Scrapper Melee Primary Testing: "Standard" environment

[Demon Shell]

4 hours ago, Infinitum said:

That's kinda what you need to see though, how something like TW will compare with a set that will starve it vs other sets.

 

If you keep feeding what it needs you won't ever see if it's end hunger outweighs its capabilities across the board.

 

We know it's the best hands down if you build for it with sets that facilitate its needs, but how does it compare when a defense set kicks its butt and starves it or has no management that facilitates it?  Will it still outpace other sets? Or is it even worth taking on some sets?

Fire Melee can't sustain on /dark. I know, I had one (a Brute) pre-IOs. So of course Titan Weapon can't. All that proves is something is wrong with /dark at the SO level (it's Dark Regeneration, it costs 20 endurance with 2 end redux). That's not news.

 

If your concern is wholly based on TW, then you've missed something important. None of these tests are going to prove where Titan stands until you incorporate Epic Pools. Every other set can benefit greatly from Epics, except Titan. Titan might gain from throwing a Ball Lightning at the start of a fight while jumping in, but anywhere else is going to interrupt Momentum. If there's more than one enemy alive, Dark Melee is going to be using Ball Lightning on cooldown. That is a radical shift for a set with no 360 AoE spammable.

 

My point is to apply pressure to see where the other sets stand relative to one another. Is Claw's resource management so good it never has to stop attacking to get endurance back? How good is Parry when it's your only source of defense/tohit reduction? Does Ice Melee ever have to heal? Do these things influence clear times to any noticeable degree? You don't (or at least shouldn't) need to remove endurance/heal sustain as an option to test this. You just need to be penalized from a DPS standpoint for using them. And if none of this is true and none of these things matter, then something is wrong (because that would mean DPS really is the only thing that matters, and all the extra tools melee sets have aren't good enough). Either way, this is something you can directly compare with the previous Willpower results. There is nothing you can compare between Willpower and DA; they couldn't be more different.

 

But if you want to apply as much endurance pressure as is reasonable, then /SR. It has no endurance recovery and, like Electric, Quickness will increase your recharge, causing you to use your more expensive powers more often. The testing parameters don't necessitate it, but you'd just have to keep Practiced Brawler up and pretend they do. Being constantly interrupted with PB would also hurt Titan. Additionally, in theory, /SR is balanced to not need a heal (I know mind had one, but I'm not going to pretend I was a very good /SR). This would be a good opportunity to test that. And if some additional mitigation is necessary, how do the sets that have that compare to those that don't.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Demon Shell
Clarification

[Infinitum]

33 minutes ago, Demon Shell said:

Fire Melee can't sustain on /dark. I know, I had one (a Brute) pre-IOs. So of course Titan Weapon can't. All that proves is something is wrong with /dark at the SO level (it's Dark Regeneration, it costs 20 endurance with 2 end redux). That's not news.

 

If your concern is wholly based on TW, then you've missed something important. None of these tests are going to prove where Titan stands until you incorporate Epic Pools. Every other set can benefit greatly from Epics, except Titan. Titan might gain from throwing a Ball Lightning at the start of a fight while jumping in, but anywhere else is going to interrupt Momentum. If there's more than one enemy alive, Dark Melee is going to be using Ball Lightning on cooldown. That is a radical shift for a set with no 360 AoE spammable.

 

My point is to apply pressure to see where the other sets stand relative to one another. Is Claw's resource management so good it never has to stop attacking to get endurance back? How good is Parry when it's your only source of defense/tohit reduction? Does Ice Melee ever have to heal? Do these things influence clear times to any noticeable degree? You don't (or at least shouldn't) need to remove endurance/heal sustain as an option to test this. You just need to be penalized from a DPS standpoint for using them. And if none of this is true and none of these things matter, then something is wrong (because that would mean DPS really is the only thing that matters, and all the extra tools melee sets have aren't good enough). Either way, this is something you can directly compare with the previous Willpower results. There is nothing you can compare between Willpower and DA; they couldn't be more different.

 

But if you want to apply as much endurance pressure as is reasonable, then /SR. It has no endurance recovery and, like Electric, Quickness will increase your recharge, causing you to use your more expensive powers more often. The testing parameters don't necessitate it, but you'd just have to keep Practiced Brawler up and pretend they do. Being constantly interrupted with PB would also hurt Titan. Additionally, in theory, /SR is balanced to not need a heal (I know mind had one, but I'm not going to pretend I was a very good /SR). This would be a good opportunity to test that. And if some additional mitigation is necessary, how do the sets that have that compare to those that don't.

Most people would agree that /dark, invul, or SR are great defensive sets.

 

Especially if you consider SR puts you in a category where you are as survivable as a tank or brute.

 

It's not a problem with the armor or the attack set.  But the synergy.  If you can only tolerate to play TW on the sets that feed it does that really make it the best or an outlier when you can play X on everything and it's even across the board?

 

Even on /Elec it was hard IMO until you got power sink.  I know a few people that dropped it because they couldn't get along with the quirks of it.

 

In the endgame Elec is a great set to run TW. Just as SR, invul, and dark are great armor sets.

 

You wouldn't want any of those toned down in survivability just to add more end management features though.

 

If only a handful of sets can yield a good result does that still make it an outlier when X number of sets can't run it especially when it's barely an outlier on a set that supports it?

[Haijinx]

No real need to test all the melees 

 

Just test Titan Weapons with other secondaries 

[Galaxy Brain]

On the note of sets "feeding" TW, most all armor sets do have end management. What could be interesting is just rolling TW/Dark on SOs for 5 and then IOs for 5 and seeing if the most end heavy secondary with IOs becomes a non issue.

 

We could also roll fire armor and just not use burn...?

 

SR or Nin would also be good given their either end hungry or clicky nature. I lean more towards SR as it is more volatile and had an offensive boost.

 

 

Edited November 22, 2019 by Galaxy Brain

[Infinitum]

4 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

On the note of sets "feeding" TW, most all armor sets do have end management. What could be interesting is just rolling TW/Dark on SOs for 5 and then IOs for 5 and seeing if the most end heavy secondary with IOs becomes a non issue.

 

We could also roll fire armor and just not use burn...?

 

SR or Nin would also be good given their either end hungry or clicky nature. I lean more towards SR as it is more volatile and had an offensive boost.

 

 

Willpower, radiation, bio, fire, elec, energy, regen are the only ones that have reliable end management. 

 

The others do in the form of the T9 with a crash, some severe than others. Invul, shield, sr - all only have T9 crashers with + recovery.

 

Ice has hibernate

 

Stone has nothing

 

Dark has nothing.

[Galaxy Brain]

Wp, bio, rad, and regen all have a passive + rec

 

Elec and energy get a drain and a discount

 

Fire and ice get drains

 

Nin has a +end button

 

Invuln, SR, Dark, and Shield (and stone armor) are the only ones without any built in management.  9/13~14 armor sets is about 67% majority. The split between passive and active end recovery is sort of 50/50 as well with Nin being an outlier where you get "free" end, and elec/ea having doubled down on end tools.

[Demon Shell]

Invulnerability's +def scale from Invincibility is so extreme the set's survival goes up the more enemies are around you. Perfectly normal from an end use stand point, but it's survivability is an oddity. That's going to mitigate the value of the survival tools from your melee sets.

 

Stone (in addition to not being available on Scrappers) has both fewer toggles to run due to Granite, and a reduced recharge resulting in your more expensive attacks being used less. That is (forced) reduced end usage. And, if you're not running Granite, you're end usage is bizarrely high on SOs. Why does Mud Pots cost so much? Why do Rock/Brimstone/Crystal/Mineral have above average end costs each when you also need to run Rooted? Outside of IOs, the set has a lot more wrong with it than just the extreme -dam/-rech on Granite.

 

Shield can't run all weapon sets so it's not suitable for testing.

 

And while /Dark is a high performance, end-game set (I know, I have one), it's not balanced at the SO level (unless you're a Tanker). Dark Regeneration costs more than a nuke to overheal you by the hundreds. CoF's accuracy is too low. OG would heavily benefit pure DPS sets because the enemies in the test only have one melee attack, mitigating the value of most CC. And, at the same rate, it's also going to lower clear times on sets without KD/heavy AoE as the mobs just stagger out of range (and heavily benefit sets with Stuns as you can stack them on a boss to reduce incoming damage and avoid using Dark Regen).

 

If you're looking at sets with no end management tools, that don't have some strange outlier mechanics going on, that leaves SR. SR has fewer toggles, but Quickness will increase frequency of end-heavy attacks. I'd rather a set with at least some level of end management and a damage aura be used, but SR doesn't have an aura at all on Scrappers. That should at least create a different atmosphere than Willpower.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Demon Shell
Clarification

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, Demon Shell said:

Invulnerability's +def scale from Invincibility is so extreme the set's survival goes up the more enemies are around you. Perfectly normal from an end use stand point, but it's survivability is an oddity. That's going to mitigate the value of the survival tools from your melee sets.

 

Stone (in addition to not being available on Scrappers) has both fewer toggles to run due to Granite, and a reduced recharge resulting in your more expensive attacks being used less. That is (forced) reduced end usage. And, if you're not running Granite, you're end usage is bizarrely high on SOs. Why does Mud Pots cost so much? Why do Rock/Brimstone/Crystal/Mineral have above average end costs each when you also need to run Rooted? Outside of IOs, the set has a lot more wrong with it than just the extreme -dam/-rech on Granite.

 

Shield can't run all weapon sets so it's not suitable for testing.

 

And while /Dark is a high performance, end-game set (I know, I have one), it's not balanced at the SO level (unless you're a Tanker). Dark Regeneration costs more than a nuke to overheal you by the hundreds. CoF's accuracy is too low. OG would heavily benefit pure DPS sets because the enemies in the test only have one melee attack, mitigating the value of most CC. And, at the same rate, it's also going to lower clear times on sets without KD/heavy AoE as the mobs just stagger out of range (and heavily benefit sets with Stuns as you can stack them on a boss to reduce incoming damage and avoid using Dark Regen).

 

If you're looking at sets with no end management tools, that don't have some strange outlier mechanics going on, that leaves SR. SR has fewer toggles, but Quickness will increase frequency of end-heavy attacks. I'd rather a set with at least some level of end management and a damage aura be used, but SR doesn't have an aura at all on Scrappers. That should at least create a different atmosphere than Willpower.

Yeah I agree with that with SR, but also wouldnt mind seeing it paired with invul.

[Sir Myshkin]

On 11/22/2019 at 1:48 PM, Demon Shell said:

And while /Dark is a high performance, end-game set (I know, I have one), it's not balanced at the SO level (unless you're a Tanker). Dark Regeneration costs more than a nuke to overheal you by the hundreds. CoF's accuracy is too low. OG would heavily benefit pure DPS sets because the enemies in the test only have one melee attack, mitigating the value of most CC. And, at the same rate, it's also going to lower clear times on sets without KD/heavy AoE as the mobs just stagger out of range (and heavily benefit sets with Stuns as you can stack them on a boss to reduce incoming damage and avoid using Dark Regen).

The very specific reasons you've pointed out here are the very reasons I suggested Dark Armor as a polar opposite to Willpower. It is an endurance heavy set, it requires consideration to use at the SO level, but it is not unusable, and you will not be consistently running every toggle. It's situational awareness. The very fact that a player may get slowed down by endurance use, in my opinion, is a necessary metric in evaluating the long-con of this test. The fact that we can create net-neutral builds with IO's washes out most people's endurance woes, but if anyone is really going to show the base line of performance for the attack sets, their damage performance is just as relevant as the endurance performance. How much does their physical cost actually put a toll on the set, and is it fairly balanced?

 

The additional mitigation tools in Dark also dramatically change the dynamic, which is again super relevant here. Oppressive Gloom, if left on, functionally shuts off the ability to herd that so many of us executed. It would have to be cycled off and on, taking time out of the run to execute the toggle. Cloak of Fear is the same way, yes it has an abysmal accuracy, but we're only challenged against even-con foes so 1-2 Acc SO's will be enough to just barely balance out against those minions (the only thing we'd be effecting anyway).

 

Willpower was very-much a net-neutral set, but it's the only one so plainly unbiased. Just like as mentioned, things in the other sets shift performance in different direction. Super Reflexes gives Quickness, impacts endurance imbalance, but it also lacks a heal, and on SO's for a Scrapper it'll barely breach 30% Defense without CJ, Weave, Maneuvers (which only CJ was allowed on the SO test). Ran the build quick, if I three-slot every single defense power--including CJ--I get 33.3% positional, and with Maneuvers/Weave 42.7% (close enough to Soft Cap). Willpower at least had resistances to deal with the primarily s/l of the test, and a significant regeneration boost. If you add those additional toggles into the mix you're now encroaching right back on the argument against Dark Armor (end heavy with no counter balance) except in a worse scenario because SR has no self-heal.

 

I don't feel that SR is going to play-out (when we restrict its support tools) in a positive way. Ninjitsu would be a better choice if playing a low-rent version of a defense sets abilities is the desired goal. Ninjitsu will net the same defense values as SR, but at least have a self-heal to regulate damage with, and a situational safety tool (Blinding Powder) it could use a few times in the run. Invulnerability will just play out as another Willpower Run. If changing the dynamic, but in a small way is the chaser, then do Energy Armor as it has +Rech, additional +Heal, and +End management, a threat-generating toggle, and probably the highest level of defense possible on SO's without Weave/Maneuvers.

 

But I still stand by this being the most reasonable next step:

Spoiler

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.962
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 49 Natural Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Radiation Melee
Secondary Power Set: Dark Armor
Power Pool: Leaping

Hero Profile:
Level 1: [Empty]
Level 1: Dark Embrace -- ResDam(A), ResDam(3), ResDam(3), EndRdx(11)
Level 2: Death Shroud -- Acc(A), Acc(5), Dmg(5), Dmg(7), EndRdx(7), EndRdx(9)
Level 4: Murky Cloud -- ResDam(A), ResDam(9), ResDam(11), EndRdx(13)
Level 6: Combat Jumping -- DefBuff(A)
Level 8: [Empty]
Level 10: Obsidian Shield -- ResDam(A), ResDam(13), ResDam(15), EndRdx(15)
Level 12: [Empty]
Level 14: [Empty]
Level 16: Dark Regeneration -- Acc(A), Acc(17), EndRdx(17), EndRdx(19), Dmg(19), Dmg(21)
Level 18: [Empty]
Level 20: Cloak of Darkness -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(21), DefBuff(23), EndRdx(23)
Level 22: [Empty]
Level 24: [Empty]
Level 26: [Empty]
Level 28: Cloak of Fear -- Acc(A), Acc(29), EndRdx(29), EndRdx(31)
Level 30: [Empty]
Level 32: [Empty]
Level 35: Oppressive Gloom -- Acc(A), Acc(36)
Level 38: Soul Transfer -- RechRdx(A)
Level 41: [Empty]
Level 44: [Empty]
Level 47: [Empty]
Level 49: [Empty]
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run(A)
Level 2: Health -- Heal(A), Heal(27), Heal(27)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod(A), EndMod(25), EndMod(25)
------------

 

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[Demon Shell]

3 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

The very specific reasons you've pointed out here are the very reasons I suggested Dark Armor as a polar opposite to Willpower.

I never said it wasn't. I said:

On 11/21/2019 at 9:34 PM, Demon Shell said:

I would specifically avoid Dark Armor. Not just because going in the complete opposite direction isn't going to create an average by comparing Will to Dark. But Dark Armor is brutal without IOs. It is unfun. You're not going to want to play half these characters.

You are not going to take the clear times of Willpower and Dark Armor, average them, and get anything meaningful out of it. A set with nothing to manage and a set with everything to manage is just going to give you two, unequal extremes. You need an average performing set. A power or two to click, that's it. No concern given for when to run what toggles, like DA, because no other set traditionally does that.

 

And to that end, I don't think it should be SR. The first set I suggested was /Electric, which has just as many end-return/heal tools as /Energy but is a resist set and should provide more stable survival across all testing. But if I could go back in time and tell you two trials were going to be run, I'd have said to do /Electric and /Energy. They're the two most similar sets. And from those you could then draw very strong conclusions, such as do some sets perform better with a damage aura or a buff/debuff aura? At the SO level, is it better to stack resist/def on every set that can, or layer? If things like these don't matter (and, for example, every set just clears 10% faster on Energy), something is wrong with the attack set balancing and you have strong numbers for where and why this is happening.

 

If you want to test them under endurance stress, don't use Power Sink/Energy Drain. Is Energize with a 50/50 uptime enough for even TW? If so, grab some greens and don't use either move.

[Sir Myshkin]

1 hour ago, Demon Shell said:

You are not going to take the clear times of Willpower and Dark Armor, average them, and get anything meaningful out of it.

Why would you average them in the first place? They're going to reflect two different themes. Going from a set specifically chosen to be as unbiased and non-impacting as possible, to a set that is designed around maximizing mitigation tools in multitudes. Dark Armor gives the "what happens when the secondary gets involved" scenario.

 

1 hour ago, Demon Shell said:

You need an average performing set.

We don't need an average performing set, we already have that baseline. We have a core response value for what each Attack Set fundamentally performs at both in an SO and IO environment. No matter what set gets picked, it's going to change the dynamic of that initial test because the metrics of the secondary are going to be scaling in different directions.

 

1 hour ago, Demon Shell said:

The first set I suggested was /Electric

Your only linchpin for using Electric Armor is in that it provides endurance tools, and at the core of it the only one key aspect that it would grant is that it also has a Damage Aura, which is the only altering unique aspect compared to Willpower. Given that I believe the majority of what damage is done by the included minions is S/L, we're not looking at changing a significant avenue by going "full Resistance" here, given we started at what was primarily resistance driven mitigation to begin with. If the intent and purpose of any further testing is regulated around the idea of finding the curve, then there needs to be more significant variation from the baseline to build that curve.

 

We can just as easily run Dark Armor without OG or CoF (typically most only do one or the other, never both) and end up with the same performance as Electric Armor sans endurance tools. But, again, I still stand by the fact that, in order to get the raw accuracy of end cost in the primaries, it's in a set that doesn't have an inherent tool for it, and if a test is going to be performed then it should maximize utility and provide multiple answers as possible, which Dark Armor does. Raw Cost (can run everything but OG/CoF and try to minimize the need for Dark Regen), and Kit Mitigation (OG/CoF), while also giving access to a Damage Aura. It's the extreme end of the curve. Ultimately, not my final say, and if I'm interpreting @Galaxy Brain's intentions on these tests wrong, then so be it, but as I've understood these tests are primarily about the performance attributes of the Attack Sets--which has been established--and is now progressing into the impact of enhanced tool kits in the armors and how they alter the performance of the Attack Sets.

 

One of the key driving factors in all of the tests was how any one set was able to mitigate/control the spawns inherently, and the armor sets that impact mitigation and control the most are Bio Armor, Ice Armor, and Dark Armor. An honorable mention to Radiation Armor for double AoE access, damage as a form of mitigation. A true full-encompassing value of every sets impact on the primary is the only definitive measure for showing how each one alters the game play of each Attack Set, but that's a truck-load of testing. I wouldn't say repeating close-variant tests is worthwhile if we can easily fill in the expected gaps between sets. Rolling a test character takes a considerable amount of time, especially 20 times. I'd rather test one build for two or three things than one build for one thing, and then another build (very much just like the other one minus one thing) for another.

 

Don't get me wrong Shell, I get what you're driving towards and agree in the long-term the information would be useful, I just don't agree that, in the short term side of this, that Electric Armor is going to provide a worthwhile data point when just compared to Willpower. There's just not enough variance there beyond the additional damage aura, which we know will improve times for all sets, as an obvious factor. It really does come down to who does the final tests, of course. Being one who's done a few throws at tests here (and in general towards a ton of other stuff), I'd sooner make the leap towards what provides the greatest metric return when only a few points can be evaluated immediately.

 

1 hour ago, Demon Shell said:

If things like these don't matter (and, for example, every set just clears 10% faster on Energy), something is wrong with the attack set balancing and you have strong numbers for where and why this is happening.

Small note on this: Energy Aura not only provides +Recharge, it also provides compensating +End, and the highest SO based values for Defense. That set is going to show an abnormal curve on SO's no matter which way you look at it. Not as much as Bio Armor, I'd reckon, but that doesn't mean that there's a problem with the attack set, but simply where Energy Aura sits on the curve from "better" to "worst" in the performance impact.

 

Edit to add, cause I realized I didn't complete my thought here: Each set is going to show a variance difference off the base line depending on how uniquely it benefits the attack set paired with it. This is why Bio Armor is such an extreme case. The fact that it has an easily compensated offset to gain an offensive boost and a -Res component into its tool kit means pretty much every single set paired with it is going to perform considerably better than versus any other set. That's not an imbalance on attack sets, but a uniquely attributable side effect to Bio Armor's Offensive Mode. And that in itself is a whole different pile of mess. Being that, I'm not sure what you're getting at with your statement when it comes to the Armors themselves, as attack set balance is not one-in-the-same with armor balance.

Edited November 25, 2019 by Sir Myshkin

[Galaxy Brain]

So, one thing I have wanted to do for a bit was reorganize my listing with all the tracked factors taken into account. These include:

1. Average Clear Time
2. Standard Deviation
3. Best Time
4. Worst Time
5. Difference (between Best and Worst)
6. Safety

We have been looking at only the average clear time without taking everything we measured into account. I went though my personal runs to sort all these factors as seen prior, but I did want to touch on the Safety ranking real quick.

 

 

In my personal experience with the sets, when I had runs where I died I would end up with 2 deaths conveniently enough. Looking back at either 0 or two deaths, it was then somewhat easy to separate the groups into 2 tiers each:

• A score of 0 meant that the set is essentially invincible vs the test enemies.
• A score of 1 meant that while there were no deaths, you still took some bumps and bruises where you could have died if you were sloppy.
• A score of 2 was set due to these sets having 2 DNF's each thanks to factors such as unreliable mitigation or slow animations on mitigating attacks.
• A score of 3 was then reserved for the two sets that I felt the least safe while playing and actually had to slow down and retreat at times to survive. 

 

This screenshot also shows how I broke down the ranking across 6 different criteria. The Name and the raw number are self explanatory, and like with the time stat on all other fields the scores are ranked smallest to largest for the Safety. The average score is shown above.

 

The Gap column shows breaks between each power set's score, and if a gap is greater than or equal to the average gap (shown on top) it is highlighted and becomes a Tier Division.

 

Tiers are on the left, from S tier down to F tier (not shown here) and next to them will be a number from 1 (S) to 7 (F). The worse the performance, the higher the Tier number. Next to the Gap column is a field where the power set's score is divided by the average score to get a value for how much better or worse than average it performed. If a set gets a 0.80 here, it is 20% better than average, and likewise 20% worse than average if it has a 1.20 here. 

 

The last column is the Weighted Score. Taking the Tier Number and adding it to the value from average nets a number between 1 and ~9ish per powerset, per criteria. 

 

 

 

Adding up all the weighted scores, and sorting from the lowest to the highest we get this:

 

 

Full Breakdown: Galaxy Tiers Tab

 

Based on my own experiences, this feels about right on SO's given our mission criteria. Though I could see Psy moving a bit higher up with more practice and Elec Melee may feel lower than it should be based on the pairing.

 

B Tier seems to be a sweet spot where the solid sets are. A and C tiers are essentially either slightly better or slightly worse, with them all being within +/- 20% of average performance. Note: The distinction was made for C tier based not on the gap between War Mace and Martial Arts' score, but by the % away from average and how closely the sets with -11%ish values are.

 

Above 20% differences, we see S Tier with Katana and Staff Fighting on the high end, and then surprisingly Elec Melee in D tier and Fiery Melee below in E tier. The former S tier sets have great ST and AoE dps capabilities, on top of having a parry and soft control options. Essentially all you could want in melee sets. On the latter end, Fiery Melee's sheer lack of mitigation was incredibly detrimental when combined with how poor Fire Breath is as a secondary AoE. When compared to Ice Melee's frost and (Ice Stomp), on top of the mitigation it is clear to see which temperature wins out in a vacuum. Elec Melee's score is a shocker given the set's reputation as a powerhouse, but on SO's only and without offensive support from the secondary I found the AoE's either too slow or finnicky (missing Chain induction stinks), and outside Thunderstrike your other mitigation options are either RNG or Thunderclap which scatters enemies and slows you down further and ruins your AoEs. This lead to Elec Melee having poor Standard Deviation, Worst Time and Difference stats, as well as being on the bottom half of Safety. With a proper secondary and IO support it gets a huge boost in performance for sure.

 

Then, we have the S+ Tier and the F tier that are over 40% from average, with S+ being 57% better than average and a whole 19% better than the next best tier. On the high end, Titan Weapons has everything that the S Tier sets had in the last paragraph but just cranked to 11. It simply hits that much harder per swing to pump it up to the top of the line for all the time stats, and having the 2nd best time in a run behind Spines as well as having the "best" Worst Time. On the flip side, Dark Melee sits at the bottom for reasons similar to why Elec Melee was so low. With essentially no AoE coverage due to how Shadow Maul works and how the drains do "Participation" damage, it is very hard to actually leverage Soul Drain's potential for clearing maps effectively aside from beating the crap out of bosses. That said, that ended up being a bit dangerous as you could not fully leverage your -ToHit in a crowd due to how the AoEs work as well which left you vulnerable in ways that other sets that could sweep and knock down foes or boost their own stats / kill minions quickly did not have to account for. This lead to 2 DNF runs for me as even though you can have a field day vs 1 target it's dangerous in a crowd unless you have tools to deal further AoE or mitigate multiple enemies.  (seems to have been built for dark/dark... hmmm)

 

---

 

So, when it comes to further secondary pairings I had to think on it a bit, and we will need something that fits the following criteria in order to have more drastic results:

 

1. Preferably has a damage aura or some other direct, AoE damage potential. 
   1. Sets that did not fair well had issues clearing out a bunch of mobs efficiently and lead to more hits being thrown at them. A set like Spines had 0 issues dancing through mobs due to being able to delete minions so quickly and eliminate tons of potential incoming damage. Secondaries with the ability to knock out a few extra mobs would have a huge impact on certain sets that lack AoE while possibly not effecting AoE heavy sets as much.
2. Has more hard mitigation / emergency powers.
   1. Willpower on SO's was able to provide decent enough sustainability to allow you to only die if you were not on your toes. This allowed sets with mitigation to have noticeable impacts on performance as you layered their effects onto WP for great survival, but sets without mitigation or at least high enough (AoE) DPS to eliminate incoming damage suffered. A set that could more directly stop damage or recover reliably without need to retreat and regenerate would provide a different metric for a few sets, and such click powers would also break up attack chains.

Off the top of my head the following fit the bill:

• Bio Armor (has everything)
• Dark Armor (Damage Aura, CC auras, HP Drain)
• Electric Armor (Click Heal, Damage Aura, End Drain, Recharge passive)
• Fiery Aura (Click Heal, Damage Aura, End Drain, AoE Attack, secondary build up)
• Ice Armor (Damage Aura, Debuff Aura, End Drain, Self Heal)
• Rad Aura (offers more AoEs, a click heal, absorb, and even +Rech)

 

Of these.... Ice Armor actually looks very interesting to me and I don't think we talked about it much. It is primarily a defense set, which gives it a dynamic where it can simply not take damage due to luck that can help certain sets per run. On top of this, it has a great debuff power in Chilling Embrace which keeps foes near you with it's -Slow and the -Rech and -Dam will lower incoming DPS. Icicles is also a decent damage aura by the looks of it to help with AoE damage. 

 

Ice also comes with 3 emergency clicks. An End Drain on a 1min (30s) recharge, a self heal and +MaxHp on a 6min (3min) recharge, and an actually usable T9 that makes you essentially god mode for 30s on a 5min (2.5min... technically 2min) recharge that could all be used a few times per run. 

 

Thoughts @Infinitum, @Sir Myshkin, @Demon Shell, @Hopeling?

 

 

Edit: scratch Ice Armor, without constant regen the hits that do land add up...

 

Edited November 26, 2019 by Galaxy Brain

[Sir Myshkin]

29 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Thoughts

To quote myself from earlier:

On 11/22/2019 at 1:29 AM, Sir Myshkin said:

"...or also look at the potential of Ice Armor or Radiation Armor. They're all kind of on that polar-opposite scale. Ice would give access to a toggle damage aura, but also a mitigation aura with Chilling Embrace, and also an in-set endurance correction tool."

Ice Armor was my #2 of top 3 most likely choices, makes, can almost match SR's 33% (technically can exceed it potentially for 15/s at a shot on SO's with stacked Energy Absorption). Likely scenario is leading with Icy Bastion in order to setup Energy Absorption cycles and then leaving it as a panic button. This is the flat opposite in terms of Resistances and Defense (trading 35% S/L Resists for 30% S/L Def). Less regen to work with, but more max HP potential (about 400 more, but ~18% regen versus 43% on WP outside of Icy Bastion). Enemy damage types are really important in this scenario as anything Fire is going to be a free shot on Ice Armor at the SO level. The ability to buff Smashing or Lethal defense is also going to be a lot more important because it can now be the difference of completely shutting off that damage type from being an issue. This thing is going to want to be in a group of 10 or more to really hit its stride, but it'll be dangerous.

 

As always, for your consideration:

Spoiler

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.962
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Claws
Secondary Power Set: Ice Armor
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Body Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Strike -- Empty(A), Empty(31), Empty(31), Empty(33), Empty(33), Empty(33)
Level 1: Frozen Armor -- EndRdx(A), DefBuff(29), DefBuff(31), DefBuff(46)
Level 2: Hoarfrost -- RechRdx(A), RechRdx(25), RechRdx(25), Heal(27), Heal(27), Heal(29)
Level 4: Chilling Embrace -- EndRdx(A), EndRdx(5), Slow(5)
Level 6: Slash -- Empty(A), Empty(7), Empty(7), Empty(19), Empty(19), Empty(23)
Level 8: Spin -- Empty(A), Empty(9), Empty(9), Empty(11), Empty(11), Empty(17)
Level 10: Wet Ice -- EndRdx(A)
Level 12: Follow Up -- Empty(A), Empty(13), Empty(13), Empty(15), Empty(15), Empty(17)
Level 14: Kick -- Empty(A)
Level 16: Glacial Armor -- EndRdx(A), DefBuff(39), DefBuff(39), DefBuff(40)
Level 18: Focus -- Empty(A), Empty(36), Empty(37), Empty(37), Empty(37), Empty(39)
Level 20: Energy Absorption -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(21), DefBuff(21), RechRdx(42), RechRdx(48), RechRdx(48)
Level 22: Tough -- EndRdx(A), ResDam(43), ResDam(45), ResDam(50)
Level 24: Weave -- EndRdx(A), DefBuff(43), DefBuff(43), DefBuff(48)
Level 26: Hasten -- RechRdx(A)
Level 28: Permafrost -- ResDam(A)
Level 30: Super Speed -- EndRdx(A)
Level 32: Shockwave -- Empty(A), Empty(34), Empty(34), Empty(34), Empty(36), Empty(36)
Level 35: Icicles -- Acc(A), Dmg(45), Dmg(46), Dmg(46), EndRdx(50), EndRdx(50)
Level 38: Icy Bastion -- ResDam(A), ResDam(40), Heal(40), RechRdx(42), RechRdx(42), RechRdx(45)
Level 41: Conserve Power -- RechRdx(A)
Level 44: Physical Perfection -- EndMod(A)
Level 47: Confront -- Taunt(A)
Level 49: Combat Jumping -- DefBuff(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run(A)
Level 2: Health -- Heal(A), Heal(3), Heal(23)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod(A), EndMod(3)
------------

 

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[Infinitum]

9 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Off the top of my head the following fit the bill:

• Bio Armor (has everything)
• Dark Armor (Damage Aura, CC auras, HP Drain)
• Electric Armor (Click Heal, Damage Aura, End Drain, Recharge passive)
• Fiery Aura (Click Heal, Damage Aura, End Drain, AoE Attack, secondary build up)
• Ice Armor (Damage Aura, Debuff Aura, End Drain, Self Heal)
• Rad Aura (offers more AoEs, a click heal, absorb, and even +Rech)

I think it should be SR or dark, both are insanely survivable, but heavy on end use.

 

It would give you the cross metric as to how each set works/performs under stress.

 

Elec, rad and fire would all be similar choices with a click heal and end siphon but honestly aside from the clicks breaking up the attack chain will not feel much different from willpower.  It might be neat to see how the clicks powers disrupt attack chains and flow, but I don't think any of them are the polar opposite of willpower.

 

SR or dark is what I would go with.

[Demon Shell]

I would have liked to avoid /Ice because, unlike Power Sink and other similar powers, Energy Absorption is a proactive ability due to the +def. The entire point of picking a set with a click sustain power is that some sets (like TW) will need it and have their DPS reduced in using it. Other sets that don't need it, won't use it. You can compare those results to the Willpower test and measure the difference between a constant +rec and a sustain click. Does, for example, Claw or Staff begin to close the gap with TW (assuming they don't need extra sustain)?

 

But it is the nature of Energy Absorption to use it when its available for survival. Apart from impacting TW the most, every set is going to use it and have similar reductions to DPS with a similar boost to sustain.

 

Based on your criteria and the sets you listed: Bio, Rad, or Fiery.

 

I won't pretend to know anything more about Bio or Rad than what Mids shows me (I have no experience with either). They have additional AoE options and passive Recovery like Willpower.

 

Fiery is going to be weird. And ultimately sets that need extra sustain are going to use Consume, and sets that don't need the sustain are typically going to take any AoE available (provided enough targets are present). So, like Energy Absorption, every set is probably going to use Consume anyway. That defeats the purpose, in that area (though maybe the impact of an AoE Armor is a higher priority).

 

There isn't a perfect choice. A concession is going to have to be made somewhere.

[Infinitum]

8 hours ago, Demon Shell said:

I would have liked to avoid /Ice because, unlike Power Sink and other similar powers, Energy Absorption is a proactive ability due to the +def. The entire point of picking a set with a click sustain power is that some sets (like TW) will need it and have their DPS reduced in using it. Other sets that don't need it, won't use it. You can compare those results to the Willpower test and measure the difference between a constant +rec and a sustain click. Does, for example, Claw or Staff begin to close the gap with TW (assuming they don't need extra sustain)?

 

But it is the nature of Energy Absorption to use it when its available for survival. Apart from impacting TW the most, every set is going to use it and have similar reductions to DPS with a similar boost to sustain.

 

Based on your criteria and the sets you listed: Bio, Rad, or Fiery.

 

I won't pretend to know anything more about Bio or Rad than what Mids shows me (I have no experience with either). They have additional AoE options and passive Recovery like Willpower.

 

Fiery is going to be weird. And ultimately sets that need extra sustain are going to use Consume, and sets that don't need the sustain are typically going to take any AoE available (provided enough targets are present). So, like Energy Absorption, every set is probably going to use Consume anyway. That defeats the purpose, in that area (though maybe the impact of an AoE Armor is a higher priority).

 

There isn't a perfect choice. A concession is going to have to be made somewhere.

well, again the point isnt so much as to whether or not it can sustain TW, but where it puts TW in line with the other sets.

 

this is to get a baseline of how the melee sets compare, so if you cherry pick every set that can run TW without issue there isnt much point in testing anything else.

 

However if you run a set that is demanding - and just because a armor set is demanding doesnt make it bad - it will show you how a demanding set like TW falls into line with the other melee sets on a demanding armor set.

 

thats why i want to see how it acts on other armor sets without end management compared to other melee sets.

 

Its a valid point to see how it acts with a set without end management like dark or SR - when compared to the other melee sets.

 

GB has done a great job so far, above and beyond what i would even have the time to do, but without a comparative on the other end of the spectrum it wont mean as much.

[Galaxy Brain]

Iirc, the only sets that had end issues were TW, WM, and MA. I recall they all actually had the end bar dip significantly though I think only MA had to wait for end to recover. Though this is just from memory.

 

Looking at my safety rankings, I feel any set that had a 0 or 1 would not see signficant difference with other sets compared to the 2s and 3s, at least in relation to their WP results. Added survival and safety will allow those sets to be more consistent in a way that is significantly better than the others.

 

Sort of the same deal for the top performers with AoE when paired with a secondary with AoE damage powers. Staff with a damage aura will not have as drastic a change as KM or DM.

 

 

[Demon Shell]

If you're sure, then I'd go full AoE click to bridge as much distance as possible between Dark Melee and TW. Looking at the numbers, that seems to be /Rad.

 

If TW and a few other sets have trouble sustaining at the SO level with 2-3 sustain-less armor sets under the condition that they don't use any Power Pools (and with SR and Shield heavily benefiting from Aid Self/Field Medic synergy) then who cares? There are tons of underperforming combinations in this game at the SO level. And if TW drops out of the top spot on /Dark (which may not even happen given that, at the SO level, /Dark can turn Murky, CoD, or both off for the vast majority of encounters with little difference in survival), then I doubt that drop will be very far.

 

My only concern in sustain was the impact of click sustain versus passive +rec. If the answer is "practicality nothing" then it's not worth a dedicated trial to investigate sustain issues.

[Galaxy Brain]

Thinking on this more, I feel a good majority of sets probably wont change much with other sets, at least compared to another.

 

Claws and Staff would probably have the same comparative performance compared to one another for example on most sets, except maybe /dark where claws' end discount that is baked in would be compared to staff in its soul form.

 

War Mace, TW and MA all had endurance issues

 

Fire and Savage were both very unsafe. Save in particular has endurance and recharge bonuses which could make huge differences with non passive secondaries. 

 

Kinetic and Dark both have unique damage boosts which could radically swing behavior depending on the secondary.

 

Dual Blades and Elec also have potential that is squashed due to mitigation issues. Different secondaries could have much better results.

 

IMO, the other sets are all probably secondary-neutral (aside from shield pairings) where they probably perform about as well no matter what.

 

 

This said, if we focus on just these sets listed above, we could try SR, Ice, Fire and Dark for 4 sets of other runs?

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Thinking on this more, I feel a good majority of sets probably wont change much with other sets, at least compared to another.

 

Claws and Staff would probably have the same comparative performance compared to one another for example on most sets, except maybe /dark where claws' end discount that is baked in would be compared to staff in its soul form.

 

War Mace, TW and MA all had endurance issues

 

Fire and Savage were both very unsafe. Save in particular has endurance and recharge bonuses which could make huge differences with non passive secondaries. 

 

Kinetic and Dark both have unique damage boosts which could radically swing behavior depending on the secondary.

 

Dual Blades and Elec also have potential that is squashed due to mitigation issues. Different secondaries could have much better results.

 

IMO, the other sets are all probably secondary-neutral (aside from shield pairings) where they probably perform about as well no matter what.

 

 

This said, if we focus on just these sets listed above, we could try SR, Ice, Fire and Dark for 4 sets of other runs?

I seriously think you deserve a medal for all this even if I don't get the desired result.

[Galaxy Brain]

Heh, thanks @Infinitum! I just wanna see the world learn 😉

 

Anywho, Pineapple has been down but I did some initial test runs with Katana/SR and Katana/Ice as controls since IMO it was the best set on SO's without any "gimmicks".

 

SR was about 16% slower on average for Katana (My WP avg is 5:41:52, SR was 6:36:09), while you were relatively safe due to 1 divine avalanche letting you go way past softcap, the hits that did land hit hard and did not recover quickly which actually lead to 1 DNF thanks to RNGesus. The main slowdown for SR though was predictably the endurance usage which lead me to using only the lower damage attacks at times, on top of having no taunt aura to keep foes near you and making you chase runners.

Ice is about 6% faster so far (5:22 avg) thanks to Icicles, slowing runners, and the ability to get immediate End Returns. However, it is noticeably squishier due to the long recharge on Icy Bastion + Hoarfrost for emergency defenses (and the slows only effect post alpha hits), on top of Divine Avalanche not stacking well vs the Smashing Damage enemies given the Typed defense of /Ice.

[Galaxy Brain]

Big bump here, but since Pineapple got Thanos snapped I have yet to been able to test further. The last post showed no substantial difference from those two secondaries, but it got me thinking..... Would it be worth repeating these tests with the only difference being the secondary for a "Secondary Comparison"?

[Duck-Smokes-Quack]

On 2/23/2020 at 8:02 PM, Galaxy Brain said:

Big bump here, but since Pineapple got Thanos snapped I have yet to been able to test further. The last post showed no substantial difference from those two secondaries, but it got me thinking..... Would it be worth repeating these tests with the only difference being the secondary for a "Secondary Comparison"?

Yes!

Would absolutley love to see a secondary comparison!
Not for damage, since its rather obvious that /Fire would win, followed by everything with damage auras or +dam abilities 

But for survivability. There was a post on the old forums where /Inv, /Dark, /Regen and /SR were compared and showed some amazing results.


If secondaries were compared I personally be most keen to see how /SR fairs. People seem to love or hate it, and its gets bullied a lot on the forums. I would love to see some numbers to either confirm/deny the reputation it has (I am sure everyone feels the same way about at least one of their fav sets too!)

I predict that if someone were to compare the secondaries for scrappers from a DPS Pov, the biggest thing is going to be taunt auras ... or the lack of on certain sets. I am not sure why the devs balanced in this way and I think its something that maybe needs addressing. 
Either give all scrappers a very weak taunt arua, or give none of them a taunt aura is my personal view (yours may differ)


From a survivability Pov I would predict sets with a blend of Res/De, Self heal, +regen to reign supreme.
I expect /Inv to be top or close too it, maybe /Ice deserves to be there too (on paper, not sure about actual performance), maybe some other suprises in there too!

Who knows, but I would love to see secondaries compared 

[Sakura Tenshi]

it's absolutely f-ing surreal to imagine Katana could be called a toptier set. Yeah, it's got fast animations and good recharge but holy hell, with how heavily resisted lethal it, it feels like I'd be better off spamming brawl sometimes. But then again my perceptions are painted from my experiences on live, I had paired it with /SR (which to my understanding is kind of a weak set to pair katana with) and I lacked resources or knowledge for a strong IO build. (though, you mentioned using SOs)

[Call Me Awesome]

On 2/27/2020 at 11:26 AM, Duck-Smokes-Quack said:

From a survivability Pov I would predict sets with a blend of Res/De, Self heal, +regen to reign supreme.
I expect /Inv to be top or close too it, maybe /Ice deserves to be there too (on paper, not sure about actual performance), maybe some other suprises in there too!

At a guess based on the Scrappers I've taken to 50 I'd put the durability prize on Shield.  Due to the HP limitations of a Scrapper vs a Tanker Defense gives more bang than Resistance.  Invuln is certainly a capable set for Scrappers but it's not as good relatively as it is for a Tanker.  SR would also be decent but not up with Shield since it's pretty much a one trick pony and once you soft cap both the advantage goes to Shield.

 

Unless paired with a set like Broadsword I'd expect Regen to bring up the rear.  It's great if you can build significant defense however.

 

My guess, assuming a good IO build, would be something like this:

Shield

SR, Ice, Invuln

Dark, Elec

Fire

Regen