Boss right by another boss

 

6. 6:54 - felt pretty good, couple of easy spawns

7. 7:12  

8. 6:48 - nice clean run 

9: 7:38 - bad run, a couple of runners, misses - low crits

10: 7:53 - awful, lots of runners, tons of misses - tough spawns

 

Typical scenario was group up 2 spawns, drop Ice Patch -> BU -> Frozen Aura -> Frost (jumping) - > Freezing Touch toughest target -> GIS tough target -> Frost...fill with Fists...repeat. 

 

Best I could do was 6:40, so I thought to myself "Geesh...suck less would ya." 

 

Overall, it was a stark contrast to Fire to operate in almost complete safety with mobs doing the flippy flop including bosses.  Kill rate overall felt pretty sluggish.   Health was hardly ever in the danger zone and stayed above 1/2 most of the time, with two groups.  ZERO DNFs due to death and only one moment of real peril. 

 

A lot of mitigation here, but the clear speed for me wasn't there overall.  Maybe a better player can clear it faster, but it was fairly slow going for me and I have a 50 Ice/DA scrapper on Live now.  Could really have benefited from Cross Punch, I think.   I thought I was pretty decent with Ice, but my Live build is pretty different from this one, with different tactics too. Someone else should try this and see if it's just me sucking. 

[Lord_Cyclone91]

I'm running out of sets that I have a lot of experience with, but one exception is Spines.  I probably have the most time on Spines scrappers and brutes going all the way back to original Live. I made a Bio/Spines tank back in May and he's fun to play. I'll see if I can give Spines a whirl after dinner.  Beyond that, I have some experience with Electric and Psi and only a little experience with Broadsword from 7-8 years ago, and a bit with Axe. After that, it's really not much, so I think I might be done after Spines, Elec and Psi.    I won't taint the results with sets I'm not familiar with, so I'll likely limit it to those, unless you guys think otherwise. 

 

Cheers

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Thank you @Lord_Cyclone91! I've updated the numbers in the sheet as well (I need to update the OP come to think of it...)

 

Current standings:

 

Playtesters: 5

Total missions tracked: 94

Total Average completion time:  6:05:07

Current set rankings:

 

 

Woot for Claws!!!

[Haijinx]

So fire is lagging because of the lack of mitigation?

 

 

[Lord_Cyclone91]

Mitigation was a concern, yes. Also, Fire Breath seems like it doesn't do as well as Frost or Proton Sweep for instance, and has that ghastly long cast time. FSC uptime is decent but often not optimal for just a couple of foes., especially when you want it up for the next nearby spawn.  The set's pretty ST oriented, it seems, and did well when I was working on the bosses a bit before dragging them to a new spawn.  

 

That, and there was definitely a line there I was straddling about new spawns, since it seemed easier to get in over your head as far as incoming damage. 

[Lord_Cyclone91]

Okay, I was able to do 10 runs  with Spines.  With the Standard Setup with @Sir Myshkin's slotting of Willpower.  

All attacks using the standard slotting.  3 Dam / 1 Acc/ 1 End Red / 1 Rech

 

Exception was of course Quills, which I used the Irradiated Ground slotting of 3 Dam / 1 Acc / 2 End Red. 

 

I took Barb Swipe as a filler over Impale since it has the terrible, wind up pitcher activation and isn't great DPA. 

 

This was one of the sets I was really looking forward to since I have more experience on this one than perhaps any of the others. 

 

1. 6:02

2. 5:53

3. 5:47 - good run, no real runners

4. 6:05 

5. 6:36 - not good, 2 runners, a few misses, lack of crits

 

6. 6:23 - meh, extra boss, crits seemed a little low

7. 5:31 - basically 'perfect' with relatively light spawns  

8. 6:19 - not great, clean run a couple of runners too 

9: 6:54 - horrible run, tons of runners including bosses, several key misses and bad positioning by me

10: 5:42 - very good, would have been great except for multiple runners on the last spawn

 

Again, most often I was grouping up a spawns then BU -> Throw Spines (jumping) -> Spine Burst - > Ripper -> Lunge tough target -> Throw Spines...fill with Barb Swipe...repeat. 

 

Overall, the Kill rate felt good to very good similar to Radiation in some ways. Similar also in that it has some decent KD mitigation and the slows were discernible also.  That said, it's not Ice and I had 1 DNF due to death and a few other close calls, a couple very close indeed. Health was in the danger zone on those occasions and survived between 1/4 and 1/2 a lot of the time. That regen makes it back pretty quick though, so it didn't slow me down very often.  

 

There's decent mitigation here, and the clear speed for me was good to very good. Some of that I suspect is that I'm just better at Spines than Fire or Ice perhaps.  The other noteworthy element is how much a Quasinart Quills is, similar to Irradiated Ground. It chews up the minions letting you concentrate more on hitting the harder targets and general positioning.  

Edited September 27, 2019 by Lord_Cyclone91
typo

[Haijinx]

Nice.  I've always found spines teammates seem to do fairly well.

[Galaxy Brain]

Started Dark Melee..... yikes. My first run took  8:37, the next was faster at 7:43 due to more boss spawns.... this is just  s l o w

 

[Lord_Cyclone91]

5 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Started Dark Melee..... yikes. My first run took  8:37, the next was faster at 7:43 due to more boss spawns.... this is just  s l o w

 

Yeah, my first practice run with Ice was 8:03 I think.  I said "surely not" and kept going with it, but there were signs it could turn out to be kind of slow. 

[Galaxy Brain]

I can take down targets easily, it's just that dark has essentially no AoE even with Soul Drain 😞

[Hopeling]

I can do Dual Blades and Street Justice, and I'd like to try Fiery Melee too just because I'm surprised to see it one of the slowest sets. But if it's a mitigation thing, that makes sense.

[Sir Myshkin]

15 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

This is a set I am very familiar with, and with slotting everything, including follow up, for 3 dam / 1 Acc/End/Rech I was able to tear through the tests no problem. I actually used Shockwave as a herding tool, queuing it up as I approached a mob and knocked them into another mob as I jumped over and began shredding. Halfway through that, I could repeat and forcefully herd the minions / etc into more targets or the corners / walls of the map.

Hmm, those times are interesting. When you mentioned Eviscerate it dawned on me that when I took my power selections, I passed over that one because I was still thinking in an IO world (and the general fact I hate that power), but it is a cone and would up the ante a bit in speed. I also favored recharge over damage in FU. I'm curious which is the more relevant difference.

 

So far, though, looks like the world of SO's is balanced to 6:00.

 

Edit: I went back out of curiosity and put Eviscerate into the build and ran a couple more missions:

1. 5:01 <-- No Runners
2. 5:28 <-- Runners (lots)
3. 5:30 <-- Runners (lots)

 

At that point it was pretty clear that if I had to chase down runners (what is Taunt even doing at that point?!) I was going to get stuck with that 5:30ish time and kinda said "Yup, I'm good." Eviscerate was the element of differential there for sure, cause I slotted Follow Up the same as I had before (recharge, not damage). If I targeted back in a spawn I could catch a lot more and didn't have to rely on Spin cycling so often. Still stuck to the tactic of jumping above the spawn to fire Shockwave down into it, and tried to keep Focus to tag runners, but just ended up with two or three skedaddling on me in opposite directions.

Edited September 27, 2019 by Sir Myshkin

[Croax]

Wow, i like what you guys are doing here. Keep up the good work!

 

Who would have thought that claws are that good?

And TW beeing top again, i bet in real teams claws would even surpass TW because you will hit thin air more often than we might want to admit.

[Haijinx]

It looks like Claws with its awesome base recharge and decent AOE (3 attacks) is really strong on SOs 

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 hours ago, Croax said:

Who would have thought that claws are that good?

Me. I would have thought this. And have ever since Castle and BAB did the rework on it way back when. Even my claws/fa burn farmer is hanging with the big boys well in that arena. Claws, not the best at anything, but real freakin good at all of it.

[Galaxy Brain]

9 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Hmm, those times are interesting. When you mentioned Eviscerate it dawned on me that when I took my power selections, I passed over that one because I was still thinking in an IO world (and the general fact I hate that power), but it is a cone and would up the ante a bit in speed. I also favored recharge over damage in FU. I'm curious which is the more relevant difference.

I don't mind it due to the wide area it covers + increased crit. Its nice to have when leveling claws to toss out and clear out minions.

 

As for Damage vs Recharge on Follow Up, as a straight up attack it is not bad and has better DPA than the T1 and T2 claw attacks. Until you get enough Recharge to consistently double-stack or even triple-stack it, it is totally worth it to slot for damage to get better DPS from it as an attack than a buff.

 

Quote

So far, though, looks like the world of SO's is balanced to 6:00.

 

I wouldn't say balanced to that so much as that appears to be the average for the test. Though we are seeing a pattern emerge where Mitigation 100% matters for how effectively you can clear a map, and there is a bell curve where being too safe sacrifices speed. 

 

Fire is *all* damage, but that means it has to be wary of aggro and has no means to lock down an opponent to leverage the damage. In theory it *should* be blazing through spawns but it can only do that for so long before it's stopped. Opposite of that, Dark and Ice are very safe but do not have the damage to clear quickly due to sacrificing damaging powers for utility or safety.

 

On the note of Dark and Fire, these two to me show that AoE matters, period. 

 

Lets say a boss deals 100 DPS. A LT deals 50, and a Minion deals 25. By themselves, none are particularly  dangerous especially for Dark melee who can essentially ruin a single boss' damage potential via -ToHit. But, when you are facing 1 Boss, 2 LTs, and 7 minions that is 100 + 100 + 175 dps coming towards you. Dark can reliably negate either 100, 50, or 25 DPS at a time where sets with stronger AoE powers can wipe out tons of potential incoming DPS before it becomes a problem. Fire also seems to lack instant AoE damage outside FSC which is kinda odd given how fire sets outside of Brute/Scrap fire melee have great AoE.

Edited September 27, 2019 by Galaxy Brain

[Lord_Cyclone91]

Okay, had time for 5 runs with Electric.  With the Standard Setup with @Sir Myshkin's slotting of Willpower.  

All attacks using the standard slotting.  3 Dam / 1 Acc/ 1 End Red / 1 Rech

 

Exception was Lightning Rod, which I used a slotting of 3 Dam / 1 Acc / 2 Rech.  I would never give up that extra 10s recharge for 3 end, and adding back in made a nice difference after a practice run. Having it up every 55s is just....bleh.   

 

My Elec Melee toons are a tank and a Stalker, so I was a little wary of it here, without a ton of scrapper experience on it. 

 

1. 6:47

2. 7:39 - tough spawns, I kinda sucked 

3. 7:28 - I wasn't good, runners and extra boss, misses

4. 6:35 - felt decent 

5. 6:22 - good clean run, 1 runner, light spawns

 

Added more runs

6. 7:24 - bad spawns, lots of runners, extra boss (geesh)

7. 6:36 - good run, 1 runner

8. 6:27 - better, found a groove, good crits

9. 5:52 - felt 'perfect' easy spawns, light bosses, nice crits

10. 6:41 - not great, extra boss some bad misses

 

There was a huge variance based on how many bosses I ended up with and if they conned +1 or even.  I found myself having to use Lightning Clap on occasion to slow down damage and buy myself some time to whittle them down. Health ran low-ish and I found myelf surviving around a 1/4 to 1/3 health pretty often, a few times did a round about grouping of a spawn to buy myself a chunk of health before diving in.  Original run #9 was DNF due to death, when I let my health slip and Clap whiffed so only 1 total. 

 

I'll try to add some more runs later on, but this was a little disappointing overall.  There's pretty good KD mitigation, but the ST is just kinda weak.  Also LR uptime seems to be an issue on this basic setup.  I gave up the End Red for an extra Rech after the first practice run and seemed to do better on the second one, but it needs even more recharge I think. 

 

Overall, it was terribly varied based on the spawns, conning and bosses.  I found myself glad to have Lightning Clap as an "oh crap" button to by me a few critical seconds here or there. Probably a better driver could get more out of it than me, but I expected better.  Note: I think I was better on the second group too, so take that bears mentioning. 

Edited September 27, 2019 by Lord_Cyclone91
Had time to add five more runs over lunch

[Galaxy Brain]

@Lord_Cyclone91, what is your strat going into each mob?